Community created by IEIs-INFps - values and expected behavior

[Dioklecian]

In a community created by INFPs what values would prevail?

What would be the expected behaviour of peoples"?

[Typeless Wonder]

Vague captured my beliefs perfectly. I've never told anyone because I know I'd instantly be branded a lunatic and dismissed, but deep down I've always believed that civilization is overrated. Civ is nothing but a big slave camp where we get some cool technology and toys in trade for selling ourselves to the man. Civilization might be worth something if we could just get past the "selling ourselves to the man" part and put in jail anyone who demands we work more than four hours a day. OK, jail is a bit harsh, we'll just give them more weed to smoke until they come to their senses. I definately value leisure over work since that is where I'm free to pursue the things which are truly important to me.

[.thursday]

i would kill myself

Emo much? Not to mention that your username is .thursday.

hah. thursday is from this book not the band.

[FDG]

put in jail anyone who demands we work more than four hours a day. .

Nobody demands you to do it. You can choose to starve and die

[Expat]

put in jail anyone who demands we work more than four hours a day. .

Nobody demands you to do it. You can choose to starve and die

Which would be the same choice most people had before civilization.

The alternative to civilization is not lazing about doing nothing -- it's struggling to survive.

I definately value leisure over work since that is where I'm free to pursue the things which are truly important to me.

And unless you are born rich, how are you going to get food, clothing, shelter, and even buy stuff necessary for pursuing those "truly important things"?

Do you think that without civilization, people just did nothing? In some very specific cases, as in Tahiti, perhaps people could survive with a minimum of work. But for the vast majority of mankind, life without civilization was a constant struggle for the basic things you need to survive.

[anndelise]

put in jail anyone who demands we work more than four hours a day. .

Nobody demands you to do it. You can choose to starve and die

Which would be the same choice most people had before civilization.

The alternative to civilization is not lazing about doing nothing -- it's struggling to survive.

I definately value leisure over work since that is where I'm free to pursue the things which are truly important to me.

And unless you are born rich, how are you going to get food, clothing, shelter, and even buy stuff necessary for pursuing those "truly important things"?

Do you think that without civilization, people just did nothing? In some very specific cases, as in Tahiti, perhaps people could survive with a minimum of work. But for the vast majority of mankind, life without civilization was a constant struggle for the basic things you need to survive.

Except that some people are still struggling to survive...within "civilization".

[Expat]

Except that some people are still struggling to survive...within "civilization".

Sure, but that is hardly a consequence of civilization.

[anndelise]

Except that some people are still struggling to survive...within "civilization".

Sure, but that is hardly a consequence of civilization.

I've a feeling that INFps would argue that. Particularly male INFps.

One of the problems with civilization is the artificial rules enforced. INFps can work with "rules" that naturally arise out of specific interactions. Where they seem to always fall short on are working with the artificial rules, because in most cases, the rules make no sense. And yet, if the INFps don't play the game, they risk becoming cast outs. At least until an emergency arises and the INFp's abilities are needed.

Probably the most common complaint from INFps is their difficulties in finding a place for themselves within civilization. They often comment that they feel as if they must either give up their sense of self, or feel an outcast.

I have to admit, every INFp I've met in person or on the internet has voiced the above. If it's such a common phenomena for them, wouldn't it make sense that there IS something about civilization that is ..."off"?

[Expat]

Anndelise, I totally see where you're coming from. But the point is that the real alternatives to civilization are not INFp paradises. Of course, to point this out is precisely what INFps don't want you to do.

[anndelise]

Anndelise, I totally see where you're coming from. But the point is that the real alternatives to civilization are not INFp paradises. Of course, to point this out is precisely what INFps don't want you to do.

Hehe...that's ok...I shiver at the thought of being in a total INFp "civilization".

[dreamer]

I wouldn't want to be in an INFP civilization either. It would be totally boring and annoying not to mention. Besides, if all INFPs get together and stop feeling like outcasts, we wouldn't have INFPs, we would have XXXXs.

A lot of introverts in general feels outcasted so it's not just INFPs. Besides, we need the Es to keep us balanced and our lives exciting.

My biggest complain is insincerity. People offer so much crap it disgusts me. If everyone can be sincere and lay it all out in front of me so I can understand what they're doing and what their hidden motives are, I wouldn't be all stressed out.

[Expat]

My biggest complain is insincerity. People offer so much crap it disgusts me. If everyone can be sincere and lay it all out in front of me so I can understand what they're doing and what their hidden motives are, I wouldn't be all stressed out.

dreamer, I really think you're a socionics INFj rather than INFp.

[anndelise]

My biggest complain is insincerity. People offer so much crap it disgusts me. If everyone can be sincere and lay it all out in front of me so I can understand what they're doing and what their hidden motives are, I wouldn't be all stressed out.

dreamer, I really think you're a socionics INFj rather than INFp.

what dreamer said above is a common infp desire.

[Scrummy]

One thing that upsets me about what INFps admit about themselves is this apparent lack of initiative and ambition. More and more, the thought of being merely content in neurovegitation, ease, and "productivity becoming a quaint word of the past" fill me with apprehension, boredom, and disgust. (No offense to vague, of course.)

I will be the first to admit that I'm lazy and quite comfortable within my own comfort zone. However, I'm much too important with too much to get done, than to sit around and pursue nothing more than creature comforts. The most thrilling feeling I've ever experienced is breaking out of my percieved comfort zones, getting my ass into gear, and having it actually work out. Inaction scares me. The thought of becoming worthless colateral in the life of some ESTp who does have the balls to get out there and do something sends me into depression.

If the world was run by such INFps, we'd last about a decade at most...

[Expat]

what dreamer said above is a common infp desire.

How so? It sounds more like than .

[anndelise]

what dreamer said above is a common infp desire.

How so? It sounds more like than .

My biggest complain is insincerity. People offer so much crap it disgusts me. If everyone can be sincere and lay it all out in front of me so I can understand what they're doing and what their hidden motives are, I wouldn't be all stressed out.

Infps in dealing with people, focus on the person's intentions. They want to know what your intentions are, or the intentions of the group, or even the intention of the theory.

Basically, it's like...an INFp can't take action unless they know what the intent of the action is supposed to be.

That seems to be how they learn best. You can tell them...do 1, then 2, then 3....and they'll look at you with glazed uncomprehending eyes. If instead, you tell them that you need them to get to the final product (say step 4), their eyes will light up and they become focused on getting the final product...by whichever means. For example, my brother and i were taking ice skating lessons. The coach would tell him what to do, what steps to take...and he'd be totally agitated because he wanted to know why he was taking those steps, why these steps and not those, etc. It falls under the Hidden Agenda To Understand.

Now, throw in people who hem and haw as to their intent. Who say one thing hoping for another to happen. In essence, insincerity. So, people give them one intent, the INFp figures out which actions to take, and then the person says no, they really meant this other intent, so the INFp adjusts to match that intent, and then it turns out that it's yet a different intent. Best way to drive an infp bonkers!!!

Putting it into functions....
With the Ni accepting, they are seeing trends. With the Fe producing, they seek to create harmony. Most commonly, harmony between their own actions and the actions of others. They know their own intent (trends), but how can they create this harmony if they do not know the intent (trends) of the others?

[CuriousSoul]

A lot of introverts in general feels outcasted so it's not just INFPs. Besides, we need the Es to keep us balanced and our lives exciting.
My biggest complain is insincerity. People offer so much crap it disgusts me. If everyone can be sincere and lay it all out in front of me so I can understand what they're doing and what their hidden motives are, I wouldn't be all stressed out.

Everyone says they wants sincerity, is it really type related at all?
Personally, I think sincerity is largely an illusion anyway since half the time most people are not really aware of what they doing in the first place, and the motives they might think they have are just proxies for more fundamental motives beyond the reach of conscious analysis.

[anndelise]

One thing that upsets me about what INFps admit about themselves is this apparent lack of initiative and ambition. More and more, the thought of being merely content in neurovegitation, ease, and "productivity becoming a quaint word of the past" fill me with apprehension, boredom, and disgust. (No offense to vague, of course.)

I will be the first to admit that I'm lazy and quite comfortable within my own comfort zone. However, I'm much too important with too much to get done, than to sit around and pursue nothing more than creature comforts. The most thrilling feeling I've ever experienced is breaking out of my percieved comfort zones, getting my ass into gear, and having it actually work out. Inaction scares me. The thought of becoming worthless colateral in the life of some ESTp who does have the balls to get out there and do something sends me into depression.

If the world was run by such INFps, we'd last about a decade at most...

I've always thought of INFps as being almost...horrified..at the thought of stagnation. There is always more to do, more to study, more understandings to come to. And while they won't kill themselves working for money, they do hope to get money for what they do do.

[CuriousSoul]

One thing that upsets me about what INFps admit about themselves is this apparent lack of initiative and ambition. More and more, the thought of being merely content in neurovegitation, ease, and "productivity becoming a quaint word of the past" fill me with apprehension, boredom, and disgust. (No offense to vague, of course.)

I am afraid INFjs are not really better in this respect.
Does anyone really know how these types are different, unrelated I know...

[Scrummy]

My post was mostly tongue in cheek. Although, the traditional connotations associated with productivity do not really interest me. My idea of being productive is less concrete, although admittedly it is the type of productiveness that one would starve to death on.

Yar, traditional notions of productivity are usually really, really, really boring and mostly Sj-based.

I've always thought of INFps as being almost...horrified..at the thought of stagnation. There is always more to do, more to study, more understandings to come to. And while they won't kill themselves working for money, they do hope to get money for what they do do.

This is true. We do get a reputation for being slackers and whores to ESTps, which I guess is true to some degree but only because ESTps are walking bags of hormones and we tend to work more sporadically and INFp-productivity and ambition is usually geared to less quantifiable efforts.

[dreamer]

INFPs are only slackers when they are unmotivated but when you have a motivated INFP who wants to reach a goal, they'll reach it and work as hard as any ESTP. Maybe not in the same way but take a different route that they themselves constructed because it makes sense to them to follow.

Wait. Here I am thinking all ESTP are whores. Huh?

I read the description for the socionics INFJ and not all of it fits me...I think. I don't know the difference between socionics INFJ or the other whatever. Anyone want to clear that up with me?

basic pleasure -> acceptance
basic fear -> rejection

That is true. I have a phobia of rejection but that could just be low self esteem.

Basic belief: I may get hurt. Thinking strategy Avoidance

That is true too...

Not sure if that's stronger than Basic Pleasure Basic Fear
attention being ignored. And Basic belief: I need to impress. Thinking strategy Dramatics.

But for MA, I would still be INFP?


INFjs can be very touchy and this may strain the easy atmosphere of a conversation. Sometimes they adopt a monotone speech pattern that can snuff out all playfulness in others. -> not accurate

They care not with words but with real actions. -> Hmmm

They do everything carefully, paying great attention to the quality of their labour. INFjs demand cleanliness and order. At home they tend to keep everything tidy, carefully storing their belonging, especially females INFjs. They like a calm and measured style of life and therefore try to prepare and anticipate everything beforehand, often making them quite reliable. -> Wrong

Instead they punish offenders by completely ignoring them until they realise their mistakes and apologise. -> True

Besides:

Judging types

do not like to leave unanswered questions
plan work ahead and tend to finish it
do not like to change their decisions
have relatively stable workability
easily follow rules and discipline -> no no no no

[Expat]

@Anndelise: very interesting, it makes sense. Of course the fact that INFps expect sincerety from others doesn't mean that they will be sincere themselves in their quest for "creating harmony". That was what I was thinking of.

I read the description for the socionics INFJ and not all of it fits me...I think. I don't know the difference between socionics INFJ or the other whatever. Anyone want to clear that up with me?

basic pleasure -> acceptance
basic fear -> rejection

That is true. I have a phobia of rejection but that could just be low self esteem.

Basic belief: I may get hurt. Thinking strategy Avoidance

That is true too...

Not sure if that's stronger than Basic Pleasure Basic Fear
attention being ignored. And Basic belief: I need to impress. Thinking strategy Dramatics.

But for MA, I would still be INFP?


INFjs can be very touchy and this may strain the easy atmosphere of a conversation. Sometimes they adopt a monotone speech pattern that can snuff out all playfulness in others. -> not accurate

They care not with words but with real actions. -> Hmmm

They do everything carefully, paying great attention to the quality of their labour. INFjs demand cleanliness and order. At home they tend to keep everything tidy, carefully storing their belonging, especially females INFjs. They like a calm and measured style of life and therefore try to prepare and anticipate everything beforehand, often making them quite reliable. -> Wrong

Instead they punish offenders by completely ignoring them until they realise their mistakes and apologise. -> True

Besides:

Judging types

do not like to leave unanswered questions
plan work ahead and tend to finish it
do not like to change their decisions
have relatively stable workability
easily follow rules and discipline -> no no no no

No, that wasn't the best place to look at. First, that "basic fear/basic pleasure" stuff is from Oldham, not socionics, and not all Oldham types are well matched with the socionics types.

Second, those items for "judging types" do not relate well to all judging types.

You could take a look here:

http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/infp.htm
http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/infj.htm

There are better profiles than these but if you already identify strongly with one and not the other, it would already be helpful.

[implied]

i agree with you, expat, that she seems more INFj than INFp.

i think an ESTp might drive her mad!

[Expat]

I am afraid INFjs are not really better in this respect.
Does anyone really know how these types are different, unrelated I know...

Well I think one could start by looking at quadra values.

- : INFjs are more focused on longer-term, deeper feelings and consistent ethical principles; INFps are more focused on immediate moods and external expression of emotions, and their ethical principles are far more changeable according to their own criteria.

INFps have as quadra value; they are not as resolute as they'd wish, so they crave for a partner that will give them the necessary "push". INFjs, on the contrary, dislike being pushed by someone's . INFjs also dislike exercising power and authority over others, INFps don't.

INFps have a consistent vision, a belief, or an objective, realistic or not; INFjs are more aware of several alternatives.

Let me just say that INFjs give great importance to handling financial affairs realistically and keeping their feet on the ground, they welcome someone to help them with such affairs. INFps wish they did not have to concern themselves with such matters at all.

[dreamer]

i think an ESTp might drive her mad!

*bites nails*

BUT BUT

[CuriousSoul]

[
Well I think one could start by looking at quadra values.

Very good.
Makes sense.

[dreamer]

Can I be both????

[Scrummy]

Can I be both????

You're not the only one who's confused between INFp/INFj.

[dreamer]

And here I am thinking I'm definitely INFP.
Oh well...I'm going to label myself INFX then...I think...maybe, when I have more time, I'll read more...

I am not a neat freak but I don't like dirty messy either. Right now, I'm like in between but I think when I get my own place, I'm going to care about it more.

I like to think of myself as a P but I think I have a bit of J in me. When I see my friend's messy room, I'm just like UGHHH. My friend is structured but her room is messy...she thinks about the future a lot but she also lives in the present.

This is all confusing and blurry.

I don't want to be completely INFP (I complained about this earlier) but yet I don't want to be completely INFJ (I'm not weird! ) so...I'm gonna be both. Logical solution? Emotional solution? Ugh. Who knows.

I'm not sure how I feel about ESTPs either.

[Expat]

I am not a neat freak but I don't like dirty messy either. Right now, I'm like in between but I think when I get my own place, I'm going to care about it more.

I like to think of myself as a P but I think I have a bit of J in me. When I see my friend's messy room, I'm just like UGHHH. My friend is structured but her room is messy...she thinks about the future a lot but she also lives in the present.
.

You're still thinking too much in MBTI terms. In socionics, this J/P dichotomy will not help, not in the terms you are describing.

Socionics INFj and INFp are very different creatures, it's not just a question of being structured and neat, or not. To make it very simple, an INFp finds ESTps delightful to have around; an INFj finds them obnoxious.

[dreamer]

Okay, I find them obnoxious but I like having them around which means that half of me finds it annoying and...the other...IDK but I was talking to a friend of mine who I'm not really close to and she said she's between the two too. Or well, she said between four and five so I'll go check that out.

[Scrummy]

Most INFps seem to be rather repelled by strong .

So... you find me repulsive?

That really is the one thing that has kept me from throwing away the INFj possibility. I do think I have stronger Fi than the average INFp.

That said, I do have much stronger Fe than Fi. I have just done a very good job of concealing it out of self-preservation. You know how hostile people on this forum are towards jacked-up Fe. The bitching, oh fuck, the bitching! Fe is the devil. It's manipulative, it's ingenuine, it's elitist, it's pack-mentality... And I agree with them. ANY function, when the motivation for its use is rooted in insecurity or anger or depression, is a dangerous thing. For this reason, I don't find Fe-gone-bad any more reprehensible than, say, Te-on-a-rampage, even though they both suck. And also, for this reason, I think it's stupid to be repelled by Fi.

I've been pretty good about hiding my Te-PoLR, but it's definitely there. Se-PoLR? No. That's definitely my dual-seeking function. I use it best when I'm horny.

It seems all of my functions are somewhat more developed relative to other INFps (and I'm not boasting - any idiot will be able to fake their way to reasonable development, functionally, given the right stimuli), but even if this is the case, their potency relative to each other is pretty much clean-cut INFp. My intertype relations are pretty much the run of the order - ESTps don't bother me in the way they bother other people, ESTjs make me feel small and frivolous. Even on this forum, ask the ESTps, ask the ENTjs, heck, ask the Delta NFs. They don't want me in their quadra, lol.

[dreamer]

I'm not leaving the Beta. *ties self against Beta tree*

You know...perhaps it's just a human flaw. Not everyone can be emotional thinkers ALL the time, sometimes, logic just sweeps in.

Or not.

ESTPs are a soft spot of mine (well, only one because he was there when I was terribly bored of life and he sparked it up some) and I like them better than most people BUT I can't completely trust them no matter what. There is just this worrying feeling that they're completely out of control.

I don't know any ESTJs so...but...J sounds appealing in a mate...but that could just be like preference...haha, I said mate...

[sigma]

but...J sounds appealing in a mate...but that could just be like preference...haha, I said mate...

I also used to like the idea of a J, at least some of the things described by dichotomies BUT having experienced a bad relation with a J... I'm cured... sure, I like having a neat room but... having to be told every time to clean this and that sucks soo much that I would rather live in a perpetual mess that support another bad J thing...

[Scrummy]

That's well illustrated in your posts. You can write something that is both entertaining and logical-slash-relevant. The two latter things often escape me. I often have a vague idea of a concept but can't quite cognitize it into words. Your posts color in the background. Half the things I understand well about socionics I derived from your posts, they're written in a way that resonates easily for me. Really!-- that's not just an embarassing gushy display of Fe.

*sniff* That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard... since yesterday. Jeesh... now I feel kinda bad about telling that gypsy lady to put a curse on your progeny. *offers to share his bowl of strawberries with vague as a sign of friendship* I do get taken abaxk by strong Fi, also... in fact, the Fe-bitching here is representative of that in a way and that definitely had me chewing at my collar.

I don't think my posts are humorous at all... in fact, I can rarely ever get people to laugh with "normal" jokes. I have to do it by making an idiot of myself. I have this character that I revert into whenever there's charming to be done - it's sort of like an overgrown, oversexed and drug-addled five-year old Venezuelan Buddhist monk. I can't be the only one who does this, right?

Stay in Betaaaaa We want you here!

Alrighty! *chains himself to Beta*

I shall not, I shall not be moved
I shall not, I shall not be moved
Just like a tree that's standing by the water
I shall not be moved

[dreamer]

I often want things that I can't have or that other people have even if I know that I don't really want it and wouldn't know what to do if I have it but it drives me crazy if I don't have it to reject it. By crazy I mean obsessive crazy. Is that type related?

[Scrummy]

Actually, I really enjoyed your copywritten sig you had a while ago. I felt I woulda fit in perfectly to what that acronym stood for!

Ah, that, yeah... I think it was S.M.A.R.T. (Sexy, Mature, And Responsible Types for a New America) or something... I was proud of myself when i came up with that.