What are the fundamental differences between those 2? From thought patterns, hobbies, behavior, social etiquette etc
ILI-Ni vs LII-Ne
What are the fundamental differences between those 2? From thought patterns, hobbies, behavior, social etiquette etc
Understandable.Originally Posted by persimmonism
I like how i still can't decide whether I'm an ILI-Ni / LII-Ne after reading for hours, days or weeks, even after watching Gulenko, yet i easily know the differences for a certain subtype within minutes reading the description and understanding their use of each IM. Pain.
Hard time making decisions - ILI is good at having hard time making decisions. So many options, what to pick, hmmmmmm
I don't understand and can't relate where ILI is your typical "cold, business focused" type of person. The melancholy and overthinking part sure is accurate, but in terms of socializing with my close friends sure hell i can be loud and witty, jokes a lot aswell.I also seldom been really cold to anyone, though sometimes my criticism is harsh whenever I'm fed up with something
I'll just assume I'm too young for me to use my "Te" in a business way or something if i were an ILI
Also, at the first glance, i don't think i like SEE if it's my dual, ESE looks a bit fun tho, but can be too loud and impulsive? not sure, haven't talked to them properly for me to judge
ILI-Ni does strengthen the Inert functions right, that means Ni-Fe-Fi-Ne is amplified, if that doesn't explain my earlier characteristics, maybe will LII-Ne...
sigh
Have you seen post #30 here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Type-or-Type-)
130 questions to differentiate between LII and ILI.
Have you considered any other types besides these two?
Yea actually. EII, then followed by LIE and IEI in terms of "relatability"
@Adam Strange, I haven't. But that helps, thanks
Someone on these fora said that the difference between ILI and LII is their internal emotional life. ILIs are cold humans while LIIs are warm robots.
(My name is Yon Yonson,
I live in Wisconsin.
I work in a lumber yard there.
The people I meet as
I walk down the street,
They say "Hello!"
I say "Hello!"
They say "What's your name?"
I say: (My name is Yon Yonson...
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Comparing type per type is fine, but subtype per subtype is somewhat unproductive. If you want hot comparative subtype analysis look at DCNH subtype system. More varied, formulated, and accurate. For type versus type analysis I have a transcription of Ben Vaserlan hangout with Viktor Vladimirovich (Doctor Gulenko) and will send you the good stuff.
Most things in the bracket forms a personal commentary and general observations.
Area of comfort:
ILI : independence of choice
LII : freedom from pressure, force (Brake Se)
Systems:
LII: social mission: improving and perfecting systems (Ti-)
ILI: social mission: determining the evolution of systems over time (Ni-)
Logic:
ILI: focuses on strategies and prognosis. Uses logic as a tool (creative function). Uses systems to solve the problem of prognosis. Therefore, not a systems improver but a problem solver (logic as a means to an end providing more scope in problem solving) so indifferent to the notion of which system to involve as the main goal is to solve the problem. Ni(-): what can go wrong and how to fix it? [eg. BBC's Sherlock, Control Ni]
LII: thinks about the profits of his theories but not about solving the problem. Uses fractal logic. Multi-factor, complicated systems delicious for the Analyst.
ILI: makes better ‘use’ of systems using step-by-step approaches. Wants to find one problem-solving decision which will be optimal
1-Memory: (basically static/dynamic)
LII has a fixed, static memory, remembers things he works on a particular moment, or time.
ILI can keep different things at the same time in his memory which is associative. Remembers different types of data not connected to the problem being solved right now. More erudition since they have more details, knowledge about different things.
2-Types of people, getting along with:
LII exists with people who are very emotional but who care about sensing needs (mobilising Si+suggestive Fe, hidden agenda+duality) and sometimes, too much. Response to such people is gratefulness. Doesn’t like forcing or pressuring people. Not good in faring against such aggression.
ILI is the opposite and okay with people who pressure or test him to see how he reacts (Manipulative Se). Dislikes and cannot stand emotional assistance or atmospheres, especially when people want to reciprocated by their own ‘gratefulness’. Can’t really stand emotional praise, gets on their nerves (Brake Fe). Responses to emotional praise : yelling or falling asleep, the first being a defensive measure.
3-Managing abilities:
LII prefers decentralised and smooth managing, prefers to deal with small groups and work on separate projects; without a totalitarian approach. Has bad entrepreneurship characteristics, won’t implement business ideas himself.
ILI manages big groups (better), totalitarian, centralised management style. Marshal’s type of management. Better entrepreneurship capabilities. Much better in formal, predictable, structured situations. More interested in economic theories (Ni-).
4-Speaking Skills:
LII naturally a better speaker (static, perceives time as discrete intervals, Ti uses static structural deconstruction).
ILI can be trained in ethics and evolve the speaking skills (Vaserlan: they learn NLP; Dario Nardi examples).
5-Strategies: (briefly discussed)
ILI better strategist.
LII doesn’t look too far (static).
6-Response to new situations:
LII reacts to new situations with his analysis and tries to elaborate new ways on how to approach it.
ILI figures out how the situation evolves (preferably using past solutions and data; Ni-) and uses logic as a creative tool to classify (not analyse) the situation. Uses already known approaches to solve problems.
7-Attention to details:
LII ruffles big systems and puts details next. First step for LII is an abstraction of a rough big system.
ILI more attentive to details. ILI is the opposite and constructs the whole system from details (Se-Ni).
8-Focus on past:
ILI focuses more on the past, melancholic about the mistakes (Ni-).
LII more optimistic and thinks positively about the future possibilities (Ni+), calmer, stabler temperament.
9-Conversational skills:
ILI better conversationist, can speak on any topic, interesting or not, till he gets tired, not paying attention to politeness, ethical factors not taken into account. Business style of conversation.
LII only when interested (but will be polite; Role Fi).
10-Role + Launcher/Mobilising functions:
LII: Weak emotions but can be trained (Role Fi) but practical/hands-on skills hard to improve (Launcher Si).
ILI: Easily drained by emotions (Launcher Fi) but hands-on skills easy trained (Role Si).
11-Argument styles:
LII: Likes peaceful (but involving everyone) conversations (by emotional warmth) but without too much irony. Doesn’t like joking about others’ mistakes (Role Fi).
ILI: Opposite, likes discussions to be practically efficient/businesslike, likes pointing out flaws/mistakes in others’ points, ironical remarks, discussion as a means to confirmation. Has a tendency to joke about his conversationist’s mistakes, utilising sarcasm.
Last edited by The Iconoclast; 06-22-2022 at 11:28 AM.
Thanks, sir @The Iconoclast
----------------
Area of comfort:
ILI : independence of choice
LII : freedom from pressure, force (Brake Se)
A : definitely, i really despise pressure.
----------------
2. Types of people, getting along with:
LII exists with people who are very emotional but who care about sensing needs (mobilising Si+suggestive Fe, hidden agenda+duality) and sometimes, too much. Response to such people is gratefulness. Doesn’t like forcing or pressuring people. Not good in faring against such aggression.
ILI is the opposite and okay with people who pressure or test him to see how he reacts (Manipulative Se). Dislikes and cannot stand emotional assistance or atmospheres, especially when people want to reciprocated by their own ‘gratefulness’. Can’t really stand emotional praise, gets on their nerves (Brake Fe). Responses to emotional praise : yelling or falling asleep, the first being a defensive measure.
A : if i have a friend with strong Fe, i would probably know my Socionics already
----------------
8. Focus on past:
ILI focuses more on the past, melancholic about the mistakes (Ni-).
LII more optimistic and thinks positively about the future possibilities (Ni+), calmer, stabler temperament.
A : sounds about right.
Okay gotcha, that makes sense. I don't have anything concrete to go on yet.. but I was curious as your writing style struck me as having high intuition (and possibly high ethics). As a result, I was thinking EII-Ne and IEI-Ni might be possible as well.
This is a stereotypical assumption from the MBTI community. But I believe that can be asserted some truth in it. Indeed, LIIs at a distant distance appear to be very incomunicative and cold. Part of this impression vanishes when you get close to them (E6 Manipulative or Suggestive) cause they are very open to emotions and festive atmospheres and so on. They seem to be this warm machine.
With ILIs matters are distinct from their quasi-identical peer. In both distances (close or distant) they will seem cold because they are not much receptive to emotions (E7 Brake or POLR) and try to restrain their emotion expression. However, they are really sensitive and use this mainly as a mean of protection. Makes sense that ILIs are the coldest humans, at least from a external perspective (this perception can also change when you meet D or C ILI subtypes).
@Fransiskus ILI-Cs are sociable and jokesters. (socioniks.net has descriptions for ILIs of the four subtypes).
Last edited by The Iconoclast; 06-22-2022 at 07:32 PM.
Well, that's a possibility. I might have high Ethics usage, as i was considering the possibility of being EII few months back due to me being pretty sensitive to criticism, as one of my friend stated.
Last edited by Fransiskus; 06-23-2022 at 07:16 AM.
Thanks. I also read the LII-C description.
But both of these descriptions are pretty short
I'll just read more about DCNH later
Interesting. I've never had much of a problem once I've come to one but damn did it take me quite awhile relatively speaking. It's actually a double frustrating point in regards to my family. I take awhile to "decide" on a thing. Once I have though? Sometimes they're frustrated with my decision after I've clearly given it my all!
Friggin' LSE mother and likely...
Fucking hell my own father is so dismissive/avoidant I can't even type him right now but I also know for damn sure he's a "rake" in seductive terms and, well, all that tracks so hard I'm shocked this shit isn't being taught in public schools.
Interesting query to all who read this: What type do you think Ada Lovelace was? Byron (yes, as in Lord Byron) was a quintessential rake and her undeniable father. Yet Ada was also his only "legitimate" offspring. His "Princess of Parallelograms" as he put it.
This is a person who was Bi, literally fucked his own Half-Sister, and never tried to hide that shit. A man who was fucked in the head harder would need to involve demons. Possession or obsession. One or the other...
The ILI comes off as cold and business focused because that's how/
tends to work.
is the PolR so yeah, we don't emote all that good.
is the motivating function so you can be damn sure that if we decide to give a damn about your cause or you as an individual you can be quite secure in the knowledge we'll do our best to do right by it.
It is the lamentable fact that the "Iron Law of Bureaucracy" fucks us ILI's so hard for good reason. End of the day, I just want to accomplish the stated end goals. Problem is, well, those who are more about preserving the existence of a bureaucracy and expanding its budget to infinity tend to end up running it.
Like Ronald Regan said: "There is no such thing so permanent as a 'temporary' government program"
Not sure if that's exact but I know that's close...
I think Ada and Byron were both IEI
PoLR - Extroverted Ethics, Fe
ILIs feel uncomfortable openly expressing their sympathies and positive affects. Thus, they may be seen as sober, practical, even utalitarian in their judgements, as well as emotionally cold and undesiring of relationships, however, this is often not the case. As a consequence, ILI may become reclusive and often feel out of touch with others. They may feel unconfident and uneasy in social settings, especially those in which they feel that are expected to abide by social conventions that they have little connection to such as tribesmanship or purposeless joviality. Additionally, ILIs tend to regard the development of trust with others with significant anxiety, fearing that their inner world or antisocial tendencies will be unfavorably looked upon by others, and that most of the good will and friendliness they see in others is a pretense of social interaction rather than an expression of genuine emotional reactions. Often ILIs eschew many social situations and neglect emotional association with groups, instead seeking deep emotional connections with individuals.
ILIs are often seen as especially negative, overly critical, and sometimes harsh in their judgments. This is in part because ILIs -- when serious -- tend to communicate in a very direct, straightforward manner. They are often unaware of others' reactions to their statements, which may be overly pragmatic and lacking in compassionate consideration. Many ILIs see their criticism as constructive and believe that they would be doing others no good by withholding their ideas. Because of their incessant criticism and negativism, ILIs are sometimes seen as haughty or arrogant.What you listed is not characteristic of 1D Fe types although more plausible for LII than for ILI, I suggest you to consider other TIM, like ILE, EII, or IEI (In fact half of the "self-typed ILIs" of this forum post almost everytime Fe-related content)Suggestive - Extroverted Ethics, Fe
LIIs are usually lacking in outward emotional energy. LIIs may typically seem stiff, cold, rational, unresponsive to emotional concerns, and overly formal in social settings. LIIs may feel uneasy and insecure about their adaptability to social situations. They appreciate the interactive efforts of others to make them feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group. They tend to liven up in situations of amusement and conviviality. In situations where they feel comfortable and unconditionally accepted, they may drop their tendency towards aloofness and engage in uncharacteristic silliness.
LIIs may be highly sensitive to the signs of emotional approval that they receive from others. They may be highly appreciative of displays of emotional warmth and friendliness. They may find normative emotional expectations placed on them to be stifling, and tend to prefer nonjudgmental environments without character scrutiny. Additionally, for fear of emotional reprisal, LIIs often tend to be rather noncritical of others' actions.
LIIs may be quite susceptible to acting in accordance to the mood of others, and may undervalue the importance of avoiding argumentation on their mental well-being.
Last edited by RBRS; 06-25-2022 at 01:41 PM.
I was considering the possibility of ILE... Still considering...
About EII. I don't think i really "relate" to it that much from reading the descriptions, especially that high of Fi
IEI is too "dreamy" i gotta say, don't know. Haven't read that much to judge
I've been considering LII-Ne for a while now after reading a lot of descriptions from a lot of websites / threads across the internet, but i thought that it's prone to be biased so i created this thread to gain external validations
It is in my principle to be honest and fair to myself, and "trying" to be objective is one of them.
I cannot force myself to be, for example : ILI
That's just betraying my real sense of self and it's really biased
Heck, maybe this is still me "trying" to be like that, even though i normally don't but because i found ILI / LII to be interesting so i tried to be like them subconsciously after reading the descriptions, who knows.
There's just too many paradoxical thoughts within my emotions and thoughts, it's difficult to know which is the real me, or which is me trying to be my ideal self.
Emotions are too difficult for me to comprehend sometimes...
Last edited by Fransiskus; 06-25-2022 at 12:23 PM. Reason: grammar
Two things, first, you don't have to apologize nor justify for wanting to clear out your type, second, when I was starting out in socionics I tried to do the same (to get objective validation) but doing this in this forum will lead you down a confusion spiral. People here are ironically better at anything they do except for socionics. Try to go to other places, there's also discord servers which will type you for free I think.I've been considering LII-Ne for a while now after reading a lot of descriptions from a lot of websites / threads across the internet, but i thought that it's prone to be biased so i created this thread to gain external validations
It is in my principle to be honest and fair to myself, and "trying" to be objective is one of them.
That's exactly what you should do, be yourself, not some old russian grandma's view of TIMs. It might be, afterall, that socionics doesn't work (there's a lot of arguments to be done for that) and it doesn't encapsulate how human cognition works. Don't take it too seriously, at first it seems like this is the key to understand everything, but it is actually the key to do the opposite.I cannot force myself to be, for example : ILI
That's just betraying my real sense of self and it's really biased
Heck,*maybe*this is still me "trying" to be like that, even though i normally don't but because i found ILI / LII to be interesting so i tried to be like them subconsciously after reading the descriptions, who knows.
Understandable, that's what i thought too sometimes, but Socionics is too interesting for me to abandon lol
For now, i consider myself more closely to be a LII-Ne compared to ILI-Ni after enough readings, though it's a very close call
I posted this elsewhere but I'll post it again as it's relevant. Say we're two utter strangers and you ask me if I think life is a game. Ceterus Paribus we'll assume both I and you possess a secure attachment style and see that as just an honest question and nothing more because of that.
If that resonates with you hard than you're an ILI/Gamma because of howpairs with
If you'd like to stop here and figure it out more slowly I both get and encourage that. If not, well, like I've said before. Don't ask the likes of me questions you truly don't want the answers to.
You single-handedly came up with the cheapest, most banal typing method, no offence intended. There's a thousand nurtural circumstances for any thought like that.I posted this elsewhere but I'll post it again as it's relevant. Say we're two utter strangers and you ask me if I think life is a game. Ceterus Paribus we'll assume both I and you possess a secure attachment style and see that as just an honest question and nothing more because of that.
If that resonates with you hard than you're an ILI/Gamma because of how
If you'd like to stop here and figure it out more slowly I both get and encourage that. If not, well, like I've said before. Don't ask the likes of me questions you truly don't want the answers to.
Gamma IMs are just that; IMs. These are filters for information, not "thinking patterns" as with some MBTI variants, there's no necessary thought coming along these filter combinations directly.
I'd agree with you. Hell I came up with it in response to a random thought. How to "brute force" a type somehow. Far as I could tell that was the best "brute force" method in regards to identifying a Gamma. The "nurture" you mention is handily accommodated for with my focus on attachment. If you're not healthy in the attachment department, than you won't be able to give an accurate answer. You'll instead give the answer you think is most likely to get the people around you at that time to like you.
That's the real tragedy of broken attachment and why it fucks everything up. Yeah, even Alpha's could, would, and do respond and say with convincing gusto that life is a game. Hell, they may even be able to truly resonate with that statement but the why of that resonance will be distinctly Alpha or unique that that individual.
To a point I'd argue. Again, the more desperate and miserable a person is the more the "same" they are in that regard. I will say it once more. Leo Tolstoy was wrong in the sense he got the order backwards. Happy people are interesting for they are all happy in their own unique way. Unhappy people are all the same. I think he's an IEI in most circles so that explains why I both like the dude, love his writing, yet palm my face as to how he failed to realize how close he was to the truth yet utterly missed it...
Kindred relation indeed now that I think about that as well. It's kinda hard having
Don't use subtypes to type yourself, this just adds more confusion especially when you really are Ni-ego.
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Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."
But your TIM is full of them...
Considering life a game may be specifically related to Ni, but Ni types may also vehemently hold the exact opposite stance (the clear perception of transcendent meaning is in many of them). It certainly isn't related to Te/Fi, but could be related much more to Fe (the actor's function). Your style of expression is not quite like ILI, either - they are rarely so dramatic, more dry, factual, boring. Consider the Beta intuitives as one of your types, or even the logicians, if you're sure in logic.I posted this elsewhere but I'll post it again as it's relevant. Say we're two utter strangers and you ask me if I think life is a game. Ceterus Paribus we'll assume both I and you possess a secure attachment style and see that as just an honest question and nothing more because of that.
If that resonates with you hard than you're an ILI/Gamma because of how
If you'd like to stop here and figure it out more slowly I both get and encourage that. If not, well, like I've said before. Don't ask the likes of me questions you truly don't want the answers to.
Ya do know that I'm working on becoming an author right? ILI "artists" are a rather common occurrence. All it really takes is a willingness to tell the more understood and comfortable
Say what you will about ILI's of various kinds, but damn near everyone has heard of the likes of Tesla, Heraclitus, Nietzche, Azimov, etc...
Also, clearly perceiving of a transcendent meaning does not in any way negate the assertion that life is ultimately a game. Who says playing the game actively isn't transcending the limits of what you thought was possible? The big question becomes why you continue to play despite knowing it's just a game.
My answer: "Because I can help them be better. I finally understand them."
Not in a haughty and elitist sense, but in a rather harsh "I've been there" sense. I seek to make them all truly free damnit! If I need to become the most hated figure in all of history to realize my end goals, well, so be it. Sad fact is my stances on most moral issues put me well along that path for, in my mind, utterly BS reasons. I mean fuck, how is asserting gender is a thing demonstrably provable with a DNA test or that third trimester abortions can easily be converted into a story about a sick and horrific sacrifice to a demon that the hero of the story ultimately averts isn't a damn good idea for a short story/pulp magazine clearly lacks
Running out of steam now. Need to sleep. Hope someone gets what I'm attempting to draw out of the collective unconscious here...
I will be more general, without taking in count subtypes.
LII have Ni demonstrative. I always see them gravitating towards mystical things, which can be medieval ballads, melancholic videogames, even religion. Even when they are scientists. This is common in EIIs too.
For ILIs I see the same interests in these thing, it's just they are a lot more immersed in it. LII still have Ti as their main goal so they can't live just "perceiving".
ILI are more prone to the arts in my opinion.
You can try to distinguish them better looking at their difference in functions position.
LII has Fe as suggestive. He is warm and sometimes naïve. He needs a dual who can just provide him Fe. They are simple in their needs relating to this. Still, they can be very lonely and have hard time engaging people, but they always seem very open to it if meet friendly people (infact, ESE is his dual).
ILI have Fe polr, so they instead keep psychological distance (Fi mob). If you enter too much their world they will probably go away (if you are not a very important person). In my experience they easily makes friend but hardly keep them if they look "weak". They go super well with high Se valuing types, like ESFps. I see in this a desire to keep relations with strong people, because of their suggestive Se.
LII have Se Polr: maybe I never met a LII enraged or impositive. They keep an aura of calmness even during discussions, ignoring rage of others. In this they are similiar to EII (The other Se Polr). I noticed that when discussions goes too far, they will try to be friendly or just make it stop in a calm way (at their break point, Fe wins).
ILI have Se as suggestive. They sometimes (maybe unconsciously or for unhealty ILI) becomes super angry but keep a calm expression (Si role). Still you can perceive their anger. If in social media chats they feel they are loosing an argument and can't reply with facts (because they are wrong), they will give expression to their anger with insults (Se being their break point).
LII ignores Te. My LII friend studies math at university and refused to learn theorems for his exams. He said he needs to demonstrate theorems without methods of others, but with his mind alone, improvising and elaborating an answer during the exam. He have problems connecting to the theories of others. He could, but he doesn't want to.
ILI have creative Te. They learn a lot of things and when they express them to others, these will look like "personal thoughts" (demonstrative Ti) while sometimes they just took a lot of informations before.
Last edited by Lesri; 07-17-2022 at 12:56 PM.
I never said you aren't allowed to use subtypes, but I said to not use it when you aren't firm of your own conclusion.
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Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."
LIIs seem more serious/critical/perfectionism at workplace than ILI, and pretty easy going when not doing something work relate. ILI value Te so they may use more outside "tricks" to get the job done.
obscure humor vs puns.
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