Quote Originally Posted by Expat
Quote Originally Posted by pesto
Kraus' post made me think about this too, how phoniness is what's most annoying to me (in any type) and how this has had me wonder about the INFj-ESTj duality aswell. Maybe I need to meet more ESTjs, but I wouldn't trust any of those I know to any large extent.
ESTjs have as dual-seeking and as role function, just like ENTjs. So they also prefer to and it's the sincere from INFjs that they need. So if you think that ESTjs are particularly phony, I have to conclude that those "ESTjs" are really ISTjs or ESTps.
Or they could be any other type, like INFj. When it comes to ESTj I think it's that I have yet to discovery any kind of "depth" in these people.

One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling.
Actually Introverted Feeling types might be inclined to say that, yes, this shows that you are incapable of true feelings.
Well, not necessarily. In the ENTp I can spot other ways in which feelings or commitment are manifested. And I can see how they actually have more feelings than they want to aknowledge when they try to rationalise things that can't be.

Expat, your observations are very accurate, but when you try and describe how feelers experience something, you paint a much too harsh and rigid picture. That is harmful to us and I wish you'd stop interpet our intentions. You descriptions are often belittling. As INFj I'm often seen as both inconfident and gutless, which is far from the truth. I just don't have the need to prove myself. It would be refreshing, to say the least, if a site dedicated to the understanding of different viewpoints would indeed provide that, and not just common misconceptions made into rules.