Fe PoLR: how does it show in ISTps and INTps?

[mimisor]

What it's like to have a Fe PoLR? I can't really figure it out.

Think of some situations to discuss.

[Rocky]

I'm going to be lazy...

But this reminds me of another misconceptions people have about types. They think that people don't really "feel" thier so called "weak" functions; not true. Actaully, the "weaker" funcitons are actually more sensitive than the stronger ones (in some ways). Take Fe for an IxTp. IxTps don't need exessive attention, they get bothered by people how are overly feely and emotional, and get tired with people in general, because their Fe function is overly-active. In other words, they more easily over-load their feeling funciton, whereas an Fe dominant type can only draw a tiny bit of "feeling" and "emotion" at one time, so they keep searching for more, and more, and more, to satisfy their Fe. Fe as a fourth function is, ironically, more easily satisfied, so they don't need as much of it.

ISTps might have some odd behavior around friends or family. Too much emotional drama can be strenuous to an ISTp. Their unsociability may arise from people not being trustworthy and polite to them, and it increases when others start to question them about their poor social skills. When an ISTp does feel welcome in a group of people, they might even be talkative and friendly. Only the fear of not being accepted will restrain them. When an ISTp feels like he is out of the loop, or that others are verbally hurting him in some way, he might say some insensitive, blunt, things, often without thinking about it. This is because it is a programmed defense mechanism they have, and cannot control it. Unexpectedly, the ISTp’s mood will shoot up when they realize that the other people around them weren’t either offended or left the ISTp behind. It may look cruel to people around them, but this is how an ISTp lets people get closer to them. After the initial contact, the ISTp will try to keep you as a friend as long as they can, secretly valuing deep relationships with people.

...

They also enjoy it when emotions are just understood. They feel relieved when people can understand them without invading their personal space. They may also have a hard time letting their feelings out, so even if you declare that you like the ISTp several times they may not return the favor, sometimes leaving their partner feeling less appreciated than they really are. It may look like it is hard to please an ISTp on the outside, but that’s only because they don’t show it when you do please them. Some ISTps may stop caring for love altogether if they were hurt enough in the past. They may even forget about the possibility of caring for someone again, trying to sooth their mind. In these extreme cases, the ISTp may only show affection towards pets, because pets never judge you.

[Ave]

In my experience it comes down not being able to stand much moral or ethical pressure. I dont like when people expect me to do things because theyre right and when they do it always seems like theyre breathing down my neck and I explode on them. Not that I dont beleive in morals at all, I just dont like too much pressure or expectation in that regard.

Im not comfortable with too much emotion, open displays of affection, sentiment etc, unless I really know someone closely. Again if someone does show too much emotion it seems like theyre breathing down my neck and that Im walking on hot coals.

[Creepy-]

But this reminds me of another misconceptions people have about types. They think that people don't really "feel" thier so called "weak" functions; not true. Actaully, the "weaker" funcitons are actually more sensitive than the stronger ones (in some ways). Take Fe for an IxTp. IxTps don't need exessive attention, they get bothered by people how are overly feely and emotional, and get tired with people in general, because their Fe function is overly-active. In other words, they more easily over-load their feeling funciton, whereas an Fe dominant type can only draw a tiny bit of "feeling" and "emotion" at one time, so they keep searching for more, and more, and more, to satisfy their Fe. Fe as a fourth function is, ironically, more easily satisfied, so they don't need as much of it.

I can totally see that. Would it also explain why I have problems with over-stimulation and colour? (3rd/5th)

[science as magic]

hey rocky do you think that an inverse relationship exists with the hidden agenda? I find that I cannot get enough but I don't know how to release it.

[Slacker]

What it's like to have a Fe PoLR? I can't really figure it out.

Think of some situations to discuss.

Here's a situation:

I'm going to these parenting workshops every week for the next six weeks. It's supposed to be for couples - everyone will get together and talk about parenting, do some role-playing, discuss our kids and our emotions about our kids and each other. I signed up but said my husband (ISTp) wouldn't be there. My friend was stunned that my husband wouldn't go to it since it's mainly for couples, but that kind of thing is THE MOST PAINFUL thing in the world for him. He could hardly handle birth classes. Talking about us as a family and his emotions regarding parenting with a group of people he either doesn't know or hardly knows would be just plain unfair to even expect of him.

I must assume that it is painful for him because of his PoLR.

[XoX]

Here's a situation:

I'm going to these parenting workshops every week for the next six weeks. It's supposed to be for couples.....

Hmm..I'm not sure if it is the PoLR or what but I would not participate... I'm having hard time to see what use would it serve to participate? If there were some serious problems that I can't solve then I _might_ participate (if I really can't find any other solution). But I don't consider that kind of "workshops" fun and I doubt their usefulness. They sound more like useless mental pain On the other hand I know my wife would be interested in that kind of stuff so this might cause problems if/when we have kids someday...

I don't understand my PoLR very well yet so I just have to believe what Rocky says about it

[Rocky]

hey rocky do you think that an inverse relationship exists with the hidden agenda? I find that I cannot get enough but I don't know how to release it.

Yeah, I think so. You're too sensitive to outside stimulation and pressure, , so you need some kind of subjective feeling, , in it's place. The only difference, I guess, between having dominant or having it as a hidden agenda is that one type knows how to handle it better, whereas as the other type sometimes disregards it, or needs help "finding" it.

[mimisor]

Yeah, as polr is pretty much screwed up, to say the least..
I suppose is about the ability to relax, at least as a hidden agenda.
I feel your pain, Pedro. Chill out, brother, just let things loose

[science as magic]

i disagree that it is screwed up. i think it is valuable precisely because it has the potential to give us so much trouble. i do agree that i need to chillax though

[flower]

everyone will get together and talk about parenting, do some role-playing, discuss our kids and our emotions about our kids and each other.

Wow , there is no way in a hundred years I would do this, especially with strangers.

When I am with good friends, and I dont feel judged, my Fe comes out and I can be very talkative and sometimes quite loud, although not for long periods of time. When in the company of strangers or people I havent known very long, I am different, fairly reserved and I have to make a concious effort to talk to and interact with people like most people do naturally.

[Ave]

hey rocky do you think that an inverse relationship exists with the hidden agenda? I find that I cannot get enough but I don't know how to release it.

Its an introverted function, you dont relase it.

The sixth function can get really intense I've noticed, I guess cuz it gets pent up for so long, but that doesnt make it stable.

[science as magic]

i think you release it or rather it gets released from objects? just like sight can be active or passive or even focused and unfocused? i forget how to release so that i can see it is what i meant i guess

[Mea]

Is this an Fe PoLR hit?

Person A: You need to be more conscious of your body language when talking to other people. Even if you're not interested in what the person has to say, you have to act like you are, it is only polite.

Person B: But I don't care for what that person has to say. I asked a question, and she wasn't answering my question, and was being irrelevant. I don't intend to act interested when I'm not.

Person A: But you have to. You're not very good at dealing with people at all. That's something you have to be better at. It is essential.

[Ezra]

I'd say so definitely.

A Fi PoLR hit, just to clarify, is what my friend said the other day to me.

"Ez, you have to be more considerate of others' feelings. This is an emotional subject and you're taking it lightly."

"So what? I'm making a statement; it has no emotional connotations at all."

"But it does! You're making a light statement concerning an emotional subject, and I don't like it. So just please don't do it again."

[aestrivex]

probably.

^ that, however, does not sound right.

[Ezra]

Why not?

[aestrivex]

Why not?

basically not being aware of the emotional content of what one is doing seems more aligned with Fe polr.


actually, i can sort of see why the above would be an Fi hit, but it's not an Fi hit solely for the reason that you were making a statement with emotional connotations, but rather that you were erroneously perceived as so doing in a way which was not objective.


i guess there's no difference. ignore me.

[Mea]

probably.

So you agree that that is most likely an Fe PoLR hit?

Have you experienced something similar?

[aestrivex]

So you agree that that is most likely an Fe PoLR hit?

Have you experienced something similar?

yes.

[Mea]

yes.

Great. That happened to me today. Me as person B.

It totally irritated me that him & his best friend felt that I need to be better at showing "better body language"
And he told me that I gave her an impression that I was not interested in what she had to teach me, that was the reason why she did not tell me many things. Seriously, I ask her a question, and she started talking about something totally irrelevant to my question, repeating it again and again. Even when I tried to divert it back to what I was trying to find out, she went on about her point thinking she was already answering my question which totally frustrated me.
And all I did was look away occasionally, not like I wasn't listening. And she told him that I was being rude to her and that I don't care enough or some bullshit. URGH!

And they tell me I'm not good at handling people. Like wtf?! Who freaking cares?

[Mea]

Umm. I'm not exactly wanting this to turn into a "what's my type" thing.

Just wanted to check if this was at all related to an Fe PoLR hit, since the 2 other people mentioned in my posts are both Alpha SF, ESFj, ISFp.

[Mediator Kam]

Since when is Fe your PoLR?

[Mea]

Since when is Fe your PoLR?

My thoughts exactly!

[Slacker]

It's related to not valuing Fe, but not necessarily a PoLR hit.

[hellothere]

how close are you to your friend and his best friend?

[Jonathan]

It's related to not valuing Fe, but not necessarily a PoLR hit.

Good point. I think that if the person wasn't even aware of the body language and how it affects how other people view that person, it's more likely to be PoLR. A PoLR-hit response might be...

"But how can I control how other people interpret my body language? I mean, my body moves in the way it has to move to do what I'm trying to accomplish. Why would people read any more into it? If they do, there's nothing I can do about it...it's impossible."

In contrast, saying "I don't intend to act interested when I'm not" implies awareness of body language but signals an intention to value sincerity over acting in a way that's acceptable to others.

[tcaudilllg]

"But how can I control how other people interpret my body language? I mean, my body moves in the way it has to move to do what I'm trying to accomplish. Why would people read any more into it? If they do, there's nothing I can do about it...it's impossible."

"But how can I control how other people interpret my body language? I mean, my body moves in the way it has to move to do what I'm trying to accomplish. Why would people read any more into it? If they do, there's nothing I can do about it...it's impossible."

Actually that would be a slave Fe hit.... A IM Fe PoLR hit would be something like, "you are so not with it" (+Fe) or "you are completely out there." (-Fe) Notice the "autsy" labels against Phaedrus: that's a -Fe PoLR hit, because it suggests there is something wrong with his mind.

[Kristiina]

it sounds like Fe hit. Fe PoLR people would recieve it the most painfully, but all people would be affected. I'd feel bad for days if someone told me that.

[tcaudilllg]

@Kristiina:

Would you think my preceding post accurate or inaccurate? Would you define Fe as something you create in others, or something you acknowledge in others? Particularly, do you think of ENFjs as skillful at recognizing emotions in others; creating them in others; or both?

[FDG]

I couldn't give a shit if somebody were to make me an objection like that, except if I really really really cared a lot about the other person feeling bad (and even in that case, I'd think they should get over it easily for such a small thing)

[Ezra]

Actually, there's something I missed when I first read the first post in the thread by you, Mea.

If Person B has Fe PoLR, then so do I. Even if not PoLR. I at least don't value Fe if Fe is what Person A is propelling.

[Kristiina]

@Kristiina:

Would you think my preceding post accurate or inaccurate? Would you define Fe as something you create in others, or something you acknowledge in others? Particularly, do you think of ENFjs as skillful at recognizing emotions in others; creating them in others; or both?

I don't know enough about +/-Fe. Fe is the ability to sense the details of the emotions in others. Sometimes I notice too much. A person looks annoyed to me, but they are just slightly tired. Noticing the fine-tuned emotions in others helps me say the things that slowly increase their emotion. When I know the other person well, I sometimes know exactly what to say to make them laugh. I can see what mood they're in and how close they are to fun emotions. Sometimes it doesn't work. I don't have the control over their emotions. The answer to your question is this: Evidence shows that I do have some skill at creating emotions in others, but I think it's ONLY because I am skilled at recognizing emotions in others.

A cook can't make good food if he can't taste what's missing. The skill to create something needs the skill to notice the difference.

I am not good at controlling my own body language. Even if I really try to hide it, my body language will show my emotions very accurately. If I feel shy I look shy. But when I manage to make myself FEEL funky, then my body language will become free and I make stupid jokes more freely.

[Slacker]

Part of the problem here might be that it was simply ruden to say that to Mea so anyone might react negatively regardless of type or what information elements one values. No one likes it when someone is a rude bossy bitch.

[tcaudilllg]

@Kristiina:

Thank you for your reply. That I can figure the difference between +/- Fe is this: -Fe sees too little emotion, and wants to raise it to an ideal level; +Fe sees emotion at or above the ideal level, and desires to not only keep it that way but to raise it even higher. That's not the full span of Fe, of course: you can also seek to lower enthusiasm to the set point and no farther, or all the way to nothing. (not sure what you'd call that; maybe it has something to do with which function Fe is blocked with.)

As I see it, we set about trying to influence the world on behalf of our dominant function. A +Fe type like yourself would focus on the business of raising enthusiasm for whatever it was they were interested in. The Fe's success depends on how much a person pays attention to the techniques of dramatic effect, the kinds of things which excite an audience. If the Fe person isn't into the business of fine-tuning their technique, they won't get far; but they may be adept at explaining Fe to others. (the ENFj programmer who spends his time coding all day, and thinking about how to write it, isn't going to be a smashing success on-stage.) I guess what I'm saying is, quality of emotional awareness != skill at replicating it in others.

Do you agree?

in an INTP it is good restraint of Fe action, laughter on occasion with someone unspokenly positively responding to and caring for his emotions. they like to be in objective, non emotionally-influenced state, talking like robots, thinking perhaps too, about what future holds giving current facts. ISTPs would just dislike serious emotions from others, preferring to jam in the moment, chilled and relaxed. imeok

OK, that adds more to it: -Fe PoLR seeks to exclude emotion outright, while +Fe PoLR just seeks to keep it at the ideal medium. Then, what about for the rest of the functions, dee?

[Mea]

i'd say that's Fi. what is socially polite is very much Fi as it is also about social norms of behavior towards eachother.

I personally think that's entirely incorrect.



Anyway, just to clarify, I just simply could not understand why the hell would be people be so concerned with what is "polite to others".

And to answer hellothere, person B is my friend's(close friend of mine) best friend.

I was thinking, do I really have to act like that to actually succeed in this society? Why does all of you (not intending to offend, but the alphas said that, an ENTp and ESFj) think that I need to act a certain way to be able to work??

Also, question. Would an ethical type(ExFp) ever receive comments like that? I agree with the point it could be not valuing Fe... yet...

[Mea]

if you read my next post you would have found one version to your answer.

No. Sorry to inform you A is Alpha. An Alpha SF.

[aestrivex]

Actually, there's something I missed when I first read the first post in the thread by you, Mea.

If Person B has Fe PoLR, then so do I. Even if not PoLR. I at least don't value Fe if Fe is what Person A is propelling.

clearly you've thought this situation out very, very thoroughly. i bow to you for your penetrating insight and remarkable open-mindedness. allow me to kiss your toenails, o great one.

[Gilly]

Actually, there's something I missed when I first read the first post in the thread by you, Mea.

If Person B has Fe PoLR, then so do I. Even if not PoLR. I at least don't value Fe if Fe is what Person A is propelling.

No, you just have weak and unconscious Fe which means you just don't think about it sometimes. Did it really piss you off that you were corrected, or were you maybe glad that it happened so you can maybe recognize that kind of thing better in the future? Even if the situation isn't necessarily analagous?

[cracka]

Is this an Fe PoLR hit?

Person A: You need to be more conscious of your body language when talking to other people. Even if you're not interested in what the person has to say, you have to act like you are, it is only polite.

Person B: But I don't care for what that person has to say. I asked a question, and she wasn't answering my question, and was being irrelevant. I don't intend to act interested when I'm not.

Person A: But you have to. You're not very good at dealing with people at all. That's something you have to be better at. It is essential.

When I read this it felt like the person who told you that had a reason to say this to you, but it wasn't something that would be brought up just from them seeing the conversation. Then I read the quote you wrote below and it made much more sense. They only mentioned it because the other person got mad that you seemed not to care about what they were saying. This person being their best friend was the one who they bitched about this to, which in turn... was brought back your way in that conversation. Remember, as the person's so called "best friend" they'd side with them and let you know about pissing their friend off and how...

Great. That happened to me today. Me as person B.

It totally irritated me that him & his best friend felt that I need to be better at showing "better body language"
And he told me that I gave her an impression that I was not interested in what she had to teach me, that was the reason why she did not tell me many things. Seriously, I ask her a question, and she started talking about something totally irrelevant to my question, repeating it again and again. Even when I tried to divert it back to what I was trying to find out, she went on about her point thinking she was already answering my question which totally frustrated me.
And all I did was look away occasionally, not like I wasn't listening. And she told him that I was being rude to her and that I don't care enough or some bullshit. URGH!

And they tell me I'm not good at handling people. Like wtf?! Who freaking cares?

The best thing you could have done was say just that, "well, she wasn't saying anything I needed to know and speaking about things totally irrelevant that I didn't need to know." It seems as though the person that was teaching you or whatever really must have noticed that you didn't want to listen to what she was saying because she actually did bring it up to their friend to let you know it pissed them off.
I'm more of a forward person in this type of situation though, I can read body language considerably well and if this were something that I noticed when talking to someone I'd bring it up and ask instead of just getting irritated and bitching to my friend about it later. In your case I would have said, is something wrong, or am I missing something. To which I'd hope you would say, "I already know what you're telling me... this is what I need to know....."

In the end I can see where you may have come across as rude to this person but if you had your reason to then I'd voice that to your friend who brought it up to you and let them know why... I'm sure it would make it's way back to their friend.
I also see a little rudeness about the way it was brought up to you though, there should have been a little more tact used in telling you about how you were being rude to them by not seeming interested. As it seems though, they brought it to your attention because they see you and the other person as their friends and would rather not have some crappy drama because the other person thinks you don't like them, so it was something they really felt needed to be brought up.
Or maybe I don't know anything and just felt like typing a bunch of words here. Oh, and this is just my take on it... I don't care about the Fe, Fi, Se, or wtf ever else here...lol