Fe creatives & lying
If I asked an Fe-creative their take on a particular person & they lied, that wouldn't be unusual
I've had Fe-creatives randomly talk shit about a particular person then turn around, be tight, chatty & be best friends with that person.
What makes Fe-creatives lie when there's no reason to?
Fe-people care more for the group mood than they do for their own values. Fe vs Fi.
Scenario #1: Everyone agrees on how things should be done, except for one crazy asshole who's refusing to listen to common sense.
Scenario #2: You've been designing a system and you found a shortcut which doesn't specifically go against the rule book but it isn't mentioned explicitly, either, but it's quick and cheap and it works in a breakthrough way, and to not do it will waste days and tens of thousands of dollars.
Which is Fe and which is Fi?
There is always a reason, but we’re not going to admit that LOL
Do I like to lie, hell no. I would rather be honest and I try to be as honest as I can. But sometimes when you got your own logic and convictions pulling you one way and then the social atmosphere pulling you in the other to keep it positive, sometimes you lie to keep freaking sane. If you start telling the truth, you are expecting a lot more chaos then you wish and that’s not something I want to deal with. „Don't rock the boat, don’t rock the boat Baby~“
People react bad to the truth a lot more then you think. I’ve learned to shut up on that regards and would rather keep the peace then fight someone in regards to their little bubble. Life can be a lot less stressful when you tell people what they want then what you actually want and think lol People tend to leave you alone more in regards to that.
Is it truly a lie in a way? Fe tends to vent and can say mean things doing so, but it doesn't mean they dislike the person deep down, or they do and they are being nice because they can't fathom not being nice. I think the answer can also be filtered through trying to either encourage or discourage a relationship that is judged as favorable or potentialy problematic.
Fe, being dynamic, I think is being built up according to the situation, so the result may vary and look contradictory at times.
This reminds me of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice where the mom, mrs. Bennet says she always thought mr. Darcy was great even tho she bad-mouthed him before.
His behavior was incorrect, so he was bad, and once it was corrected, according to what the mom think is correct, he became good. The current judgement is ultimate and overwrites all those past.
Te does similar, dynamic function are annoying like that, lol.
The bolded is in stark contrast to the modus operandi of Fi-dom ESIs. With them, once they decide you are good or bad, that's it. You're stuck in that category forever.Originally Posted by flowers and sugar
Awesome reply
There was nothing I wanted to hear, honestly. My opinion is this person is wishy washy through overindulgence of Fe. She'll give a random take then behave contrary to that original take. These were random takes nobody asked fer for. They were social expectations she completely imagined
It be interesting to hear what those reasons are actually. Would you like a beer to lower those inhibitions?
Edit:. For reference, this Fe-creative says she dislikes this old lady, then chats her up like some sorta bff otherwise
some people lie a lot. by different reasons. even seems for fun or to look better
saw such at Fi too. mb Fe more predisposed. all were F types, incl. base F. "alike" noticed at one T
to behave too friendly for them can be a kind of another lie for their interests, while real relation mb worse
so they may lie about a human to who they want to make a harm
excessive lieing may relate to psychopathic/criminal personality and hysterical accentuation. not obligately leads to serious harm from them, though. they may betray easier. some of them may have or say strangely high opinion about own traits and achievements
if they'll start to believe in own fantasies it will be close to psychosis disorder. do not exclude higher % of such diagnoses among them and their relatives
if those people had better intelligence, they'd lied lesser primitively and open. and had lesser need to break social norms to get what they want
Last edited by Sol; 07-25-2021 at 05:27 PM.
It's a lie, especially when the "bad" person's behavior never changed.
T-types seem better capable of divorcing themselves from the ethics of a situation.
How were they talking shit?
First, I have been guilty of this. Especially the random takes that we’re completely imagined. I like to think it’s just cause of the influence from the PI function is why we may perceive these things wrong and not are always objective in this aspect.
I will let you know on a little secret, I didn’t drink for a very long time. Part of the reason other then acholhism in my family and often people with social anxiety tend to develop a drinking addiction more, was that I really afraid that people were actually going to hear what I REALLY think and let that slip. Mind you, it’s very rare that I have legitimate negative views or perceptions of anyone. But I have my own hot takes and got my own little black box that I reallllllly don’t want people to hear. Thankfully, I can still keep that in check when drunk, but I do spill a bit more with less of a filter. If you really want to get what a Fe creative things, you have to get direct and detailed. The more direct someone is with me, the more likely I spill or at least, spill a little bit. I can’t run……but you gotta box them in and can’t escape! Part of the reason ILE kinda scare me in this region LOL
I don’t understand that personally, I find it strange that people will go an talk with people they dislike. If I dislike someone, I don’t go out of my way. I have two reasons why people may do that, some people do that cause they would rather keep the peace so they will be unassuming in their dislike or they like to play the social game and keep friends close but enemies closer kind of thing.
The Fe-creative talks as if the person is nuisance, a burden & won't leave her alone then does absolutely everything to encourage the person to continue acting that way.
The Fe-creative tells me the person is annoying & a dork rather than anything actually bad.
All types lie, many are not good at it. Fe-types tend to pander to the room rather than the individual which may explain the so-called "turn around"; they're doing it for their own images and or for other people in the room. EIEs followed by IEIs seem to have natural abilities to make their stories convincing in a dynamic sense.
a.k.a. I/O
Appreciate the take. Seems you understand yourself & social graces well.
I never ask one person their opinion on another. It isn't a fair question to ask cause relationships aren't cut & dry or mechanical. People can interact with whomever they like for whatever reason.
Wishy-washiness & absolute social dishonesty grinds my gears
Fe is Atmosphere/emotions....
Fi is likes/dislikes/relations....
So don't expect FE to hold hate towards a bunch of people, and don't expect FI to be nice just for the sake of it....
Ni leads live in the sands of time, watching, not often aware of what they can do. It's the victim thing, stuff happens and they don't think about fighting it, unless a fight is happening. They don't think of acting, so they react.
There's a part of me that hoped if I became good enough, things and people would become good magicaly, doesn't work, lol. That gets better once they hold people to some personal standards, Ti. Ni(or Si) observes things, Fe judges the external situation, then this is held to standards through introverted judgement which can take a long time to build, only after are actions taken.
Those lies are symptoms that something isn't making its way yet.
I think talking about lying can shake things up and help along the way, tho it requires the will to grow to be present in the person. Being a bull in a china shop is probably a plus here. "Probably" because I haven't seen it, I just think it makes sense.
Sounds like the Fe-creative is trying to keep the peace
Okay, I don't think it's lying.
I've seen this behaviour in other people and it really irked and puzzled me, but I don't think I do that. I don't appear that way with anyone I don't like.
If it's in private, then I won't lie about what I think about a person. However, if I don't like somebody, it's still really easy for them to change my mind. That's if it's like one specific thing that made me dislike them. The most I'll do if I see them is maybe smile, but I won't really talk to them. If I see that I had the wrong impression of them, then my mind changes but it looks to other people like I'm talking to them under false pretense, which is untrue. This is also why I find it best to keep my thoughts about people to myself because it's very difficult for someone to get me to really really dislike them.
Now, if it's a person has behaved in a certain way over a significant amount of time, I will not speak to them, I will not look at them, they won't exist to me.
I also don't like the awkward feeling of being in a group with someone I dislike so I usually resort to avoiding them at all cost. If I can't avoid them, I won't go out of my way to be mean to them. I'll just act like my natural self...which is (sometimes unfortunately) nice. Idk if that's what seems like acting as if they're my friend.
But for the most part, I'll avoid the person and not really speak to them.
So, finally, it's not lying (for me). My mind just changed about the person and I didn't make it known.
Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome
No. The other person didn't change. Saying her "mind changed" about someone is groupthink translation for "I'm needy & I finally found something I can use them for".
My SEI-Si pal did and still does this on the rare occasion we talk...
I'm convinced Fe creative is more scared of true conflict than any other type. Type 9 has an association with 4D Fi/3D Fe generally, which makes this an even greater fear. Te PoLR makes xEIs less inclined to state things bluntly off the bat. The kind of straightforward language and dialogue that Te+Fi uses, for example, disarms them, and so they often focus on adapting the tone of their Fe to the conversation, even if this means modifying the delivery of their true thoughts if the pressure to do so is present.
Your take could aid others experiencing this type of BS.
I used the word "lie" rather than "disingenuous" cause sugar coating (or being indirect) Is dumb here. Never approached or asked her about anything so any social pressure present was her own self creation
You might be right about Fe-creatives being the most neurotic about conflict
I am going to get a little blunt here. Forgive me if I come across a bit harsh but this statement has rubbed me the wrong way personally that I don’t think a lot of XLE realize. I don’t know the whole entire situation or the perceived social expectations so I don’t feel comfortable commenting on or making a judgement on it. I do however, want to comment on the societal pressure created by oneself.
Yes, there are at times that I do think XIE have created a societal pressure perceived that was not there however, that is where our strength lies. I can understand why XLE may view us as lying or see that there in so „societal pressure“ be we are more actually aware of this then you may think. A lot of XLE can see and understand the object social expectation, a lot of them don’t understand the undercurrent of it and don’t realize the objective social pressure is lifted simply because the Fe-creative is manipulating the under current to keep it objectively that way. The amount of times I have had to swallow my own feelings and smooth things over to keep a pleasant Fe-harmony and expectations running is pretty high. I don’t like conflict. I rather heavy dislike it, so I really don’t like getting in the middle of things when I don’t have to and I think that is fair to say. It can effect me a lot. Same on the flip side with those who are more comfortable with conflict.
My main point is that just because you may not see it or understand in an objective sense that there is no pressure, it doesn’t mean that the person isn’t feeling it on a subjective basis and may be seeing something that you may not be seeing. Sometimes, there is no subjective aspect and it was created in our heads. However there is often a good reasoning and subjective view that they are not telling you. I don’t talk about unless im asked and rarely am I asked or rather, rarely questioned to understand my perspective. So I keep it to myself because of push back as well. Many a times I have given a subjective view on something and I am met with objective rejection. It’s not until down the line that some of them start questioning why I see things that way and start too see things in the objective world and realize that they were wrong.
I don’t want to come across that what you are seeing or what is actually happening in the disruption is not true. I may honestly agree with you if you told me the whole story in detail in the way she is acting. Just, it bugged me that just because something isn’t seen or understand by the person in an objective manner, it doesn’t mean that you should always throw out someone’s subjective view, understanding, or perspective on things right away because they may actually be right.
I don't really engage in this behavior, though I suppose I have a few times, maybe. I also though, am an enneagram 4. That may have a big role, given 4 thrives be authentic and is withdrawn. I also lack social interactions, so that also can be factoring. I have vented my frustrations to some people (called them dick, vented how they were acting mean) and then was neutral with the person. not overly nice, but neutral. I won't just act like they are my best friend.. That is stupid. I have criticized people's view before (elsewhere, behind their back), and act like i never have problem with their views and even engage conversation about those views I disagree with, but it is not malicious intent, and I just don't want them to have hurt feelings or to have bad view of me. it's always over mild things, though. I never will just suppress something that I completely am against or that I stand for. I will tell them to their face, even if in a roundabout, subtle way.
But for other creative Fe's, it probably has do with Fe being more loose and lesser firmly fixed in their views, and they can fleet, and they lack will to assert the shit talking, wanting keep harmony. Especially with SEi which more so values harmony because of Si.
Last edited by Braingel; 07-26-2021 at 11:11 AM.
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
I have seen this behavior more in Fe bases, to be honest. My ESE mother is notorious for this, and I have seen Jordi and also a guy named Hussar do it.. They both are EIE. I have seen a user named Gian Carlo do it, who also is EIE.. Jordi and Gian are E6 and Hussar is a 3. my mother is a 2. Image triad (excluding 4) and 6 make sense for shit talking. 6 pressures by community and feels attacked and reacts back, and 2 and 3 deal with others more and manipulating them to have a good image...
I think IEI is less likely than the other Fe types to do of this, because we have Se as suggestive and seek to be assertive, and our Fi (like in an SEI) is 4D. We also with our Ni may see how in long term this can backfire. I am also generally speaking, pretty nonjudgmental. I can be judgmental over some things, if I am emotionally triggered, but.. I see the roots of things, and it makes it harder to judge, since I see the true issue and it is just a symptom of the root, of what presents.
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
I have seen Fi PolRs do this as well, by the way. Both ILE and SLE.
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
I have seen EII do it as well, enneagram type 2 ones. An EII that is typical will just avoid the person, given they do not want with Se PolR, face conflict.. but enneagram 2 makes them more Fe-like. They won't be overly nice, but will treat person with decency and will not vocalize their dislike, very similar to my own tactic. EII 2 is Fe like, whereas IEI 4 is Fi-like.
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
Everyone lies for different reasons. I mean have you ever seen the movie Liar Liar?
I lie, not by providing false information, but by providing incomplete information.
Caveat emptor.
If I’m being chatty with someone that I’ve talked shit about, I may be doing it to try to get to know or understand that person better, and understand the things I was talking shit about. Or I feel like I have to go along because they are accepted by ‘the group’ and I have to ‘play nice.’
if someone asked my opinion on a person and I lied, that would prob mean I dont trust the person who asked with the truth.
There is this funny passage from a pseudo-horror movie :
Two divorcees use the classified ads from a newspaper (during the 90's) to meet a new partner. No pictures of course, text only. The woman sees the ad of the guy and calls him. They make plans for a dinner, and the guy says "...you won't have trouble finding me at the restaurant, I have very short hair on the sides of the head".
When the guy shows up, you can see a balding guy : the short hair on the sides was all he had.
Lol. I totally get that. She's lucky that he omitted something that she could see, and not the fact that he has the heart of a child. He keeps it in a jar on his desk.
I met a woman from Match in an open air market for the first time. She looked at me and did a double-take. "You don't look like your pictures," she said.
"They are all recent. Do I look better or worse in person?", I asked.
She was IEI and very diplomatically did not answer. Which meant, of course, worse.
I figured it out later. My hair is at an in-between stage of going gray. Indoors, it looks brown. In bright sunlight, it looks gray. Oh, well.
Oddly enough, she wanted a second date.
Cool perspective.
You might have a point. XEIs use Fe as a tool to assuage their lead, meaning Fe may not be as genuine as sone believe.
Exactly why I never ask such questions.
Unoffended.
Good take, man. This thread was pretty much a question, not a condemnation. I asked here cause her behavior irritated me & presumed an Fe-ego would give a relevant reply
I dig that you Fe-egos have greater ethical sophistication than I do & that you seek to "control' or improve the ethical atmosphere. My issue wasn't her preference for the other gal, but that she randomly tells me one thing then behaves different.
An example:
Let's say I tell you, privately, that Adam Strange is annoying & a scrub. You never asked for this but I tell you this shit anyway.
On the forum, you see me tag him, quote him, joke with him & refer to certain PMs during random posts.
After that, I'd continue telling you he was a dork in private, while you gave no opinion at all. My behavior might, rightly, be annoying to you
It's true you dont know the entire story but your responses here are relevant anyway because your an Fe-ego and I'm not.
Edit:. Adam Strange's name was just used as an example
Regarding Fe bases: I think either they don’t lie so frequently/are so intentionally deceitful as Fe creatives, or if they do lie, it doesn’t seem to be compulsive for them.
I’ve known more ESE than EIE, so this may not be as true for EIE, but something strikes me as much more deceitful about xEI. The ESE I’ve known generally tell white lies to smooth things over, usually to questions like “what do you think of my...” But these types of lies seem to be in accord with their values, and I’ve never known an ESE to be particularly conflicted about their answer; if you press them they’ll just be annoyed and tell you they felt they were doing the right thing; end of story. They also don’t seem to mind telling the truth when they perceive it will be more appreciated. xEIs give me an impression of having more “flexible” values, and I don’t think it’s just about “not rocking the boat” with them — not only do they strike me as more willing to lie to get ahead materially, they seem to be looking constantly for ways to do this. Their lies are more of a sort that if you press them, they get cagey or defensive and avoid coming up with justifications for what they said.
When I was in a relationship with an SEI, something that I really didn’t like was a feeling she would never quite level with me. She’d tell me something, something would strike me as not quite right about her response, and I’d have to ask a million questions to get something approximating the truth. Or I’d have to come up with outright evidence she’d been lying to me and say “what gives.” What bothered me most was a feeling like any time she’d lie it was over something inconsequential — like there was no reason to do it, yet she’d do it anyway.
I don’t want to give too many examples, but for instance, one time she decided to try going back on antidepressants, without telling me, since she knew I disapproved. The first day she began taking them I asked if she’d been taking anything, since her behavior seemed different. “...No.” It wasn’t until much later she admitted it. And that’s the sort of thing I mean — regarding an example like that, I’m not exactly a very angry person IRL, and I never tried to control her personal decisions like that. If she’d had said “yes” I would have sighed and asked for how long she was planning to stay on them. So the feeling was she’d be willing to lie to me just to escape a feeling I’d disapprove of her — but even in that instance, it was like she never thought I’d be actually mad to find she lied to me over almost nothing!
Maybe this was just a particularly unhealthy relationship, but given the xEI I’ve known, I can’t imagine this is too atypical. Given the assumption that xLE are supposedly perfect for them, I wonder if xLE like being kept on their toes. Personally, I don’t.
Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 07-26-2021 at 03:47 PM.
I've read that IEI/SLE engage in psychological games of this particular nature. Its one of those things that keeps the relationship interesting & not boring.
I don't mind if this shit really is a game but I suppose I'd have to her ask myself.
I have an LII-Ti sister and an IEI-Fe cousin, and they get along pretty well, but my LII sister said she liked everything about the IEI except her lying.
I was kind of surprised at that. I spent half of my life before age 18 hanging with the IEI, and I didn't think she lied, exactly. She'd sometimes embellish the truth, or she'd say something that was so outrageous that no one could take it seriously, but I never really caught her in what I'd call a lie. Of course, I didn't pay that close attention to what she was doing and saying, mainly because she and I operated in completely different realms, but I never thought she "lied".
My LSE mother hated my IEI cousin, and once, she told me that when the IEI's parents were on vacation, the IEI sold half their furniture, which I thought was completely unbelievable, but then again, I wasn't there. I mean, that branch of the family were all Betas: IEI, LSI, EIE, and IEI, so anything was possible.
I can't remember asking the IEI if she did that, or not.
Interesting.
According to socionics theory, the lead function is the program & the creative is the primary tool used to implement the program's agenda. It suggests that the creative is a social function whose purpose protect the lead & guard it like a parent
In other words, if you understand the lead's agenda anything the creative might be inconsequential.
Yes, my IEI-Fe cousin was kind of Ni dreamy and she was completely lacking in practical skills (I mean, she could open a car door, but that's about it. Show her a light switch and she's seeing Alien Technology.), but she Fe knew absolutely everyone and I admired and envied her for that skill. She was also best friends with a girl I'd have given my left nut to get close to. I mean, seriously. Body parts which were not my penis. But my IEI cousin would not set me up. She said we were too different. Lol. In retrospect, she was 100% correct.
It used to drive me crazy that she was like a two-year old when it came to any technology, but was a way-beyond-me super genius when it came to people.
Idk thinking about freelance post (I'm being lazy and can't bother with tags)...
I agree ESE has the potential to be incredibly honest and what you see is what you get emotionally. However, I've known a couple who were pretty nasty.
I personally can lie to evade situations or things that might be done to me but in these cases the lie will often be half true and really if you look at it slightly differently it can be seen as all true within context. This is bc I don't really want to be "caught" and this way I can't be bc it's too amorphous. Although, the less I pay attention the more I increase my risks.
In close relationships though I don't really lie much. Most of my lying is simple, and is trying to cope with the onslaught of the external world.
As for games, sometimes things are both a game and not a game; true in a certain light to communicate that truth not to be universally true, etc.
Eta: I also feel a strain with Fi in that even though it's unvalued it has to keep weighing in on everything, and the valued Fe/Ti is always trying to work around how judgey it is. The aim isn't really to be clear on all personal attitudes to all people... I like to keep that info hidden and in part it's bc unlike with Fi lead, the Fi attitudes I have actually ARE more wishy-washy. I mean, Fe creative adapts to Fi polr duals, if it got all eii about it's Fi attitudes, that wouldn't work so well lol
Last edited by marooned; 07-26-2021 at 05:35 PM.
Fe creatives ”lie” or twist the truth, but that’s not a problem for Ti creatives because we do it too and never take anyone at face value. There’s always an agenda and it’s fine as long as you know what it is. Also even if IEI don’t want to say anything straight out and will endlessly hint and circle around you know how to read between the lines and set traps for them so that they reveal the truth inadvertently. It can be a fun game, as is confusing the Fe creatives by unexpected statements that might or might not be true. Their confusion is highly amusing. Also I think they enjoy their duals (that have good intentions) having the upper hand because it implies they won’t be fooled by others and will be able to protect the Fe creative.
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