ProChoice
ProLife
indifferent
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Ah ha ha... that reminds me, the prison system is ridiculous. I think it would be better to make the penalty something simple and dumb, like a fine and a "cease and desist" order (translation: shut down the hospital)... or tax hikes. No need to make it a burden on the government.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Gah. This isn't about respect for life IMO.
These are the reasons I'm pro-choice (listed from highest importance to least importance):
1. Making it illegal is not going to stop it from happening imo. I imagine it will lead to having it continue in the black market sense, illegally and unregulated. As such, not only will you lose the embryo, but you might lose the mother as well. Narcotics are illegal... but... people still use them... Since when has making something illegal that people want to do anyway stopped anyone? In other words, I think making it illegal will make the problem worse not better, and so for being all "pro-life" you won't really save many (if any) lives. In fact I think there are better ways to reduce the abortion rate (why not try to figure out what will actually decrease the rate and then start implementing... why not try something that has a higher chance of success?).
2. There are certain instances where it may need to happen anyway. Maybe if carried to term, the baby will endanger the life of the mother. Maybe the baby is horribly disfigured. Maybe the baby was born with some terrible disease and it's not going to make it long anyway when born... etc. There's also the issue of rape... which is a-whole-nother mess. Pregnancy is a time-sensitive matter and courts can take a really long time to make decisions... the two are incompatible. Furthermore, this doesn't belong in the hands of the courts because they'll only fuck it up.
3. Let's say it is illegal. What happens to women who have an abortion and then are arrested for it? Do they go to prison? For having an abortion? What sort of law enforcement would we be talking about? Don't we have enough people in prison already? Do we really need to add women who had abortions to the prison population? Doesn't that seem outrageously backwards?
4. The government with its strong patriarchal and Judeo-Christian influence has no right to impose its will on the female body in this way. Absolutely none. Perhaps they should make laws about who I can and can't have sex with while we're at it. I don't like the idea of abortion. And I can't predict what I'd do in every scenario... even if I think I'd never have an abortion... but I do not want the government telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. It isn't their place and it isn't their business. And I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interest. And I don't want them making my choices for me.
I think this *is* a moral matter, but it is *not* and should not be a legal one. And that's why being pro-choice and anti-abortion are not mutually exclusive (though I wouldn't necessarily say I'm 100% anti-abortion)... Pro-choice and Pro-life are *legal* stances, not moral ones. It's not a question of whether you value life or not... it's about whether you want abortion illegal or not... I think that making abortion illegal won't save lives anyway and will make things worse... so why would I then want it illegal?
i don't take a side but i think pro-life organizations should put every single cent they have towards informing people of contraceptives.
asd
It's so simple.
If you are pregnant you may have your baby.
You have the right to.
If you are not pregnant, then fuck off.
You don't have the right to decide how a woman uses her body.
In fact, it doesn't even directly affect you at all!
If a woman chooses not to have a baby, it does not directly affect you.
People are not born all the time.
Ladies: If you're not okay with that, then go get pregnant.
Gentlemen: Go knock up the nearest chick you can find. Because her egg deserves life too!
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
I identify more with pro choice, but it isn't the path I would choose for myself. I would rather sacrifice my own lifestyle than abort a child. But then again, I would never want to impose a belief that is so influential on a person's life based on my own opinion, nor would I want to oppress people. But there should be a cutoff point, IMO, somewhere near the end of the first trimester. So.....pro choice.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
lol@the ad for this page
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
1. YES! AGREED! (just like with how they outlawed alcohol in the '20s)
2. hmmmm. scary.
3. agreed.
4. Yes! Morality and law do not need to be the same thing.
5. True.
HOLY COW.
Ok I'm ProChoice. (still will never abort tho)
You said that wonderfully Loki.
It's a good thing people like you are around.
You helped give me more clarity...in my head this whole thing just gets jumbled up and confusing so easliy and the fact that this an emotional topic doesn't help. Thank you. =)
cancer this is a confusing topic ok?
anyway. there's a cutoff point somewhere right? you have reasons for saying the cutoff point is birth and I have reasons for saying conception. If you wann go through ur reasons for why it's at birth I'll listen.
difference between egg and embryo. if it was an embryo and not an egg inside me i'd let it live.
I'M NOT CHANGING THE STANDARDS FOR MYSELF CANCER!
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!
I've never ever claimed that an egg was a life. Living tissue: yes. An individual human being: No.
I have claimed that I belive that an embryo is a life.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
This is a mockery mime, you know that. They have you begging for forgiveness.
A girls' egg is not a human? We're referring to human lives.Haha, you Pro Life people.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."
because it's been fertilized. and wtf hkkmr, humans!=cows. That made no sense.So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Are you simply agreeing with everyone now? I'm being doubtful. The atmosphere of this topic was seeming a bit tense... and it's one of those unresolvable topics (and so posting on it is unwise)... and I know that my post made the atmosphere worse, which was why I was hesitant to post it... and now I'm not sure about having posted it... because I wasn't really aiming to have people magically agree... half of it was wanting to articulate my thoughts... and I posted that at an inopportune time... i.e. at the time where people were likely to begin de-tensifying (I made up a word ) the atmosphere. But anyway, you're welcome.Originally Posted by theMime
I thought people often regret having them after... seems very masochistic of her.Originally Posted by Starfall
Then what is a human life?
so if you're saying the difference between life and egg is time and sperm...
then how valuable is human life?
HAHA!
The only thing that makes me human is time and sperm.
That's amazing.
I am alive because of time and sperm.
Time and fucking sperm.
Time and sperm are the reason I am "alive" and not an egg.
Jesus Christ.
Time and sperm.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
What I am seeing here is that you can't argue with someone if you don't accept their base argument.
Pro-choice= Point of embryo becoming human=unknown, therefore it can be killed.
Pro-Life= You need to have morality.
We both disagree on these base arguments, so this thread will stay unresolved.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
yes time and sperm. You got fertilized, and you are now alive. You are human, which deserves much respect. It's why crimes are higher for a murder of a human than a dog. We are sentient.
I don't know who introduced the idea of the weight of human life here. It was never was in question.
and hkkmr, we have free will, not the cows. Therefore human>cow 24/7.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Haha.
I was being honest.
For most of my teenage life I was adamantly ProLife.
Then I began looking at it from different angles. Then I began to be really confused but remained ProLife. I wanted more perspective. So I've been throwing out all my postions/opinions/ideas whatver and seeing what other people had to say to get perspective. I've been teetering on the fence.
I'm the type of person that as soon as I get clarity I can decide quickly. I've never been one to upset over the fact that I was wrong. I was wrong on some of my arguments, people pointed it out and I accepted it (except one argument wich I think Cancer is trying to sway me on but it's a matter of opinion I think)
The arguing over morality was just plain pointless (well ok it was a bit entertaining) I really could have done without it tho. This whole ProLife/Choice thing isn't about morality...it's about our laws because opinions on morality and law should be separate.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
You can choose to eat, kill someone. Animals lack that entirely. That is called free will bro. I don't know what planet you're from.
Morality is all it's about. It has nothing to do with laws, it has to do with personal choice to accept responsibility for your child. If you lack that, you aren't a human, no matter how much sperm you have .This whole ProLife/Choice thing isn't about morality...it's about our laws because opinions on morality and law should be separate.
What is worth for you? I'd like to know. But no matter what you say, it still comes down to human life and whether you have respect for it. Life is no game, which leads into the cult of irresponsibility once more.But seriously, Kam.
You are alive because of sperm.
That is the only reason your worth anything.
According to you, that is.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
What is life worth...
Hmm...
My life was worthless to Pro Life when I was an egg.
But now it's valuable because of sperm.
Haha. I guess the secret to life is sperm.
Pssst: The Secret of Life is Sperm!
I am worth sperm, according to you.
I have lots of respect for human life.
That's why I'm Pro Choice.
I respect their life, freedom, and rights as human beings.
Irresponsibility is releasing a child that you can't even care for into the world.
The "responsible" thing to do is to have the abortion.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
The main distinguishing factor between us and our primate ancestors is mostly genetic selection for a larger brain, upight posture, and larger penises (a gorilla penis is about the size of your pinky) in males and a vagina facing the anterior in females which allows us to have sex facing each other (most other mammals have sex by mounting from the back). Does this make us inherently "better" than other animals? I don't believe so, but then I don't believe in absolute morality.
It does however give us several evolutionary advantages, the most conspicuous being the ability to create an extremely nuanced communication system (language) which allows us to think deep thoughts (without words, we wouldn't be able to comprehend but the most basic causal logic relationships).
I think we have a bias towards those animals that are most like us. A lot of us don't feel so bad when animals with smaller brains (a bird, say) dies, but we'll empathize more with the black market chimpanzees that get sold as pets or even for their fur. And we value our own species above others because in most cases, we aren't separated be a huge discrepancy in cognitive ability - even babies can communicate with us in ways we identify with and can easily understand. Most studies indicate that animals are indeed capable of suffering. And anyone who works with abused animals knows how far this extends. It's just that they do not have the evolutionary head start we do, and can't communicate or even logically interpret the extent of that suffering like we do. In one way this probably means they don't suffer the same nuanced psychological angst that we do. In other ways, it means they have no means of defense against any suffering we inflict upon them.
I personally believe abortion is wrong. I consider it barbaric and an abuse of our medical technology. I don't, however, think that criminalizing it is the correct route to solving the underlying social issues that lead to unwanted children (which are varied and highly personal from case to case). Weve criminalized homicide, but it hasn't stopped it from occuring.
One such HUGE social issue that hasn't been addressed is the stigma directed at women who become pregnant out of wedlock. We don't look at the men who fuck and run off with even half the reprehension that these women will get.
Last edited by Animal; 04-05-2008 at 03:53 AM.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Yes. I think that's a big part of it. Totally agree.Originally Posted by Baby
So you were an egg? Not the all-powerful sperm? You weren't anything, because egg+sperm is a human.
I'm sorry you feel that way.I have lots of respect for human life.
That's why I'm Pro Choice.
I respect their life, freedom, and rights as human beings.
Irresponsibility is having sex, getting pregnant and then releasing a child that you couldn't even care for into the world. That is shame. The "responsible" thing to do is to give it up for adoption. Human life isn't a game if I must repeat myself. And you respect human life.Irresponsibility is releasing a child that you can't even care for into the world.
The "responsible" thing to do is to have the abortion.
I personally look down on both equally. I'm not sexist.One such HUGE social issue that hasn't been addressed is the stigma directed at women who become pregnant out of wedlock. We don't look at the men who fuck and run off with even half the reprehension that these women will get.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I can't see how you can be 'prochoice' and yet say that you would make rulings like these if you were a leader. How is commanding women to 'replenish the population' a democracy at all? I would be furious if there were such a ruling. If you believe that abortion is not wrong, who are you to decide when it should or should not be done? You should either believe that abortion is completely wrong or that it's not wrong and therefore up to the individual IMO. What you're suggesting sounds like a dictatorship to me.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet