LIE-LSI Mirage/Illusionary relations (ISTj & ENTj)

[lkdhf qkb]

I think she's talking about personal relationships.

Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
(For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)

[Ave]

Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
(For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)

Well, I'm not currently sure if I'm LIE or EIE, but I do this. I do agree with you that it's better to talk things out rather than be supposing things most of the time, but at the same time, people don't always tell the truth and also they do not always know themselves very well.

I'm not sure what you mean with this: "And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business" that would depend on what the something is and who that someone is (to the LIE), no?

I also kinda hate being told I am imagining things, when there are inconsistencies in someone's behaviors or words.

So while I agree that Ni egos tend to sometimes over-project motives onto other people's intents when we don't have the information, something which just talking it out could resolve, I also feel like I am a person perfectly willing to talk things out first rather than just assume things about others scheming...but others have not always been so willing to do so. I'm thinking of a relationship with a particular person here, I don't want to talk about it much anymore, because I've beaten this horse to death on here, but I feel like is being distant and when I try to talk it out, she tells me everything is fine. I'm not gonna get into the details, but her behavior doesn't seem like everything is fine between us. Even if she didn't want to talk to me anymore, she isn't even saying that, either.

So yeah, paranoid, perhaps, but I also wish people would be more open and not tell me bullshit.

[lkdhf qkb]

Well, I'm not currently sure if I'm LIE or EIE, but I do this. I do agree with you that it's better to talk things out rather than be supposing things most of the time, but at the same time, people don't always tell the truth and also they do not always know themselves very well.

Good points, I also think it's good to assess people's intentions independently from what they say. In an intimate relationship however I see this as driving a wedge between people and actually destroying the good in the relationship. Trust should be there before being intimate, the reverse only brings heartbreak.

I'm not sure what you mean with this: "And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business" that would depend on what the something is and who that someone is (to the LIE), no?

You're right of course I guess that's my personal "innocent until proven guilty" policy. Once the trust is broken, there's no going back though. I don't allow anyone to hurt me twice. Works well in delta, I'm not so sure about gammas.

I also kinda hate being told I am imagining things, when there are inconsistencies in someone's behaviors or words.

So while I agree that Ni egos tend to sometimes over-project motives onto other people's intents when we don't have the information, something which just talking it out could resolve, I also feel like I am a person perfectly willing to talk things out first rather than just assume things about others scheming...but others have not always been so willing to do so. I'm thinking of a relationship with a particular person here, I don't want to talk about it much anymore, because I've beaten this horse to death on here, but I feel like is being distant and when I try to talk it out, she tells me everything is fine. I'm not gonna get into the details, but her behavior doesn't seem like everything is fine between us. Even if she didn't want to talk to me anymore, she isn't even saying that, either.
So yeah, paranoid, perhaps, but I also wish people would be more open and not tell me bullshit.

I'd guess you're LIE. I'm sorry to hear that bro, I've been there too. At some point I dumped her because the levels of trust were just too low for me, and I was lazy to look up what was wrong and take responsability for solving it when I didn't sense any willingness to even talk about anything from her. Not that I think that's the way to go though, my action wasn't very mature and the problem could probably have been solved with some couple therapy

[nanashi]

Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
(For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)

LIE and EIE do get in people's heads. That's our work. We're built for ideas.

It's not some nefarious thing. And it isn't inherently invasive nor is it inherently cruel.

there is a difference between saying someone is doing an evil act and someone IS evil. and us protecting people, when someone is or is not being hyperbolic in accusing the people of BEING evil, is a good thing.

[lkdhf qkb]

there is a difference between saying someone is doing an evil act and someone IS evil. and us protecting people, when someone is or is not being hyperbolic in accusing the people of BEING evil, is a good thing.

What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
And how are you protecting those people? Through acts! Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?

[Adam Strange]

What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
And how are you protecting those people? Through acts! Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?

Vengeance!

Yep. That's me.

[nanashi]

Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

I just got back from listening to my IEI friend talk about her various griefs for hours. I loved it. I really enjoy being the friend people know they can share their shit with. I love learning about them and their needs. I love being supportive for them. I love applying what they learn in my own life. AND THAT IS VERY GAMMA. It's in the wikisocion articles on gammas and how they prefer to talk about life.

I listened to my EII friend for an hour doing the same thing yesterday afternoon. 'I always feel better when I talk with you.'

I had a maybe 3 hours discussion on life and his relationships with my ESTJ friend in a messaging app LAST NIGHT.

I guess if you had a few gammas at your job that behaved the way yours did, you might think we're all business and abusive. We're not.

I don't relate to that at all ...that 'not listening' at all.

People have sought me ought for the last two decades to confide in me and get relief in sharing what they need to.

And at my job this summer, I am the one people come to when they don't go to HR, and I listen and commiserate, and then I talk with them about getting their needs met. And then I go do it.

And when I was teaching tech, the kids came to me when an aide was being coercive and denigrating to them because I paused more than the other teachers were and made special efforts to encourage them to speak up and get me if they couldn't handle something, including when I disagreed with their not correcting a teacher. I explained that it helps me when they share what they see and that the first person who could find a mistake I made and shared it with me during class would get to take the class toy home. And I disagreed that they needed to call me Ms. Nanashi's Lastname. The other teacher down the hall was SERIOUSLY upset by that. "They need to know who's the teacher."
'I'm almost six feet tall. They know who the teacher is.' I want them to understand how the ability really functions and to get that I have a first name, nanashi, and that I don't think I'm above them or their dictator.
I am more concerned with them developing self-advocacy skills, getting that I am human and thus fallible though good-intentioned and willing to grow and correct my behavior, knowing I'm their ally (not just their authoritarian leader), and they are co-creating the world we're in.



LIE are not Mr. Burns. We're shit at somethings, but we're VERY invested in peoples' lives and can be incredibly gregarious, loyal, supportive, and self-sacrificing. We don't only have characteristics of cruel, abusive leaders.

I have seen myself motivate and support people into excellence in their work or learning. AND A TON OF IT WAS VIA LISTENING TO THEM.


on LIE and EIE:
"These types like to find internally contradictory people, "dig" in them and create in them internal harmony and mood. They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts. "

and

"Search for internally contradictory situations, like to grasp their essence. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls."

Aushra Augusta


AND

"as a suggestive (5th) function (LIE and LSE)
The individual longs for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust, sustained by shared sentiments and ethical beliefs that make external expression of emotions unnecessary. The individual is inclined to take first steps"

"People of these types strive to find themselves in environment where they like everything and everyone. If they don't like something or someone - this is a reason to change their environment. Very receptive when he is told how someone else should be treated. When he does not know how to treat someone, feels uncomfortable - needs those who can explain this to him. Looks for a place where he would be allowed to communicate his assessments and attitudes. If this is allowed - the place seems welcoming to him. In this regard, he is very mistrustful and and often tries to rely on some objective data. Very suggestible by the valuations of those who are close to him, and through this he can be taken advantage of. Having found himself in some new place, if there is such a person there, he will try to listen to his/her evaluations and then adopt them as his own. The best place for him is where he has a circle of close and trusted friends. He likes situations where he knows or can accurately assess how everything should be treated and valuated: "this is white and that is black." If he lacks such clarity, he may feel uncomfortable. It is very painful for him to part with his groups of friends or team where he worked - memories will bring him to bouts of nostalgia. It is very hurtful for him to lose a friend, a comrade, a colleague, whom he has known for a long while. Same applies to his personal life. "
AND implying someone IS EVIL. When that's clearly corrupt information is enough to make a LIE dig in their heels and see you as someone on whom they cannot depend for counsel. Actions can be evil. People aren't. And when a delta person has worries, it's good to explain their concerns so that an LIE can implement safeguards to buffer the organization and people from those possibly impending threats, NOT to insinuate we should throw Beta person over the side into the ocean.

What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
And how are you protecting those people? Through acts!

We're very active people. I've seen EIE and LIE shift mountains in a day. That words are easy to say does not mean they lack power. Thoughts and ideas contribute to most of the happenings in the world. And discrediting a person entirely and acting like they are evil does mean they can become endangered, and it's reasonable to protect someone from shit ideas like that.

crusades, stonings, scarlet letter, angry mobs, etc

and also undercutting them in meetings just from bitterness....turning a cold shoulder toward them to passive aggressively indicate what you aren't saying....trying to make them feel unwelcome and dangerous.....intervening to keep them from getting responsibilities they are capable of at work or a promotion they earned...there are a lot of ways ideas that someone IS BAD can mean a person is going to trouble them.

It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?

But the gamma described in the work scenario was simply distancing themselves from a delta who denigrated the Beta. That's not AGGRESSION.

And I know gammas are portrayed as cut-throat when we are comfortable with OFTEN non-harmful firmness on reasonable policies where other types are uncomfortable being firm about them. That we are seen as aggressive and cut-throat is a bad portrayal. Sure, any person of any type can be cruel and selfish. Doesn't mean gammas are especiallly so. The literature points to gamma being a quadra focused on giving for the greater good. People respond to and remember the negative more strongly, so of course, we are portrayed incorrectly as the ever cold 'bad guys.' But that's just not realistic.

[lkdhf qkb]

Thanks for taking your time to clear things up. To make things clear on my side, I never said I didn't like LIEs or that they are a "bad type"(that would be a shocking generalisation). I appreciate a lot of LIEs and gammas in general.

@SojournInLimbo My problem was that the company was an "overly gamma environment"(like I'd estimate the share of alpha/beta/gamma/delta at respectively 5/25/50/20 percent from the people I typed) and there were no alphas to keep them 'in check'. The LIEs started acting like:



And not like :




So what they were doing: creating useless rivalries between departments just for the fun of it, favouring their friends when jobs had to be given, acting like positions were 'up for grabs' when everything was predetermined(I applied for jobs that didn't exist or were already given basically), pretending there is no hierarchy and that everyone is welcome to contribute to decisions but keeping people in the dark about any development unless you were in the 'inner circle'("You don't need to know"="I won't show my cards to you") even if it explicitely concerned your interests, breaking safety regulations, etc.... the word teamwork would have sounded like a joke to them probably. I mean, it went so far that even betas would distanciate.

In general, I have trouble with "quadral groups"(even my own), nothing gets done and people just act stupid. Last year, I had flatmates that were all alpha, and after two months I couldn't stand the constant emotional output as if my house was some kind of south american soap opera. In beta groups it's more like an episode of narcos.

I just got back from listening to my IEI friend talk about her various griefs for hours. I loved it. I really enjoy being the friend people know they can share their shit with. I love learning about them and their needs. I love being supportive for them. I love applying what they learn in my own life. AND THAT IS VERY GAMMA. It's in the wikisocion articles on gammas and how they prefer to talk about life.

I listened to my EII friend for an hour doing the same thing yesterday afternoon. 'I always feel better when I talk with you.'

I had a maybe 3 hours discussion on life and his relationships with my ESTJ friend in a messaging app LAST NIGHT.

I guess if you had a few gammas at your job that behaved the way yours did, you might think we're all business and abusive. We're not.

I don't relate to that at all ...that 'not listening' at all.

People have sought me ought for the last two decades to confide in me and get relief in sharing what they need to.

And at my job this summer, I am the one people come to when they don't go to HR, and I listen and commiserate, and then I talk with them about getting their needs met. And then I go do it.

And when I was teaching tech, the kids came to me when an aide was being coercive and denigrating to them because I paused more than the other teachers were and made special efforts to encourage them to speak up and get me if they couldn't handle something, including when I disagreed with their not correcting a teacher. I explained that it helps me when they share what they see and that the first person who could find a mistake I made and shared it with me during class would get to take the class toy home. And I disagreed that they needed to call me Ms. Nanashi's Lastname. The other teacher down the hall was SERIOUSLY upset by that. "They need to know who's the teacher."
'I'm almost six feet tall. They know who the teacher is.' I want them to understand how the ability really functions and to get that I have a first name, nanashi, and that I don't think I'm above them or their dictator.
I am more concerned with them developing self-advocacy skills, getting that I am human and thus fallible though good-intentioned and willing to grow and correct my behavior, knowing I'm their ally (not just their authoritarian leader), and they are co-creating the world we're in.

LIE are not Mr. Burns. We're shit at somethings, but we're VERY invested in peoples' lives and can be incredibly gregarious, loyal, supportive, and self-sacrificing. We don't only have characteristics of cruel, abusive leaders.

I have seen myself motivate and support people into excellence in their work or learning. AND A TON OF IT WAS VIA LISTENING TO THEM.

Well, that's great! I guess my remark was more meant as listening to their "ennemies" not their allies.

AND implying someone IS EVIL. When that's clearly corrupt information is enough to make a LIE dig in their heels and see you as someone on whom they cannot depend for counsel. Actions can be evil. People aren't. And when a delta person has worries, it's good to explain their concerns so that an LIE can implement safeguards to buffer the organization and people from those possibly impending threats, NOT to insinuate we should throw Beta person over the side into the ocean.

Maybe the problem is then that you stop to listen when someone says someone else is evil. I know we're talking hypothetically, but would you even care to ask why they think what they think? Most people actually can be convinced to change their minds.

We're very active people. I've seen EIE and LIE shift mountains in a day. That words are easy to say does not mean they lack power. Thoughts and ideas contribute to most of the happenings in the world. And discrediting a person entirely and acting like they are evil does mean they can become endangered, and it's reasonable to protect someone from shit ideas like that.

crusades, stonings, scarlet letter, angry mobs, etc

and also undercutting them in meetings just from bitterness....turning a cold shoulder toward them to passive aggressively indicate what you aren't saying....trying to make them feel unwelcome and dangerous.....intervening to keep them from getting responsibilities they are capable of at work or a promotion they earned...there are a lot of ways ideas that someone IS BAD can mean a person is going to trouble them.

I can understand what you mean, but I think projecting crusades and stonings on people's hate is a slippery slope(unless you live in Afghanistan). I mean, you can only overreact if you think that the next step is going to be a mobbing. That completely messes up your 'threat radar' and makes you react to something that only exists in your head. I.e. delusional.

But the gamma described in the work scenario was simply distancing themselves from a delta who denigrated the Beta. That's not AGGRESSION.

Good point. It still sounds bad because you imply that denigrating is an aggression but then you denigrate or evict the denigrator. In what way are you contributing something constructive? That's just perpetuating a vicious circle of violence.

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
&
“An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.” Gandhi

I'm going to repeat myself: Do you ever wonder where the cliché of ruthless gammas comes from?

And I know gammas are portrayed as cut-throat when we are comfortable with OFTEN non-harmful firmness on reasonable policies where other types are uncomfortable being firm about them. That we are seen as aggressive and cut-throat is a bad portrayal. Sure, any person of any type can be cruel and selfish. Doesn't mean gammas are especiallly so. The literature points to gamma being a quadra focused on giving for the greater good. People respond to and remember the negative more strongly, so of course, we are portrayed incorrectly as the ever cold 'bad guys.' But that's just not realistic.

If that's true, I think gammas should leave determining what's the greater good to beta and delta NFs. SFs don't really grasp what's "greater or not" and NTs have trouble with determining "good and bad".