Title
How to tell apart a toxic/unhealthy Type/person from a healthy/non toxic one?
Title
If they attempt to ask you for money and want to use you as a tool
If they always focus on their problems and aren’t interested in yours
If they belittle you and put you down
If they gossip about others and put other people down
If they act and speak like selfish ass hats than they must be it
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Just a guess, but it might be whenever a person overindulges their ignoring function. People are skilled at their ignoring function but, f*ck. Seems like a good idea sometimes, but not really expedient
I’m curious about your reasoning on thisOriginally Posted by Stray Cat
CH-EII-1Ne | 4(w5)96 sx/so | ELVF | INFP
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Your ignoring opposes your lead. When you engage in it, it "feels" similar to your lead (it actually is your lead but with opposite orientation) but without the psychological satisfaction. Because there's no psychological satisfaction, you must force or stress yourself to "externally" obtain that satisfaction.
This is purely my own theory on the matter. We're good at the ignoring function, so we use it. But while using the lead gives internal satisfaction, overusing ignoring means seeking out that same satisfaction through some form of validation (or proof that it's actually valuable)
The person overuses the base function so that the real person seems to disappear. And the suggestive function gets projected and negative.
Jung explains this for each function at the end of each section in chapter 10.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Overusing the base function causes psychological unhealth? I dunno.
If that were actually true, nearly everybody on earth would be considered unhealthy psychologically. Everybody is tempted to overuse the base function at some point during the day & thus those same folk will eventually project the suggestive. This is why the suggestive is called, "dual-seeking". For example the INTj will, very likely, overuse their Ti. That's why they, then, seek out Fe somehow. To call that toxic is kinda reaching for Jung.
It's natural for folk to overuse the base or "hero" function. It's the most comfortable to use. I agree that it isn't optimal to overuse it, but the point in having a base is that you may overuse it at times.
I dunno. I get Jung's point. I really do, man. But, In my opinion, overusing the base function can't be the basis for psychological unhealth. That's like suggesting some random ENFj is toxic by virtue of them overusing Fe. Sounds reasonable but kinda nah, also
I gave the reference and you or anybody can look it up and check his descriptions and arguments and take a few days or weeks to read it through and think about it.
The base function is the most comfortable to use, that's true. But when the person seems to identify with the base function to the point that the real personality disappears, that's neurotic. When I say "identify" I mean it literally, in the case of Fe the person becomes nothing more than a constant flow of opinions or manipulations that come and go. There is "nobody home". That's very different from healthy Fe use that is warm and social.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
As a disclaimer, I'm not arguing against your logic or intelligence here.
I hear ya but Fe isn't, in it's essence, just warm & social. It has flaws naturally within it which is why Ti is required to balance it out. I do get what you mean by solely identifying with the lead to the point of detriment. However, people in many ways actually are their lead function. The lead is the program & the other functions are just there to support it. Saying "the real self disappears" because somebody identifies too much with the lead is strange to me. The real self is too tied to the lead for the real self to disappear for that reason
A person might not be likable when they go lead overload & they might annoy others but that doesn't mean the real self has disappeared or they are psychologically unhealthy. Just means they need to f'ing balance. Guess I just disagree with Jung here. I've seen folk overuse their lead like you're saying. Never got the impression the self went MIA
The lead is the program within the type structure. But that doesn't mean that we are the lead function. The ego-personality is something else. I can choose to use the lead function, I have a tool that I can use, but I am not the tool.
Jung has finer distinctions than we are used to, and socionics is limited to the technical and lacks a lot of the psychology of how real individuals with types function. Yet people here are interested in the psychology. That's why I suggest people read Jung first.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Base centric people are not toxic. They have transcendent the society hence they are people what you would call space cadets and such aka harmless nutjobs. Toxicity is usually manifestation of overstretched creative.
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We'll go in circles arguing this same point. Even if you did use another function, its purpose is to ultimately . serve the lead function in someway. Guessing it's a spectrum & that people are something like 80% their lead but the actual number is arbitrary. Point is, if folk were really honest, any function they engage in is subservient to meet the goals of the lead.
I get your argument. Nobody wants to admit they are their lead. Sounds primitive. Just been my experience that its the lead which ultimately drives a human being's actions. I'm not the authority on this, it's only my take. Believe what you like.
oh lol
Enjoy the sex and chips I guess? ahaha
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Jung types is psyche accentuation. Semi-smartness, semi-blindness.
The lesser expressed type is - the healthier the human is from type point.
The general approach - if a human does what leads to suffering of him and/or others, in case there is no reasonable basis for such actions or this basis is not enough for the suffering done, - it's a pathologic behavior. When such behavior can be linked with Jung type - it's "unhealthy" types related behavior.
Such is possible when type is accentuated, when in an action exists inadequate overvalue of one region (mainly strong) and/or undervalue of other region (mainly weak).
For example.
T type may be _too_ emotionally rude when notices a logical mistake. As it's possibly to say more polite and to get the same result.
F type may _too_ ignore logical analysis in choosing a product by its traits, following "just because I liked it".
The opposite, but with similar reason - dumbness in weak regions and the lack of balance in decisions.
S type may naively trust to something based on imagination (N) too much. Alike to trust pop magazines' astrology (N) too seriously.
N types may be too infantile in S-related stuff. For example, to trust in strange diets too much, so ignore factual body feeling (S) and then geting harm to the health.
Optimum (healthy) decision needs conscious usage of all 8 functions (4 by your values, at least) in equal degree, where all of them have skills on average social norms level or higher.
It's important not only to find logically (T) better decision but also what emotional (F) effect following to this will do on people. Important not only to have a general idea (N), but also to deal with concrete details of physical world (S) to make it.
This 4 regions are equal. While Jung types is when 2 of them are falsly taken as primary regions.
I'd like there to be a simple answer but I wouldn't believe in a simple answer to this.
Online, you can find reasons as to why an over reliance or lack thereof on base, ignoring, HA, demo, PoLR, role, DS can cause toxicity in people. It varies considering context, past, and whatnot. Creative seems to be the least often mentioned.
Overall, I think any type can develop a weird and nasty complex around any function.
I guess paying attention to your own subjective experience is the best guide, be it feelings, intuition, logic, or sensations. Learning your own alert system.
Maybe the word immorality needs to be introduced in this instance. Being an Se-dom myself I could rationalize seducing a wife on every path I walked simply cause she was an "object I desired to conquer".
But, shit, while adultery ain't an illegal offense but it's still immoral as fuck. Se would still be my real self regardless but somebody else's wife is somebody else's wife, may be even some kid's mom.
I guess as an adult you gotta make wise choices for the sake of society regardless of your fuckin' type.
I'll once again tap the new sign I've discovered. Attachment issues. Any type that lacks them will be a healthy example of it, and by direct implication any type that has them will be an example of an unhealthy example. Whatever other Socionics related mumbo-jumbo you care to reference will flow directly back into that dichotomy. Whatever functions they value too much or little for their type will tie back into how badly their attachment issues are either resolved or unresolved and, in the latter case, how badly they remain unresolved.
The sad irony is that toxic people are like that because they deeply desire to, well, not be toxic. The slut/manwhore/individual with attachment issues just wants to be loved and indeed does truly and deeply love someone, but they also subconsciously believe themselves to be unworthy and unwarranting of the reciprocation of their very intense and real feelings. This is not true. I would expand on this, but I'm also, yet again, operating on minimal sleep and shitty food. If anyone wants me to write an essay/do a rant just say the word and I will once I have a proper amount of sleep and some actual quality food coursing through my system.
Seems you get that what is "moral" is in truth a universal concept. In our heart of hearts we know, if we really admit it, what is "right" vs. what is "wrong".
You may desire a girl in a carnal or even a platonic sense, but you also know about the potential complicating variables. It is too much for us finite beings to comprehend all variables so you rightly made the conclusions that were ultimately relevant. Furthermore, you rightly abhor the dark possibility where you become a literal homewrecker.
I salute you for demonstrating a remarkable level of moral cognizance. I am sadly wallowing in a pit lacking of it because the pay is good and I got family members in need of dosh... Retail is the domain of Mammon but I am making the best of a bad situation.
You're working retail? How is that causing your 'moral cognizance' to deteriorate?
how would it not??? lol all service industry jobs are soul killers, i wish this were more widely understood.
the more the soul/vitality of a person is drained the more they struggle to retain their cohesion in all aspects of their person. like I wish it was just called out for what it is but I guess that would make too many ppl feel guilty.
The other day I was at the grocery store I used to work at years and years ago and saw this deli worker guy limping his way out of the break room. I felt bad bc I asked him for a fork a few times I was there buying sushi and I could see it all, how he had to put in so much energy to be warm to me, the effort of getting the fork, and I know the job pays shit. I noticed when I worked there the deli workers who'd been there for years had all these health issues, and it was clear to me their job was killing them. Like this is the reality, in the end the service jobs do more than drain your spirit, they actually shorten your life. It's just the truth
The signs: anytime there are people working to serve others with a smile, none of those ppl are free. They don't like being servants, it's that a brutal economic force leaves them with this, so they die slowly, too slow to make those they serve uncomfortable.
Eta and imagine how you can get ahead when you are left with this energy and self-esteem deficit day after day in these jobs, the toll accumulating, how will you find the vitality you need when it's being drained this severely? It's nigh impossible for most ppl. This IS the US class system right before our eyes. For a lot of ppl mobility is a pipe dream, an idea, a dream, not something truly in their reach.
Last edited by marooned; 05-23-2021 at 07:57 AM.
I agree that having to work face to face with customers is the worst (I thought it was me due being Fe polr). I also must say white american customers are worst even on the phone. I do enjoy Customer Service though, unless it's for white ppl in the US (no offense intended).
That is a difference, I hate customer service, and I got the sense deli guy didn't hate it, but still everything was telling me he fit the same pattern. I could see this drain on him and it didn't matter that he was good and altruistic, the drain was still there, sucking the life out of him. Meh.
Like I remember a lot of the deli workers there were more nice and friendly and ppl person than me when I worked there, but they all had these issues with their bodies they complained about constantly and ofc the workplace health insurance was shit but ppl were supposed to feel like they should be blessed there even was work place health insurance. Some of them were even too nice to attribute what was happening to them as working 20 years at this place that out them on their feet all the time with these limited break times and managers that tried to stop them from taking breaks and discouraged taking sick time, ugh, it's all so sickening.
That explains a lot when it comes to toxic people I know and toxic behaviors in myself.
The lead is four dimensional meaning folk generally get the implications of how that function effects sh*t over time
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...y-of-Functions
Folk who overindulge the lead are unlikable, annoying not toxic. They probably could use influence from the creative & suggestion from the DS
If you're legit toxic through using your lead you ought to reconsider if you've typed yourself wrong
I guess behavior is not accounted for by the average range of type related behavior, their (larger) culture (such as the city/state/country they live in but not necessarily familial culture - those can sometimes be toxic); and just generally unreasonable and aversive behavior. Many people with PDs don’t think they are the problem, it’s the rest of the world.
and yes this would tie into extreme base accentuation because callous, cruel, cold Te leads I’m sure exist. But they are Fi valued/suggestive right? It doesn’t matter at this point, sometimes there’s seemingly no coming back because they refuse to change.
I think people are capable of antagonizing their own suggestive. In Te leads’ case this shows up as something like narcissism about their superior logical abilities or something, and that feeling then is only going to dilute that, so why bother.
Last edited by necrosebud; 05-23-2021 at 04:07 PM.
CH-EII-1Ne | 4(w5)96 sx/so | ELVF | INFP
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Many times the truly toxic people are people who criticize others as being toxic all the time and/or portray a faux-image of pure non-toxicity, but they themselves really want to do something immoral and fucked up. They just fancy themselves as more clever at not getting caught. ((and society can be so stupid about punishing certain toxicities over others.)) They project the 'you just wanted to get away with it' thing onto others. Like Regina Hurt in 16types Adventures.
You can't go by external reputations because those are things just easily exploited by the Arthur Michells and Bill Cosbys of the world. The person I'm talking about also had a 'squeaky clean Te reputation' lol.
Here is why Fi is so important and why you should trust it- because no matter how innocent or good somebody is at appearing , if your Fi feels off about them- well as long as you put Fi into the proper perspective you can realize it's based on your own personal disgust sometimes and nothing objective. Because I mean not that it's super likely or anything- but it could be a thing where they want to be creepy and fucked up torturous to you and you alone and you are the perfect victim for them and their sick twisted ways. Too many other victims would raise too much suspicion, leave a trail too much- and you are their creepy sadistic game and it is fine to scream and yell out with all your Fi how it's not okay.
And sometimes it's just a purely Fi thing. It has no objectivity to it- and what's 'toxic and unhealthy' to one person isn't necessarily true to others. Obviously there are things society pretty much agrees on are unhealthy and toxic. Like sadistic bullying, torture, rape, molestation, violence for no reason other than violence, sexual abuse, cruelty to animals etc. But many times it's just these dramatic and kinda petty soap opera Fi-ish personality flaws that you don't like in others. Some unhealthy Fi ego are bad about acting like what they don't like in other people is some objective moral truth that is universally agreed upon. But Fi should still be trusted cuz of the aforementioned reasons.
I feel like a toxic person aaaah. Signs are I talk about how toxic I am and provide warnings, it's not I believe that I'm truly evil deep down, but I have a lot of problems physically and emotionally and I don't know if I'm going to make it, or for how much longer. I feel in death's grip and I don't know if it will let me go.
My SLI ex from ages ago thought I was too clingy, emotionally unbalanced, emotionally manipulative, and physically unaware/lacking. I take these criticisms to heart even still bc the end of that relationship hurt a lot for a very long time.
The feeling of not being enough still pervades
my good side is devotion; but i live in the corruption of it and i don't know if i can banish the darkness. i surrendered to it because it was like another person i could be with. it held me when nothing else would. so in that sense, all these years, i've not been single.
I just wear a gas-mask every time I log onto the forum. Problem solved
It depends on behaviour of patterns. If they tend to have a shitty behaviour of patterns regardless of the circumstances, toxic person. If it is situational in life and a person not being perfect but tries their best and it relatively healthy majority of the time, non-toxic person.
Type would be of little use although some types are better at hiding their baggage than others. One needs a good memory to make sure that the life histories, beliefs and opinions being told to you remain consistent over time. You also almost have to treat people somewhat the same as buying a second-hand car so do your research before you hand over money and the slicker (or more mysterious) the salespeople appear to be, the greater the scrutiny required. However, I'm fairly selective but I had to end a relationship with a person that had mental health issues, which were absolutely undetectable until they violently erupted one day. More than a few ISTps that I've known have attracted people with troubling issues; I guess they look like strong types who can bear a burden and although they're usually quite aware of their surroundings, many of them seem to concentrate only on the physical and what's superficially obvious.
a.k.a. I/O
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