What is your view on subtypes?

[Braingel]

I personally favor subtypes, because you can have all the positions of information metabolism aligned in a way, have all the matching Renin dichotomy and cognitive style, and still be by others, perceived in different fashion.

Utilizing my own self to be an exemplar, it is extremely common others at a first initial glance (online, mostly forums, and occasionally in voice chat) type me as an Fe base. I mostly get typed EIE-Ni by others who do not well know me, and IEE-Ne is another popular choice. My Fe is appearing as fourth dimensional to others in a strong fashion that is subconscious.

This can explain through me being the IEI2FE, the most extroverted type of IEI:
My introversion becomes apparent when meeting me in person:
I definitely am not in the ignorance of Fi, nor am I a one dimensional Ti. However, with this subtype in mind, my Fe (and Se) have an extra "oomph" to it (them). Then, I am image triad; the enneagram type four. These two things often make others type me as EIE, IEE, or occasionally, ESE (until others see my Si is completely ignored).

[Tim]

Subtypes seem to be quite valid. I'm consistently tested as SLE-2Ti so that would give me a Ti lead vibe when I write. However, there are some parts of SLE-2Ti I don't relate. I seem quite EIE-ish in Discord Voice Chat. It's almost I'm totally different person in voice chat than in writing. I am very strongly Ti in my writing but I am Fe in voice chat.

I even annoyed an ILI at a game of Geoguessr in a Transcendence Discord Voice Chat because I'm loud especially when I know the location of the place because I've been there.

In other words, I'm SLE who get mistyped as LSI (but too loud and expressive to be a 1D Fe), LxE (but valued systematic logic and making sure it is consistent with the system over facts/data), and EIE (but too insensitive to be one).

In the DCNH system, I think I would be SLE-D and that seems to make sense to me since my Fe is elevated despite being SLE-Ti.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Subtypes seem to be quite valid. I'm consistently tested as SLE-2Ti so that would give me a Ti lead vibe when I write. However, there are some parts of SLE-2Ti I don't relate. I seem quite EIE-ish in Discord Voice Chat. It's almost I'm totally different person in voice chat than in writing. I am very strongly Ti in my writing but I am Fe in voice chat.

I even annoyed an ILI at a game of Geoguessr in a Transcendence Discord Voice Chat because I'm loud and yelling especially when I know the location of the place because I've been there.

In other words, I'm SLE who get mistyped as LSI (but too loud and expressive to be a 1D Fe), LxE (but valued adhering consistently with the system over facts/data), and EIE (but too insensitive to be one).

In the DCNH system, I think I would be SLE-D and that seems to make sense to me since my Fe is elevated despite being SLE-Ti.

https://youtu.be/SL4c9gCRSKY

Vizzini is the archetypal SLE-Ti in my mind. Lol. His opponent being another SLE, though of a less pronounced subtype maybe.

[MissDucki]

I like subtypes, I think they make a difference. I am SEI-Fe either 1 or 2. I have been told I come across either an extrovert or really reserved. I value my internal consistency and pleasure but I am willing to sacrifice it more for the sake of the group unless the sensation for me is too much and I can't. I tend to be attracted to more rational doms/ or irrational-rational subytpes. My Fe isn't a strong as an extrovert and I have an easier time yielding but, all emotional and feelings show on my face and body. I just noticed with an old SEI-Si coworker the difference. I tend to be more expressive and cheery with fluctuating tone in comparison to my SEI-Si coworker who was more chill and had a less fluctuating tone.

[Rebelondeck]

Regression analysis involves the process of specifying the model that provides the best fit to the independent variables of a data set. Variations in behaviour are not as straightforward to fit and interpret as linear relationships, which Socionics and sub-typing seem to propose.

For linear relationships, as you increase an independent variable, dependent variables change by predictable amounts. This relationship holds true regardless of from where the observations are made. However, changes in behaviour can often be associated with environments and observation perspectives.

Sub-typing does nothing more than to increase the number of classifications in order to cover certain anomalies. However, without defining a proper model, this accomplishes nothing. The first ingredient in a rabbit stew is a rabbit.

a.k.a. I/O

[Aquamarine]

I like subtypes, I think they make a difference. I am SEI-Fe either 1 or 2. I have been told I come across either an extrovert or really reserved. I value my internal consistency and pleasure but I am willing to sacrifice it more for the sake of the group unless the sensation for me is too much and I can't. I tend to be attracted to more rational doms/ or irrational-rational subytpes. My Fe isn't a strong as an extrovert and I have an easier time yielding but, all emotional and feelings show on my face and body. I just noticed with an old SEI-Si coworker the difference. I tend to be more expressive and cheery with fluctuating tone in comparison to my SEI-Si coworker who was more chill and had a less fluctuating tone.

I think I'm Si subtype. I don't think there's anybody who would ever think I was an extrovert. Everybody knows me as reserved. My emotions do show on my face, but it's not as obvious to some people who don't know me well. I'm not a very expressive person. I don't really like that people can see my emotions and I also don't really talk about them. Can't really say whether I come across as cheery or not. People are usually trying to get me to liven up and join in the fun sometimes lol

I have a few questions.
What are some examples of you sacrificing for the group?
And are there any other differences you notice between you and your coworker?

[Poptart]

Regression analysis involves the process of specifying the model that provides the best fit to the independent variables of a data set. Variations in behaviour are not as straightforward to fit and interpret as linear relationships, which Socionics and sub-typing seem to propose.

For linear relationships, as you increase an independent variable, dependent variables change by predictable amounts. This relationship holds true regardless of from where the observations are made. However, changes in behaviour can often be associated with environments and observation perspectives.

Sub-typing does nothing more than to increase the number of classifications in order to cover certain anomalies. However, without defining a proper model, this accomplishes nothing. The first ingredient in a rabbit stew is a rabbit.

a.k.a. I/O

I don’t think socionics proposes a linear relationship between type and behavior. I mean, type is a categorical variable for starters…

[Rebelondeck]

I don’t think socionics proposes a linear relationship between type and behavior. I mean, type is a categorical variable for starters…

A categorical variable has no meaning unless there's a defined interaction among all the variables from a system perspective. Output (for example, Fe) by itself as a category has no meaning so a Se-subtype has none either. IEs shouldn't be treated as distinct objects that are simply mixed together; a mixture of these ingredients produces this personality sounds like linear thinking to me.

a.k.a. I/O

[Static]

I like subtypes, I think they make a difference. I am SEI-Fe either 1 or 2. I have been told I come across either an extrovert or really reserved. I value my internal consistency and pleasure but I am willing to sacrifice it more for the sake of the group unless the sensation for me is too much and I can't. I tend to be attracted to more rational doms/ or irrational-rational subytpes. My Fe isn't a strong as an extrovert and I have an easier time yielding but, all emotional and feelings show on my face and body. I just noticed with an old SEI-Si coworker the difference. I tend to be more expressive and cheery with fluctuating tone in comparison to my SEI-Si coworker who was more chill and had a less fluctuating tone.

this is making me doubt my Fe subtype. I typed as it because I’m in my feelings all the time and I can seem sometimes extroverted but that’s only online not in person.

[rose]

I think it's useful to mark the differences between people in certain contexts.
There's people I'd use the subtypes system mentioned in this thread, while for others I'd go for DCNH. I'm not sure why, it simply makes more sense.
Those are just things to help show nuances for me.
And I think a subtype can change, or even be situational.

[Poptart]

A categorical variable has no meaning unless there's a defined interaction among all the variables from a system perspective. Output (for example, Fe) by itself as a category has no meaning so a Se-subtype has none either. IEs shouldn't be treated as distinct objects that are simply mixed together; a mixture of these ingredients produces this personality sounds like linear thinking to me.

a.k.a. I/O

It sounds like linear thinking or a linear model?

The closest thing to a linear model in socionics would be the relationship between strength of information processing and dimensionality (and btw I problems with this aspect of socionics because I think it’s a massive oversimplification of the idea which often gets misapplied).

[MidnightWilderness]

this is making me doubt my Fe subtype. I typed as it because I’m in my feelings all the time and I can seem sometimes extroverted but that’s only online not in person.

Same here. I thought I was 3-Fe but honestly my Fe pales in comparison to MissDucki's Fe. When I reflect back on my Fe usage throughout my life, I find it absolutely hilarious that I thought I was the strongest Fe subtype there was. Everyone I know would probably not put me as Fe sub either, based off of their descriptions of my emotional expression. I think 0 subtype makes far more sense for me (although I know some will disagree). The inert subtype is unlikely because I do not show as much base as the inert, hence the type confusion here.

The other thing to think about is that withdrawn enneagrams are naturally more withdrawn and introverted even if they are extroverted subtypes. Seeing as I am 4 and the other two people who feel more introverted here are 9s, then that may distort the extroverted functions more. I think all Feelers are naturally in touch with their feelings, but the ones with extreme subtypes of functions that are not Fe or Fi, or ones with certain enneagram types (like 5) may feel less connected to their feelings than the typical feeling type. They might be more likely to be mistyped or mistype themselves as logical types.

There are pretty much two subtype systems in Socionics, DCNH and inert/contact subtypes. I still haven't been able to really accept DCNH, but inert/contact subtypes make sense to me. Subtypes are observable, but I think people often overuse them and mistype themselves as having subtypes when they don't. Most people seem to either not have subtypes or have weak subtypes as extreme subtypes seem to be uncommon. Sometimes subtypes are used justifications for mistypes, which is where subtypes can become a hindrance to Socionics, but for the most part, subtypes explain observable phenomenon and differences in preferences and usage of functions between people of the same type. Personally I believe subtype theory needs more development and time before it becomes more useful, and that subtypes should be discussed more.

I think Socionics basically proposes a linear relationship between type and cognition, not that you all have to act 100% stereotypically like your type, but that the overall behavior and choices fit a certain pattern of cognition, which forms the type. Observable patterns of cognition and behavior form types and subtypes, and observations are made all the time to fit into certain boxes or form new boxes or to restructure old boxes into new boxes. You use your functions and life experiences and interests to form a personality which is why not everyone of the same type acts like a clone of each other. Cognition is only one part of personality.

[MissDucki]

I think I'm Si subtype. I don't think there's anybody who would ever think I was an extrovert. Everybody knows me as reserved. My emotions do show on my face, but it's not as obvious to some people who don't know me well. I'm not a very expressive person. I don't really like that people can see my emotions and I also don't really talk about them. Can't really say whether I come across as cheery or not. People are usually trying to get me to liven up and join in the fun sometimes lol

I have a few questions.
What are some examples of you sacrificing for the group?
And are there any other differences you notice between you and your coworker?

In the sense, I will sacrifice my own personal sensations for the other person to feel okay or to not tip the emotional atmosphere. Like even if a sensations makes me uncomfortable, like moving my ass more even though I know I cant last very long, for the sake of keeping the peace. I can't do it forever and I do know my limits but I will use emotion sometimes to overcome uncomfortable sensations to keep peace or feel safe. Like, the other day, my mom ordered sushi and it wasn't the best but she was upset that they got it wrong. I was getting full and there was about 6 sushi rolls left. I really didn't want to eat them but I knew I could eat two more if I needed too. It would be comfortable but doable because I felt bad and my mom was upset that they got the order wrong and paid a lot. I shoved one in my mouth and was about too shove the other but my mom told me not to hurt myself trying to finish the food. So i just ate the one. I knew I couldn't finish the 6 but I would force myself too eat two more if I had too. Feelings over sensations to keep sensational emotional peace if I needed too. The crap part if you will see me strain though lol.

Hmmm. She doesn't use her body as much to explain things with passion as I do. Like my family has mentioned that I use my whole body when I am passionate about something. She seems to be more steady in energy while I have more short busts and cool downs. She is more willing to stick things out then I am in certain aspects (she lasted longer at work then me but left a month after me). Much more of control of herself then me sometimes. Si types always come across very 'even' to me while I tend to fluctuate a bit more.

[MissDucki]

this is making me doubt my Fe subtype. I typed as it because I’m in my feelings all the time and I can seem sometimes extroverted but that’s only online not in person.

Edit: LOL SORRY! I thought I misread your TIM! Forgive ME! I got you mixed up with someone else! Just let me go wallow in my corner of shame right now......

Everyone expresses Fe differently. I am more on the neurotic side so it comes out a lot more is all.

[rose]

In the sense, I will sacrifice my own personal sensations for the other person to feel okay or to not tip the emotional atmosphere. Like even if a sensations makes me uncomfortable, like moving my ass more even though I know I can last very long, for the sake of keeping the peace. I can't do it forever and I do know my limits but I will use emotion sometimes to overcome uncomfortable sensations to keep peace or feel safe. Like, the other day, my mom ordered sushi and it wasn't the best but she was upset that they got it wrong. I was getting full and there was about 6 sushi rolls left. I really didn't want to eat them but I knew I could eat two more if I needed too. It would be comfortable but doable because I felt bad and my mom was upset that they got the order wrong and paid a lot. I shoved one in my mouth and was about too shove the other but my mom told me not to hurt myself trying to finish the food. So i just ate the one. I knew I couldn't finish the 6 but I would force myself too eat two more if I had too. Feelings over sensations to keep sensational emotional peace if I needed too. The crap part if you will see me strain though lol.

Hmmm. She doesn't use her body as much to explain things with passion as I do. Like my family has mentioned that I use my whole body when I am passionate about something. She seems to be more steady in energy while I have more short busts and cool downs. She is more willing to stick things out then I am in certain aspects (she lasted longer at work then me but left a month after me). Much more of control of herself then me sometimes. Si types always come across very 'even' to me while I tend to fluctuate a bit more.

This is really interesting. It gives me a good insight into stuff I don't understand. I like your openess, it's helpful.
I see some Ep-ness in you tbf, I wonder where it comes from. I think you mentioned an ILE close to you? Oh, I hope I'm not mixing you with someone else, lol.
I'm not trying to imply you're not SEI, just Ep-ish SEI.

[MissDucki]

This is really interesting. It gives me a good insight into stuff I don't understand. I like your openess, it's helpful.
I see some Ep-ness in you tbf, I wonder where it comes from. I think you mentioned an ILE close to you? Oh, I hope I'm not mixing you with someone else, lol.
I'm not trying to imply you're not SEI, just Ep-ish SEI.

No problem! I like to talk and if you give me the chance and ask a question, I will always happily go in depth the best way I can explain it I just need a starting point and then go from there.
I am not close to any ILE right now. My uncle is one but not too close to him. I dated one but that's in the past. Right now I am just chilling being my lonesome SEI self I do think I have an ILE coworker at work so I am kinda trying to see how things will play out friendship wise. Lol I think I may come across Ep is on here cause my siblings are Ep and I have learned to express a more adventurous side even though I am scared shitless. I gotta taste of Ne and it can be fun to explore at times when I feel in a more mentally good state. I still would rather be curled up in my room in the dark in my bed

[DEAD]

The way I see a subtype is like this:

You have your base, let's say Se base, and you are an SLE, for example. This is the base coat, let's make it yellow. The page is yellow.

You then have your creative function, Ti, so let's make it blue. If you are a Ti subtype, you have some blue over the canvas and it begins to make it green. And the stronger your Ti subtype is, the more green the canvas becomes.

And the Se subtype has a red colour, so the more you mix the Se subtype, the more orange it becomes.

To me, a subtype produces two different variants from the same base i.e. a greenier canvas and an organier canvas.

I think that it can definitely bring clarity to the situation, in regards as to why people from the same sociotype act differently, but I also think that in some cases that if the person is too far removed from said Sociotype and said subtypes, let's say for arguments sake, they are an SLE-Se-3 and the canvas is literally orange, and the base canvas of SEE is orange, they might want to reconsider things. They may be mistyped.

[rose]

No problem! I like to talk and if you give me the chance and ask a question, I will always happily go in depth the best way I can explain it I just need a starting point and then go from there.
I am not close to any ILE right now. My uncle is one but not too close to him. I dated one but that's in the past. Right now I am just chilling being my lonesome SEI self I do think I have an ILE coworker at work so I am kinda trying to see how things will play out friendship wise. Lol I think I may come across Ep is on here cause my siblings are Ep and I have learned to express a more adventurous side even though I am scared shitless. I gotta taste of Ne and it can be fun to explore at times when I feel in a more mentally good state. I still would rather be curled up in my room in the dark in my bed

Interesting. I guess all those Ep did influence you. I think it makes it easier for me to understand you.
I can relate to acting a way while feeling another inwardly, lol. Sadly, I'm not sure what question to ask to keep you talking. My brain ain't cooperating, the little rascal, lol.
It's a topic I find vastly interesting tho.
I do agree to staying in my room in the dark(with candles) makes a wonderful evening.

[Tallmo]

I always used DCNH, it's very interesting to observe. I don't understand the two subtype system. DCNH is useful to learn, not just as a subtype system but in order to understand people better and predict compatibility.

[PinKDiGiT18]

I can break up and predict my quality of interaction with every type into subtype. Talking, down to the 1-3 strength dichotomy. Base subtypes are more like their kindreds and creatives more like their lookalike partners. Thus, it can even affect how people get along with duals of different subtypes.

My uncle is LSE-3Te sp/so and I cannot stand him. He is the reason I began taking subtypes so seriously, because he is definitely LSE - controlling, mocks Se while being quite competent in it, is Te all day but also holds his own with Ti. Often, we could read each other’s motivations quite well. But I, for the life of me, could not bring myself to enjoy being around him, which of course made me and the family assume he was my conflictor (which his sister, an SLE, is to me).

Then I started to observe this with others. My ILI-Te mom despised my SEE-3Se ex-boyfriend. My IEE-Fi friend had a hard time settling down around my SLI-Si friend. The natural conclusion would be that each of these alleged dual pairs were actually conflictors - but then, I encountered LSE-Si for the first time, along with less-pronounced Te-LSEs, and realized the sociotype is indubitably my dual. Interaction with them was seamless. I almost resented how easy it was for these individuals to understand my aims. And I watched my mom encounter SEEs with stronger Fi, and her usually reserved self would actively seek them out as I’ve never seen her do with others.

Has considerable weight when it comes to intertype relations in general. I think subtype + instinct can greatly affect them.

[MidnightWilderness]

Yeah I would say two people of the opposite function in strengths would have a harder time getting along. I wonder exactly where to draw the line in terms of function strength...

Maybe extremes wouldn't get along, like ILI-3Ni and SEE-3Fi would have a harder time together, and maybe also ILI-2Ni and SEE-2Fi, but I think ILI-1Ni and SEE-1Fi would have a better relationship. ILI no subtype and SEE-3Fi should theoretically still like each other.

[Rebelondeck]

It sounds like linear thinking or a linear model?

The closest thing to a linear model in socionics would be the relationship between strength of information processing and dimensionality (and btw I problems with this aspect of socionics because I think it’s a massive oversimplification of the idea which often gets misapplied).

I don't know why I threw in the word "thinking"; it must have been a slip on my part. Socionics models including sub-typing seem to be nothing more than redefinitions of the classifications, which is a bottom-up perspective - certainly not a top-down design.

a.k.a. I/O

[Aquamarine]

In the sense, I will sacrifice my own personal sensations for the other person to feel okay or to not tip the emotional atmosphere. Like even if a sensations makes me uncomfortable, like moving my ass more even though I know I cant last very long, for the sake of keeping the peace. I can't do it forever and I do know my limits but I will use emotion sometimes to overcome uncomfortable sensations to keep peace or feel safe. Like, the other day, my mom ordered sushi and it wasn't the best but she was upset that they got it wrong. I was getting full and there was about 6 sushi rolls left. I really didn't want to eat them but I knew I could eat two more if I needed too. It would be comfortable but doable because I felt bad and my mom was upset that they got the order wrong and paid a lot. I shoved one in my mouth and was about too shove the other but my mom told me not to hurt myself trying to finish the food. So i just ate the one. I knew I couldn't finish the 6 but I would force myself too eat two more if I had too. Feelings over sensations to keep sensational emotional peace if I needed too. The crap part if you will see me strain though lol.

Hmmm. She doesn't use her body as much to explain things with passion as I do. Like my family has mentioned that I use my whole body when I am passionate about something. She seems to be more steady in energy while I have more short busts and cool downs. She is more willing to stick things out then I am in certain aspects (she lasted longer at work then me but left a month after me). Much more of control of herself then me sometimes. Si types always come across very 'even' to me while I tend to fluctuate a bit more.

I still don't know which one I am but that's okay. Thanks for your answer. I think it all just comes down to me being more withdrawn than you are about certain things.

[Braingel]

Subtypes seem to be quite valid. I'm consistently tested as SLE-2Ti so that would give me a Ti lead vibe when I write. However, there are some parts of SLE-2Ti I don't relate. I seem quite EIE-ish in Discord Voice Chat. It's almost I'm totally different person in voice chat than in writing. I am very strongly Ti in my writing but I am Fe in voice chat.

I even annoyed an ILI at a game of Geoguessr in a Transcendence Discord Voice Chat because I'm loud especially when I know the location of the place because I've been there.

In other words, I'm SLE who get mistyped as LSI (but too loud and expressive to be a 1D Fe), LxE (but valued systematic logic and making sure it is consistent with the system over facts/data), and EIE (but too insensitive to be one).

In the DCNH system, I think I would be SLE-D and that seems to make sense to me since my Fe is elevated despite being SLE-Ti.

Me and you would be true duals then, IEI2Fe and SLE2Ti.. IEI mimicking ESE/Fe base, SLE mimicking the LII/Ti base.

[PinKDiGiT18]

Another thing I'm observing about my interaction with different subtypes: LSE-Te and ESE-Fe's Ni PoLR often pisses me off, because theirs manifests as (what seems to me) impulsive, sometimes disruptive behavior. Both EII-Fi and LII-Ti are very patient with this, and silently make arrangements to protect them from the consequences of these decisions, without bringing them to their attention.

I am not so subtle. The more overt usage of their Se demonstrative prompts me to point out the Ni incongruences of their actions and they react disdainfully. LSE-Si and ESE-Si have a gentleness and innocence about their Ni PoLR that makes me want to protect them - and it feels completely natural to do this. Often, I do not feel that same protectiveness over base-subtype Ni PoLRs because they are more likely to disregard my demonstrative warnings. They seem to think I do the same with their Se incentives - and so mutual antipathies arise.

[AWellArmedCat]

I've never seen this chart before. It's rather interesting. For subtyping I've always just looked at how much people employ their creative function and called it a day, but this is kinda cool. The only qualm I have is that this doesn't seem to capture my own personality very well unless this system allows for situational adoption of the four subtypes. Depending on the environment or what I'm responding to I can either gush Fe to the point of other people finding it off-putting, or I can come across as overly clinical in my use of Ti. I'm not sure what Ti being "drained" is supposed to mean in practice, but it doesn't sound right to me at this point. If you could either explain that or provide links to explanations of this system that would be very helpful. I believe my Fe and Ti may alternate in this way because I grew up in a very alpha family which really didn't value my perceiving elements, but really encouraged both Fe and Ti. Basically I think I'm a sort of alphized IEI

[roger557]

Not a good theory op.

[Beautiful sky]

There are as many subtypes as there are human beings