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Thread: Resisting your suggestive function

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    Default Resisting your suggestive function

    Pretty sure each person, at some point, resists their suggestive presumably to overindulge their lead. However, considering socionics theory, I'm interested in those who effectively resist their dual in favor of self supplying their own suggestive (which I'm not condemning)

    In other words, what happens when an SLI ignores a healthy IEE in order to engage Ne on his/her own. It's basically an SLI resisting a 4D Ne function to engage in a 1D Ne, perhaps, because he/she believes it's more comfortable.

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    I'm not sure if the suggestive is something that is usually resisted since it's both a valued and an unconscious function. There could be a situation where someone would be forced to ignore this suggestive function but I find it unlikely that it would be resisted. I also think that concentrating on your lead function wouldn't impede the suggestive function since they are best used in tandem.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    I'm not sure if the suggestive is something that is usually resisted since it's both a valued and an unconscious function. There could be a situation where someone would be forced to ignore this suggestive function but I find it unlikely that it would be resisted. I also think that concentrating on your lead function wouldn't impede the suggestive function since they are best used in tandem.
    Jung writes a lot about resisting the suggestive (inferior). He sees it as unhealthy. Chapter X of Psychylogical Types.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Jung writes a lot about resisting the suggestive (inferior). He sees it as unhealthy. Chapter X of Psychylogical Types.

    What did he mean by "resisting" it? Resisting an attempt to develop it, avoiding it in other people in real life, or something else?

    Because I need Fi like I need oxygen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Pretty sure each person, at some point, resists their suggestive presumably to overindulge their lead. However, considering socionics theory, I'm interested in those who effectively resist their dual in favor of self supplying their own suggestive (which I'm not condemning)

    In other words, what happens when an SLI ignores a healthy IEE in order to engage Ne on his/her own. It's basically an SLI resisting a 4D Ne function to engage in a 1D Ne, perhaps, because he/she believes it's more comfortable.
    Have you ever seen a monkey try to repair a jet engine? That's me, trying to develop my Fi.

    In my considered opinion, people who try to develop their suggestive functions rather than simply using what is provided by their Duals are the kind of people who want to make their own nuts and bolts. Fine, you can do that, but they are not going to perform very well and they are going to cost you thousands of times as much as the ones you can just buy from the people who effortlessly make them for a living.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    What did he mean by "resisting" it? Resisting an attempt to develop it, avoiding it in other people in real life, or something else?

    Because I need Fi like I need oxygen.
    I dont remember exactly what word he uses. But basically going too strong in the base loosing contact with your suggestive, to the point that it becomes negative and projected. Abnormal onesidedness.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Because I need Fi like I need oxygen.
    How so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Jung writes a lot about resisting the suggestive (inferior). He sees it as unhealthy. Chapter X of Psychylogical Types.

    Yeah, I can see that a person can concentrate on their lead function to an unhealthy to degree, but I don't think they could resist their suggestive function from an outside source especially when concentrating on their lead function since they don't conflict with one another.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    How so?
    @FreelancePoliceman, if I don’t have someone who loves me, my entire world seems to become pointless.

    The objects that I own become worthless and my accomplishments feel like wasted effort. Strat was right; LIEs need to know that someone cares about them. If they have that someone, then they can go forward knowing their flank is covered and they can accomplish amazing things.
    Without that someone, they sink into despair and leave in search of better opportunities.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-26-2021 at 02:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    I'm not sure if the suggestive is something that is usually resisted since it's both a valued and an unconscious function. There could be a situation where someone would be forced to ignore this suggestive function but I find it unlikely that it would be resisted. I also think that concentrating on your lead function wouldn't impede the suggestive function since they are best used in tandem.
    The suggestive are still two distinct function. Se is one function, while Ni is another. While I don't believe lead or suggestive impede one another, it is, IMO, possible to overindulge the lead due to it's comfort.
    As Adam Strange replied, a person is free to engage their suggestive and ignore a mentally healthy dual but is that the wisest choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    Yeah, I can see that a person can concentrate on their lead function to an unhealthy to degree, but I don't think they could resist their suggestive function from an outside source especially when concentrating on their lead function since they don't conflict with one another.
    Interesting. I have an SEI friend who's very into her routine and what makes her most comfortable. She can, sometimes,
    be very resistant to ideas which might ask her to leave her psychological comfort zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Jung writes a lot about resisting the suggestive (inferior). He sees it as unhealthy. Chapter X of Psychylogical Types.
    Aushra strayed from Jung's work to some extent. There were not even 8 "functions," according to Jung. There were 4.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman, if I don’t have someone who loves me, my entire world seems to become pointless.

    The objects that I own become worthless and my accomplishments feel like wasted effort. Strat was right; LIEs need to know that someone cares about them. If they have that someone, then they can go forward knowing their flank is covered and they can accomplish amazing things.
    Tbh, going by this, I could type as Fi Suggestive.


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    @Adam Strange
    I meant if going by "Adam Strange = Fi Suggestive / this is how Fi Suggestive is."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    @Adam Strange
    I meant if going by "Adam Strange = Fi Suggestive / this is how Fi Suggestive is."

    Lots of people, not only LIEs, need to know that they are loved by someone. But most LIEs might not know that about themselves. I don't think I consciously knew it until I read about it in Stratiyevskaya's description of ENTj-LIEs. And then I said, "Wait a minute. That's me."

    But needing to be loved by someone is not Fi-suggestive. I'm sure that ILEs need to feel loved, but when I showed an ILE a picture of an ESI that I was considering dating, he said "That woman looks evil." Fi vs Fe.

    So my description of Fi-suggestive is not very good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Aushra strayed from Jung's work to some extent. There were not even 8 "functions," according to Jung. There were 4.
    This is a natural phenomenon so differences in terminology dont matter that much as long as the phenomenon is observed correctly. Jung describes 8 functions, or 4x2=8 (4 functions each in introv/extrav attitude)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    This is a natural phenomenon so differences in terminology dont matter that much as long as the phenomenon is observed correctly. Jung describes 8 functions, or 4x2=8 (4 functions each in introv/extrav attitude)
    Observed "correctly" lol
    What I was basically saying is that Jung's model =/= Socionics model. It is also not mere terminology; there was the addition of Information Metabolism theory.

    Basically, you're calling the Suggestive function the Inferior function, and I'm saying these are simply two different models and it makes no sense to combine them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Observed "correctly" lol
    What I was basically saying is that Jung's model =/= Socionics model. It is also not mere terminology; there was the addition of Information Metabolism theory.

    Basically, you're calling the Suggestive function the Inferior function, and I'm saying these are simply two different models and it makes no sense to combine them.
    They are two models, but that doesn't mean that they are simply that or that they can't be combined. I think you are focusing too much on labels instead of the actual phenomenon. In a lot of cases you can in fact combine Jung and Socionics. In the case of suggestive / inferior it is about terminology because Jung and Socionics is talking about the same thing here. If this thread was about the polr then it wouldn't be possible to refer to Jung because he doesn't deal that much with the other weaker functions.

    I often refer to Jung because he has very high quality observations on the 8 functions, often the same things that people ask about, but were Socionics isn't accurate enough.

    The existence of psychic processes and their regularities is a phenomenon as old as mankind. It doesn't change just because you change some labels and make some additions to the model. This is ultimately about learning to observe these things in real life, so we'll not be able to settle this discussion now. There are also other threads were this has been discussed before.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lots of people, not only LIEs, need to know that they are loved by someone. But most LIEs might not know that about themselves. I don't think I consciously knew it until I read about it in Stratiyevskaya's description of ENTj-LIEs. And then I said, "Wait a minute. That's me."

    But needing to be loved by someone is not Fi-suggestive. I'm sure that ILEs need to feel loved, but when I showed an ILE a picture of an ESI that I was considering dating, he said "That woman looks evil." Fi vs Fe.

    So my description of Fi-suggestive is not very good.
    I see.

    Now I'm curious as to how she looks, lol.

    Tbh, I think every (neurotypical) person needs to be loved. Those who don't think they do are deluding themselves, and the only reason they are probably able to do so is because of not truly being without it (no friends, no family, no one). Humans are social creatures.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Now I'm curious as to how she looks, lol.
    @Noir, I'll send you a PM link to her picture. She dropped off Match right after I saw her, and that link will vanish in a few hours, too.

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    I always figured Fi was a passionate function, the desire to genuinely love.. Whereas some folk play pro basketball cause it's fun or financially lucrative, an Fi valuer might play the game because they love it. Any action or commitment toward the sport of basketball is an act of their passion or love for it

    When a Te-ego desire Fi, they desire the type of love driven from within and not motivated by the breadth of social ideology.

    Fe and Fi are warm. Strong Fi users are also strong Fe users. Each person values Fe or Fi, but how one prefers to receive the psychological warmth will differ based on those parameters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    However, considering socionics theory, I'm interested in those who effectively resist their dual in favor of self supplying their own suggestive
    Considering socionics theory this is almost impossible since suggestive is on the realm of unconscious. It can be resisted though, as you mentioned, since it's on the "careful" stack and not "bold".


    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    In other words, what happens when an SLI ignores a healthy IEE in order to engage Ne on his/her own
    This is called not needing narcissistic supply 'cause you're "full".

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    In some descriptions, there is some selectivity to the suggestive that is implied, in this way I think the suggestive can be "resisted".

    For example this quote by Gulenko on IEI's suggestive Se:

    Gets along with people who are sure of themselves, strong and determined. However, does not allow his relationships to turn into despotism - in such cases IEI will openly declare the stupidity and primitiveness of blunt force.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Pretty sure each person, at some point, resists their suggestive presumably to overindulge their lead. However, considering socionics theory, I'm interested in those who effectively resist their dual in favor of self supplying their own suggestive (which I'm not condemning)

    In other words, what happens when an SLI ignores a healthy IEE in order to engage Ne on his/her own. It's basically an SLI resisting a 4D Ne function to engage in a 1D Ne, perhaps, because he/she believes it's more comfortable.
    Hm, at first I doubted this but then I've seen it recently with myself. I asked an ESTj online group how to properly manage my time for a new school semester so I can get all my work done and study for all my tests stress free. One ESTj gave me a HUGE list and pretty much told me to schedule EVERY SINGLE THING I DO on a calender. This was too much Te to handle for my 1D Te. So I only took a grain of salt what she said, it felt like she was suggesting I become a Te machine, but from her point of view well that's natural. So yea sometimes the 4D of my suggestive can be overwhelming, still helpful but I don't see me having the capacity to do my 1D at the same level as someone's 4D.

    I also remember talking to an LIE who was trying to date this girl, and he brought up some of the girls problems, I started going over things this girl might be going through in her current relationship and why she might not be ready or willing to date him and he just looked at me with his head spinning and said "Bro idk wtf your talking about" lol.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 04-18-2022 at 07:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Pretty sure each person, at some point, resists their suggestive presumably to overindulge their lead. However, considering socionics theory, I'm interested in those who effectively resist their dual in favor of self supplying their own suggestive (which I'm not condemning)

    In other words, what happens when an SLI ignores a healthy IEE in order to engage Ne on his/her own. It's basically an SLI resisting a 4D Ne function to engage in a 1D Ne, perhaps, because he/she believes it's more comfortable.
    As a Creative subtype who mistyped as LSI for some time, I believe I can speak to this.

    I basically forced Se and tried to encorporate that into my career and personal life. I worked in pizza delivery and had an EIE girlfriend. I basically drove myself crazy by trying to be fit, paying attention to my environment, and exerting force to solve problems. I did make some headway in my career, but largely I was not as effective as I thought I should be. My car eventually crapped out and I don't think an LSI would have let that happen. My car also got really dirty, which was a testament to how oblivious I truly was to my surroundings.

    I still work a job that requires a lot of Se. I think it's almost like another form of indulgence because it starts feeling pretty heavy. Kind of like overeating or undereating. The only difference is, you suck at it and are rather oblivious.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 04-18-2022 at 08:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Hm, at first I doubted this but then I've seen it recently with myself. I asked an ESTj online group how to properly manage my time for a new school semester so I can get all my work done and study for all my tests stress free. One ESTj gave me a HUGE list and pretty much told me to schedule EVERY SINGLE THING I DO on a calender. This was too much Te to handle for my 1D Te. So I only took a grain of salt what she said, it felt like she was suggesting I become a Te machine, but from her point of view well that's natural. So yea sometimes the 4D of my suggestive can be overwhelming, still helpful but I don't see me having the capacity to do my 1D at the same level as someone's 4D.
    This is just like my ESI-Se cycling friend, he frequently mentions how he should improve his studying methods. I then provided him some tips based on my methods and experience, to which he said: "Well, every individual has their own way of studying, I believe." Like dude, I'm a couple years ahead of you, I went through the waves, I know what I'm talking about, what the best practices are and what common pitfalls are on the road to graduation. Don't keep whining about having to study more efficiently, if you aren't willing to keep notes of your lectures and ignore all those distracting (anti-)social media. On the other hand, he has taken to heart to study for his statistics exams first and foremost and to always keep up with the assignments for them. He's rather inconsistent about accepting my advice.

    My EII-Fi friend keeps getting into trouble with his scheduling. He always wants to meet up, but then he has a study deadline that he needs more time for, his girlfriends wants to visit his family, his job at the restaurant asks him to work an extra shift, in order to fill in a colleague with COVID, or he has to prepare the class of the next day for his teaching internship. For months already we have been scheduling appointments with him cancelling about 6 or 7 times, while I only had to cancel once, because my graduation supervisor wanted to meet up once more before he left for holiday. He's always rather sad when he has to cancel one of our appointments, because he enjoys hanging out together. He literally said that. I tried to analyse what's the common cause behind this all, and it turns out he has no agenda, no calendar, and no reminders of his appointments, promises, and responsibilities. He tries to do it all by head and it shows how well that works for him. I have urged him to start using Google Calendar to keep track of everything, which he agreed to might be necessary, but I doubt that he has actually followed through with it. I'll find out soon enough, because for tomorrow we planned to attend a cybersecurity lecture in the Hague. Perhaps I'll propose to grab dinner beforehand too, if it goes through. I sure hope so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post

    My EII-Fi friend keeps getting into trouble with his scheduling. He always wants to meet up, but then he has a study deadline that he needs more time for, his girlfriends wants to visit his family, his job at the restaurant asks him to work an extra shift, in order to fill in a colleague with COVID, or he has to prepare the class of the next day for his teaching internship. For months already we have been scheduling appointments with him cancelling about 6 or 7 times, while I only had to cancel once, because my graduation supervisor wanted to meet up once more before he left for holiday. He's always rather sad when he has to cancel one of our appointments, because he enjoys hanging out together. He literally said that. I tried to analyse what's the common cause behind this all, and it turns out he has no agenda, no calendar, and no reminders of his appointments, promises, and responsibilities. He tries to do it all by head and it shows how well that works for him. I have urged him to start using Google Calendar to keep track of everything, which he agreed to might be necessary, but I doubt that he has actually followed through with it. I'll find out soon enough, because for tomorrow we planned to attend a cybersecurity lecture in the Hague. Perhaps I'll propose to grab dinner beforehand too, if it goes through. I sure hope so.
    funny how that works i keep trying to meet this IEE. he wants to schedule things in advance. he twirls his leg. he gets sick. his job changes shifts. my mentality had always been that u just call someone when u can go in the moment and if they can reciprocate then u go and do it. u dont try to agonizingly organize ur time when things just change. and ppl who appoint everything like my father i really want ntohing to do with anymore at all. he doesnt give a shit about anyone's needs or changes hes gonna be whiny entitled and yelling anytime something doesnt go exactly as he himself wanted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    funny how that works i keep trying to meet this IEE. he wants to schedule things in advance. he twirls his leg. he gets sick. his job changes shifts. my mentality had always been that u just call someone when u can go in the moment and if they can reciprocate then u go and do it. u dont try to agonizingly organize ur time when things just change. and ppl who appoint everything like my father i really want ntohing to do with anymore at all. he doesnt give a shit about anyone's needs or changes hes gonna be whiny entitled and yelling anytime something doesnt go exactly as he himself wanted.
    He twirls his leg, as in he sprained his ankle?
    I don't do spontaneous, because I generally am so busy that I won't be able to see those people then. Yesterday a pal called to come by for a cup of coffee, but I was going to visit my Aunt, Uncle, and Cousin to celebrate Easter together. Much better would he text me a few days in advance, so we can set up a meet up, but he's more of a spontaneous fellow like you. So what I do instead is I reserve time for him in my schedule and then I call him at that moment to propose a "spontaneous" meet up to him. It works and both are happy.

    Follow-up, I chatted with my EII-Fi friend today and he has followed my advice, he purchased a classic paper agenda a few days ago.

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    I've noticed Si bases seem particularly put off by or scared of Ne. Jung wrote something to the effect that inferior Ne often manifests as fears and dark premonitions, which seems pretty accurate for the SxI I've known. I wonder if that's what goes on with them. I don't think I've ever seen any other types so hostile to their suggestive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    This is just like my ESI-Se cycling friend, he frequently mentions how he should improve his studying methods. I then provided him some tips based on my methods and experience, to which he said: "Well, every individual has their own way of studying, I believe." Like dude, I'm a couple years ahead of you, I went through the waves, I know what I'm talking about, what the best practices are and what common pitfalls are on the road to graduation. Don't keep whining about having to study more efficiently, if you aren't willing to keep notes of your lectures and ignore all those distracting (anti-)social media. On the other hand, he has taken to heart to study for his statistics exams first and foremost and to always keep up with the assignments for them. He's rather inconsistent about accepting my advice.

    My EII-Fi friend keeps getting into trouble with his scheduling. He always wants to meet up, but then he has a study deadline that he needs more time for, his girlfriends wants to visit his family, his job at the restaurant asks him to work an extra shift, in order to fill in a colleague with COVID, or he has to prepare the class of the next day for his teaching internship. For months already we have been scheduling appointments with him cancelling about 6 or 7 times, while I only had to cancel once, because my graduation supervisor wanted to meet up once more before he left for holiday. He's always rather sad when he has to cancel one of our appointments, because he enjoys hanging out together. He literally said that. I tried to analyse what's the common cause behind this all, and it turns out he has no agenda, no calendar, and no reminders of his appointments, promises, and responsibilities. He tries to do it all by head and it shows how well that works for him. I have urged him to start using Google Calendar to keep track of everything, which he agreed to might be necessary, but I doubt that he has actually followed through with it. I'll find out soon enough, because for tomorrow we planned to attend a cybersecurity lecture in the Hague. Perhaps I'll propose to grab dinner beforehand too, if it goes through. I sure hope so.
    Yea I definitely have had to learn NOT to just try and remember my appointments by keeping everything in my head, because I've screwed that up too many times, and yea it's unreliable, I even got fired from a gig because I'd pick up extra shifts, forget I picked them up and completely missed them thinking I didn't work that day. Anything that is out of the daily motions always fall by the way side. I had to get a calendar and a thumbtack, write the appointment on the calendar, stick the thumbtack on that day and hang my car keys on the thumbtack, because I knew that since I used my car keys everyday it would force me to look at the calendar everyday and see the appointment. I've also had to use a rubber band on my left wrist, and any time I had an obligation that I knew I would forget, I put the rubber band on my right wrist, this always catches my attention because it's never on the right wrist, and it always triggers the memory of why I put it on that wrist "OH I have to change my oil today." or something that doesn't normally happen week to week. I have to do tricks to remember things because my mind will just go on autopilot and forget them. And since I noticed I pay alot more attention to things outside of the ordinary I just figured that could be used to shock my mind into remembering things, which works.

    But with that said, the person that gave me advice told me to schedule EVERY SINGLE THING I do throughout the day, not just meetings or work stuff ,but eating, taking a break, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and her advice just was too overwhelming. I can't even imagine living such a programmed life like that, it does not feel natural, I'm not an algorithm that just runs it's program throughout the day, but this is very effective for breaking down a task for me, I write down all the parts in small chucks and run through it like a program, that does help, but this does not feel necessary for every aspect of my entire life. I only took the parts that made sense, like scheduling some break time to give myself a rest, because if I don't put a timer on break time it goes on too long and before I know it the day is gone but my work's not done. It's usually the things that are outside of my daily motions that need to be scheduled the most because I will simply forget them.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 04-18-2022 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I've noticed Si bases seem particularly put off by or scared of Ne. Jung wrote something to the effect that inferior Ne often manifests as fears and dark premonitions, which seems pretty accurate for the SxI I've known. I wonder if that's what goes on with them. I don't think I've ever seen any other types so hostile to their suggestive.
    They'll probably embrace Ne at their own pace and/or leisure. Si, probably more than any other function, focuses on its own comfort. Given that Ne is a "childish" function and not married to any one particular idea, can soothe an Si-lead's apprehension

    For example, if an SxI doesn't want to walk down an alley, the IxE will instead suggest grabbing a helicopter car & travel that way or maybe renting a monster truck if that wets their appetite

    But yeah, suggestive and lead have a funny psychological dance going

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Yea I definitely have had to learn NOT to just try and remember my appointments by keeping everything in my head, because I've screwed that up too many times, and yea it's unreliable, I even got fired from a gig because I'd pick up extra shifts, forget I picked them up and completely missed them thinking I didn't work that day. Anything that is out of the daily motions always fall by the way side. I had to get a calendar and a thumbtack, write the appointment on the calendar, stick the thumbtack on that day and hang my car keys on the thumbtack, because I knew that since I used my car keys everyday it would force me to look at the calendar everyday and see the appointment. I've also had to use a rubber band on my left wrist, and any time I had an obligation that I knew I would forget, I put the rubber band on my right wrist, this always catches my attention because it's never on the right wrist, and it always triggers the memory of why I put it on that wrist "OH I have to change my oil today." or something that doesn't normally happen week to week. I have to do tricks to remember things because my mind will just go on autopilot and forget them. And since I noticed I pay alot more attention to things outside of the ordinary I just figured that could be used to shock my mind into remembering things, which works.
    I have forwarded this to my EII-Fi friend as advice. So the thumbtacks are strong enough to carry your car keys it appears, that's interesting, because I never thought of thumbtacks being that strong or are your car keys simply not part of a keychain, hence they're more lightweight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    But with that said, the person that gave me advice told me to schedule EVERY SINGLE THING I do throughout the day, not just meetings or work stuff ,but eating, taking a break, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and her advice just was too overwhelming. I can't even imagine living such a programmed life like that, it does not feel natural, I'm not an algorithm that just runs it's program throughout the day, but this is very effective for breaking down a task for me, I write down all the parts in small chucks and run through it like a program, that does help, but this does not feel necessary for every aspect of my entire life.
    I'm a Te lead and even I don't do that. I simply have a certain rhythm, such as starting the day and ending it by running all updates for my programs and Operating System (OS), answering all my WhatsApp, Discord, Socionics, and electronic mail messages in the morning and thereafter getting some tasks on my To Do list done in between my calendar appointments of that day.

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    I feel like I need Te for specific purposes like if I need to do something I dont like and dont want to do, so I can get the boring task out of the way. I generally do find it easier to communicate to people on the Fi-Te axis, but that is changing over the years, I can find common ground with most people.

    I am probably more grateful to assistance with sensory things than help with Te organisational things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karbonkel View Post
    I feel like I need Te for specific purposes like if I need to do something I dont like and dont want to do, so I can get the boring task out of the way. I generally do find it easier to communicate to people on the Fi-Te axis, but that is changing over the years, I can find common ground with most people.

    I am probably more grateful to assistance with sensory things than help with Te organisational things.
    I noticed one time when I was in super Te mode I was able to relate to more people in conversation, I felt more well rounded and like a normal adult person lol, like I had general knowledge about general things that people normally find useful to talk about, I didn't feel out of the loop like I usually do. But it only lasted about a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I have forwarded this to my EII-Fi friend as advice. So the thumbtacks are strong enough to carry your car keys it appears, that's interesting, because I never thought of thumbtacks being that strong or are your car keys simply not part of a keychain, hence they're more lightweight?



    I'm a Te lead and even I don't do that. I simply have a certain rhythm, such as starting the day and ending it by running all updates for my programs and Operating System (OS), answering all my WhatsApp, Discord, Socionics, and electronic mail messages in the morning and thereafter getting some tasks on my To Do list done in between my calendar appointments of that day.
    Nah thumbtacks are pretty strong, I also don't have a ton of keys on my keychain. But I use thumbtacks for all sort of things, I thumbtacked a small basket to my bedroom door with and filled it with things I don't want to forget before I leave the house, it's all gotta be in sight to be in mind for me.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 04-21-2022 at 08:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    They are two models, but that doesn't mean that they are simply that or that they can't be combined. I think you are focusing too much on labels instead of the actual phenomenon. In a lot of cases you can in fact combine Jung and Socionics. In the case of suggestive / inferior it is about terminology because Jung and Socionics is talking about the same thing here. If this thread was about the polr then it wouldn't be possible to refer to Jung because he doesn't deal that much with the other weaker functions.

    I often refer to Jung because he has very high quality observations on the 8 functions, often the same things that people ask about, but were Socionics isn't accurate enough.

    The existence of psychic processes and their regularities is a phenomenon as old as mankind. It doesn't change just because you change some labels and make some additions to the model. This is ultimately about learning to observe these things in real life, so we'll not be able to settle this discussion now. There are also other threads were this has been discussed before.
    omg! Thank you. I've gotten completely sick of even wanting to talk about this stuff anymore with anyone online because of this. I tried joining PDB, but users start going crazy with all these typings systems that use the same functions and saying they all are different and then insulting people by saying someone's type is obvious in one system, but different in another, yet it's the same shit lmao. I just ended up posting jokes and trolling people...I think typology just brings out everyone's neurosis!

    I think Papa Jung needs to come back from the dead and smack everyone with his holy scrolls!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzombieLIT View Post
    omg! Thank you. I've gotten completely sick of even wanting to talk about this stuff anymore with anyone online because of this. I tried joining PDB, but users start going crazy with all these typings systems that use the same functions and saying they all are different and then insulting people by saying someone's type is obvious in one system, but different in another, yet it's the same shit lmao. I just ended up posting jokes and trolling people...I think typology just brings out everyone's neurosis!

    I think Papa Jung needs to come back from the dead and smack everyone with his holy scrolls!
    I can tell you are LII, because you are Ne for one, killing Ni, leaving 8 types. You are intuitive killing 4 more. You are not ILE nor IEE, you ring NT.

    The OMG and being ''sick of things", as you put it will land you F here at 16T. Guaranteed. You are not EII with Fe ignore.

    You like privacy, even cherish it, but you come across as male. Am I right?



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    @Distance

    This post isn't necessarily directed at you, but just how I feel generally about people constantly criticizing and moaning about Socionics, while never elucidating on the positives:

    lol, this place, it's like solipsism taken to 10th degree.

    But yes, I am LII. I know that bugs people :stop: This isn't science :stop: And we can't prove anything lol. :right?: HAHA

    There was a user from long ago...Ashton (Asston). He was kind of an asshole (from my perspective), seemed to be going through some kind of neurotic pattern (like most people into socionics lol), wanted to wipe the forum (reasons I won't speculate), but he did understand something...most people don't read Jung...they don't seem to understand it. So what you get here is mostly biased, highly interpretive -> bullshit.
    But Jung, he was like a mystical mathematician, intertwining philosophy and the subjective human experience, creating a framework useful for abstractly modeling our "subjectivity". That's fucking amazing. But it gets completely sidestepped for people's bullshit reasons.

    Like, just typing in "subjectivity in psychology" into chatgpt 3.5 gives a better answer than I could ever come up with it. And Jung's framework does, maybe not a perfect job of doing this, but it's fucking amazing how much of it it does cover!

    In psychology, subjectivity plays a significant role in understanding human behavior and mental processes. Here's how subjectivity is relevant in various aspects of psychology:

    1. Perception and interpretation: Individuals perceive and interpret the world around them through subjective filters shaped by their unique experiences, beliefs, and cultural backgrounds. This subjectivity influences how they interpret sensory information, make judgments, and form opinions.
    2. Emotions and feelings: Emotions are inherently subjective experiences that vary from person to person and can be influenced by a wide range of internal and external factors. Understanding the subjective experience of emotions is crucial in areas such as clinical psychology, where therapists work to help individuals manage and understand their emotional states.
    3. Personality: Personality traits and characteristics are often assessed subjectively through self-report measures, interviews, and observations. While efforts are made to standardize assessment tools, individual differences in interpretation and response style can introduce subjectivity into personality assessment.
    4. Psychopathology and diagnosis: Diagnosing mental disorders involves assessing subjective symptoms reported by the individual and making judgments based on standardized diagnostic criteria. However, the interpretation of symptoms and the determination of diagnosis can be influenced by the clinician's subjective judgments, training, and biases.
    5. Therapeutic process: In psychotherapy, the therapeutic process is highly subjective, with the therapist and client collaborating to explore the client's subjective experiences, thoughts, and feelings. The effectiveness of therapy often depends on the quality of the therapeutic relationship and the degree to which the therapist can empathize with and understand the client's subjective perspective.
    6. Cultural and cross-cultural psychology: Subjectivity is particularly evident in the study of cultural differences in psychology. Cultural norms, values, and beliefs shape individuals' subjective experiences of themselves and others, influencing behavior, cognition, and emotion in diverse ways.

    While subjectivity poses challenges in psychological research and practice, acknowledging and understanding subjective experiences is essential for gaining insight into human behavior and promoting well-being. Researchers and practitioners strive to balance subjectivity with objectivity by using rigorous methods, standardized measures, and critical reflection to minimize bias and enhance the validity and reliability of psychological knowledge.

    Psychology is the science of subjectivity! Yes, a paradox to the "pure scientist". But psychology isn't a study of the "objective" and I do not understand the hang-up with this. To both complain about it not being objective, while denying it's utility, is like saying people are bullshit because we have subjectivity lmao. But you can frame subjectivity!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzombieLIT View Post
    [But you can frame subjectivity!
    Any way you want (if you can afford it)!

    Jk

    You may want to have a look at consensus-creating processes. I know it sounds pretty abstract, but still.
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 05-30-2024 at 01:21 PM.

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    I'll try to answer the op question.

    The suggestive "function" is theoretically an "unconscious" phenomenon happening within the psyche at the contact of the dual (or by process of self dualization). When it comes to duals, It's more about the quality and fluidity with which the information is transmitted from psyche to psyche than the nature of the Information aspect itself. Resisting the suggestive function implies a certain awareness of the mechanism itself to begin with but most importantly that notion clashes with the very meaning of the term "unconscious". Indeed, as we know, the information treated by the suggestive function stems from the vital Ring, it happens automatically as it were. The duals in this instance transmit information to each other from their Lead to their suggestive exactly the way each others psyche unconsciously wants it to be transmitted, there is therefore no psychological "resistance" to that phenomenon.

    Please Note that I don't know what I'm talking about !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    You may want to have a look at consensus-creating processes. I know it sounds pretty abstract, but still.
    wait wait wait.

    You mean like, we all agree on definitions/understandings/meanings/foundational-knowledge? And go from there?

    as opposed to

    Everyone has their own interpretation?

    Assuming that's what you mean, is it even possible at this point? I'd like it if we could talk about the actual foundations of it all and go from there, but it seems like the typology community doesn't want that.

    Something like

    Step 1: 8 types -> Leading function -> Start with Chapter X on pyschological Types
    Step 2: 16 types -> Adds creative -> Something like Socionics. Talk about what people think Socionics has right or wrong and whether Jung "should" be improved or ignored or whether we are oversimplifying things with Socionics. For example, people often criticize Socionics for having Alpha bias because it was made by Alphas. We could go back to Jung and see how things are wrong or at least talk about it. (But maybe people have already done that and those people are gone, I don't know). At least people could actually say what's "different" between Socionics and Jung, without just saying "it builds upon it, so we can say it's different. Okay, what's different exactly?".
    Step 3: 64 type -> Gulenko DCNH -> Build upon the 16. Start to actually explain the differences. Supposedly Dario Nardi supports Gulenko's typing system. But we can't really talk about this, until we talk about the other levels first. I'm open to Gulenko's subtypes, but I've largely ignored them because it's hard enough just trying to talk about Socionics 16 or even Jung's 8 types, let alone DCNH, lol.

    It's like learning algrebra before calculus, right? Mathematics.

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