I was asking @Averroes
Basically yeah. I think most people feel the urge to stray after a while but women have much more opportunities to act on it and can easily link up with the most attractive men in their area thanks to apps like tinder. Most men can't get casual sex and are better at contenting themselves with the same partner for decades
I'm not any more of an expert on the whole thing than anybody else, but it's hard to wrap my head around these charges I see leveled at women prioritizing casual sex over monogamy. I could probably put together an essay about how much women love the tinder lifestyle based on the narrative I've picked up online, but it would be impossible to convince myself. I would guess the accusations contain some level of irritation about females having standards that they can't help, combined with genuine emotional detritus about men being cheated on that got dragged in
I don't know if it's just by coincidence, or whether the observation is itself specious, but I've noticed that a lot of MGTOW are Black. I can't provide details because I don't belong to that community, but I get the impression that relations between Black men and women aren't the best. There are a lot of Black single moms, for instance, and, while there are probably exceptions to the rule, single moms aren't exactly men's first choice when it comes to dating -- sorry if that's politically incorrect.
At the same time, divorce rates are the lowest among the upper classes, while divorce rates are highest among the lower classes (significantly so). By extension, the exact same thing is true of single parenthood. [source] There may be an important socioeconomic angle to all of this.
Last edited by xerx; 05-25-2021 at 05:59 AM. Reason: reword
I don't think that there's much "reason" for becoming MGTOW, just as there's not much reason for becoming conspiracy theorists. They could simply be irrational people latching onto irrational beliefs. They could simply be unhappy with their lives, and hence they latch onto hopes of a magical solution that will solve all of their problems. Still, their attempts at a solution is an irrational one. It doesn't make sense, if you think about it a little bit.
You may become MGTOW, or you may not. You may get in and get out of it. I don't think there's much rhyme or reason as to why. It may be by pure chance that you've searched for something online and stumbled upon an MGTOW place. You may stumble upon a conspiracy theory by pure chance, and you may start to believe in that.
So how do you cure a conspiracy theorist? Well what they need is an alternative.
Even if we grant that MGTOW are recycled misogynists and male supremacists, it's not a necessary logical consequence that they'd "go their own way" as a result.
I just came across this Economist article, which talks about the rise in the number of individuals cutting family ties — something that is historically unprecedented. The article implicates the rise in individualism as the primary cause, now that people are less patient in dealing with perceived impediments to their happiness. Self-help literature and internet message boards are amplifying this by encouraging questioners to cut ties with problematic family members.
I believe that MGTOW is either directly part of this trend or a reaction it.
Errr, I gotta tap a new sign of mine now. Attachment Issues. You've got very broken people who don't even realize that they are or even know how and why they could possibly be broken asking each other for "help" and thinking that they'll actually get it when what they'll actually get is the exact opposite. For instance, most "MGTOW" people's advice amounts to advising broken men to embrace and amplify the behaviors that are the result of their attachment issues. The exact opposite of what they really ought to be doing!
MGTOW, Feminism, PUA, Atheism, the list goes on and on but it all has a single root, Attachment issues. It really all started in the 60's, though the foundations for that were forged in Weimar. I'm a bit spent at the moment so I cannot go into further detail but if anyone wants me to when I've got the gas to spare ask and ye shall receive.
To put it bluntly: We are all very broken people living in a world that was broken by intention of our "rulers" for very dark yet logical reasons. Another harsh truth: Once you fully get what those attachment issues mean and result in. You'll feel quite bad for "hating" the people you did/do right now. Just warning ya.
It could simply be a result of there being less men scolding men with shitty behaviors. These men idolize "father figures" and "manly men", but if they were caught dead by them whining about how they don't want to date or get married because "women are evil" or something, then they'd be taught to man up and have some respect and manners.
It could be "First they came for the Jews..." kind of thing. If you don't defend women from unjust attacks, then you could be their next target.
To me, these guys are just "weak men" that can't go up against the people that are really hurting them... the "alpha males". They know that they can't compete against them, so they attack women instead.
I agree with this part. The old social contract was torn apart during the 1960's, and it has been under perpetual renegotiation since then, with neither side willing to budge. Social opinions that are intermixed with personal feelings, like anything related to religion, or abortion, or feminism, are subjective and impossible to prove in any satisfying, scientific way, meaning that they can never be convincingly conveyed to the other side. With both sides so deeply entrenched, it becomes a race to shout the loudest, and to gain control over television, the education system, and social media.
But "manning up" is specifically what they resent doing. They literally believe that women are biologically-wired to financially exploit "provider males" while fawning over "alpha males", and that accepting responsibility means playing into that. They believe that all societies are built to cater to women, with "beta males" being the workhorses, and that traditional conservatism is simply another vector for women to assert control over men. I don't think that they're going to be swayed by a paternalistic authority to accept traditional responsibilities. They point to divorce statistics (i.e. that women initiate 70% of divorces) to make the case that women are hypergamous.
I reeeally don't care about other people's lifestyles and don't normally care about this stuff, but am forced to contend with it, because Japan, which is good at exporting its culture, is experiencing an accelerated version of this phenomenon. Significant numbers of young men are opting out of traditional obligations, like work and marriage, with consequences for Japan's economy and demographics.
On earlier posts, you said this kind of movement is a result of women getting more financial power, becoming more educated, succesful, etc. I think you are right. However, this conflicts with men feeling exploited by women. Because in a way this movement exists since women started to get financial power, so they don't have to rely on men, however, men complain about being exploited in this sense. It seems like they are not aware of what they are doing and why they are doing it.
I know you said that women still tend to want who are more sucessful, educated etc. I also agree, ofcourse not all women are like that but there is a tendency. However, this is the result of the past and there are other reflections of past that puts women in the position where they feel exploited. For example, eventhough women and men have equal working conditions, women have tendency to take care of the chores while men may feel free to not contribute. It is again more expected for a women to drop or change her career for the sake of men. Women have given the role of a support and now even that they have equal conditions, there is also this kind of tendency. That's why, I have said men or women who think they have been dealt a bad hand due to their own gender cannot grasp the perspective of opposite gender.
This shift started a few centuries ago, hence I think people will find the right equilibrium in time. Since women also have equal right, people can choose the roles who fit them more rather than feeling obliged to wear a gender role imposed by society. I am glad that I don't have to play joan of arc. Since roles are changing, there are actually men who exploit women for money and some men now feel the imposition of adapting. Things are changing for the better and the worse.
There is a risk using the word equality since noone is equal, yes. However, that being said, there are also different kind of men and women of out there. So why men need to understand that they are equal with other men when they are different than each other.
Gender is only one category, there are also other categories which can form differences and similarities. Some women don't like to depend on their partner as a provider, this wouldn't change if they were a straight man or lesbian. So now these women need to understand the ways in which they are different than other women. Some men may want the assurance of a solid provider.
Society also frowns upon a woman who can't play nice-adapting-supporting role.
Why not looking for your own self-interest only or why not looking for interest of all? This kind of uniting against other gender only make people lose instead of benefiting them.
Society also frowns upon a woman who can't play nice-adapting-supporting role.
I don't see this at all. Society says how cool it is for women to be strong & independent all the time, it's in the media everywhere. Every other show on TV is about strong female leaders and not women who are too nicey-nice or adaptive & cooperative. It's cool for women to be both strong & independent and be more of a nice-adapating-supporting- it's still considered much more cooler if a guy is independent alpha male. Well I guess to be fair... in America it's like this obsession with being a type-A doucebag no matter your gender, I suppose.
Well the sexual ideal is really some like rough dominant animal that turns into a nicer family guy via a woman's softer touch. ((without losing his ability to dominate her sexuality obviously)) Or he's already that way naturally, kinda like my hot str8 male neighbor - but then there is no appealing challenge for the woman so that might be less desirable objectively in some circumstances. But it ain't hard for men like that to get a date subjectively. I'm not sure challenge is the best word- it's just people tend to be drawn into battles that they are confident they can win using their natural strengths.
It's not very PC to say- but sex *is* instrincally tied into darker and twisted things like murder. That's part of why serial killers of a certain orientation always end up killing the gender they are sexually attracted to. Realistically, I'm not going to fear breeders much - I need to be wary of other ******s. A "Beta Male" that goes into a relationship with a woman seems to be ignoring this shadow-dynamic in order to just be nice with somebody but it rarely ever works erotically... Like I said before it only seems to work with women who are kind of dykey themselves or have strong 4D Se where they might not mind too much if a man had some beta-y traits - but even these women will want males to 'be a man' in many ways because well, duh- it sounds crude but the dick needs to fuck the pussy- the pussy can't really fuck the dick, so of course naturally the onus is on the man to be confident and 'just do it' or whatever.
Of course you need other stuff in a relationship but if these ancient demonic things aren't going on subconsciously there will be no fire to sit by in the first place, as it were.
Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 05-30-2021 at 10:32 PM.
Media, especially movies and tv series support strong-independent women type, there is a trending genre based on this. There is also a trending genre which remain trending for a long time and that is where beta/gamma male somehow gains power. In these both genres, everyone sits tight and waits for the cathartic moments when they gain power and independence. Because it generally doesn't happen in real life, it doesn't reflect the current situation, it is only a result of a current movement which hasn't realised its roots into reality. They are like story lines when a poor guy/girl gets very rich, in reality that is something not all but a few can do, so media says don't whine or fight, just keeps your hopes up! Generally men don't move or drop their career for the sake of women's career and when they do, society don't applause either of them. Dominant or leader females seem scary rather than appealing in the eyes of men.
We are all human, men also want to be wanted, desired. Some wants to be an object of desire rather than desiring other person. It is all about nature of that person. Beta male is beta male for a reason, it suits them better, it is in their nature. Two alphas just would clash with each other in relationship. Sex and relationship doesn't have to have same dynamics, someone who is very submissive can be dominant or vice versa. Some men also want to be submissive in bed, so gender roles can shadow their desire. About dick-pussy power dynamic, a very dominant women said once: pussy can fuck all the time, dick cannot.
Yeah for me personally when I think of the mgtow stuff I picture more of a white nerdy beta male engineer type that is kind of dissatisfied but not raging insecure about it or anything. ((even though I think there are some people who probably picture it being that way because they like the idea of a strong capable woman making some insecure misogyinstic loser feel bad.)) Then again the part that confuses me a bit is going your own way vs putting a label on it and having it as your identity or something.Beta male is beta male for a reason, it suits them better, it is in their nature.
They are rational and cool about it even- but that is also probably something that perhaps add to their 'boring' appeal and lack of sexual interest for others.
So... why do they accept it if Jordan Peterson tells them to "clean up their room"? Weren't you also saying that lack of father figures were a problem?
I know that they believe in a lot of nonsense, which is no different than believing in conspiracy theories and other nonsense. The fact is that they will come up with any excuse with faulty reasoning to blame women and others. It's no different than blaming Jews for ills of the world, for instance. So why even assume that they have legitimacy in their beliefs? And if their beliefs are illegitimate, then shouldn't their beliefs be rejected?
So I tend to think that the problem is whether the culture accepts them, or not. In certain cultures racism is accepted, in certain others, not. It used to be that the culture didn't accept men like these, but now people are more "accepting". We are in a danger of accepting dangerous nonsense if we tolerate the intolerant. And let's not kid ourselves around here, MGTOW is a dangerous, far-right terrorist belief that has managed to turn some people into mass-murderers.
I tend to think that this sort of thing is probably highly influenced by certain Japanese subculture, but the vast majority of women in Japan are far from financially independent, and the gender wage-gap is among the highest in developed countries. So it can't really be it that the reason is because women are becoming more financially independent. More educated and becoming socially independent, possibly. But the influence of feminism is still minimal.
It's probably because most men otherwise have no other positive qualities, such as being "nice".
The MGTOW movement probably has a fantasy that if they "look out for male interests", then they will reap the rewards. Such as, being "rewarded" with women. If they believe that women are property, then that would be their logical conclusion. But the fact is that most "alpha males" that they worship and rely on, probably don't give a shit about them, especially if they're self-interested. The alpha males could only "reward" them if they are useful to them. So it's also the ideology of the alpha males that men ought to be "providers".
Men attracted to JP are men who want a father figure telling them what to do and helping them sort out their lives, which generally aren't in good working order.
I'll grant that if you grant the same is true of feminism. Next we can make a thread discussing how we can rid the world of both feminism and MGTOW.I know that they believe in a lot of nonsense, which is no different than believing in conspiracy theories and other nonsense. The fact is that they will come up with any excuse with faulty reasoning to blame women and others. It's no different than blaming Jews for ills of the world, for instance. So why even assume that they have legitimacy in their beliefs? And if their beliefs are illegitimate, then shouldn't their beliefs be rejected?
So I tend to think that the problem is whether the culture accepts them, or not. In certain cultures racism is accepted, in certain others, not. It used to be that the culture didn't accept men like these, but now people are more "accepting". We are in a danger of accepting dangerous nonsense if we tolerate the intolerant. And let's not kid ourselves around here, MGTOW is a dangerous, far-right terrorist belief that has managed to turn some people into mass-murderers.
The "gender wage gap" is a myth constructed by comparing women's earnings to the top percentage of men's earnings. Yes, a minority of men make far more money than other men and women. This seems to be a big problem for feminists, but I never see feminists complain that the majority of homeless people or construction workers or sanitation workers are male.I tend to think that this sort of thing is probably highly influenced by certain Japanese subculture, but the vast majority of women in Japan are far from financially independent, and the gender wage-gap is among the highest in developed countries. So it can't really be it that the reason is because women are becoming more financially independent. More educated and becoming socially independent, possibly. But the influence of feminism is still minimal.
I don't have any particular problem with men who aren't interested in chasing women, but I am concerned by this mindset. What do you mean you don't "deserve" to date people? Does anyone? No matter what you've done in the past, it doesn't mean you don't have a right to pursue your interests. If you're interested in girls, you should go for them! Life is there for living, and you should try to pursue any interests you have. If girls distract you from doing other things, that's fine, but chasing girls is a whole lot better than doing nothing at all or dicking around on the16types.info.
Well that's not what you said in the post at all, but the point was about how you said about how the culture harshly frowns upon a man who can't play the stoic provider-warrior role, than a woman who is the same. Of course that there are things like unfair gender stereotyping. But what other qualities does a typical man have? Does the man work on having "likeable" qualities? Is he at peace with others?
I'm not saying that you're like that personally, but you've gave an insight to the MGTOW mindset. You said "It's nothing personal, it's rational self-interest."
If these men are self-interested, and if they only want to look out for their own kind's interests, then the logical conclusion would be to screw over anyone who are not them. That's why they're even willing to kill to "get the women". This is why MGTOW is such a dangerous, terrorist ideology.
Things like capitalism praises "rational self-interest", but that only works within the confines of laws and morality. And laws and morality are designed to be fair, if not altruistic. These MGTOW people don't want to work within them, as they're willing to ignore female self-determination and hence human rights if they believe that the society ought to "provide" women for them. Or if they even believe that the society is somehow unfair and works against these men on dating and marrying women.
Those men aren't MGTOW.
Although the internet obviously acts as a radicalizing force, I believe that the roots go deeper than addiction to internet echo-chambers. In part, there's a growing feeling of social alienation, in that people are less patient with things that cause impediments to their happiness, making it easier to justify dropping out of society.I know that they believe in a lot of nonsense, which is no different than believing in conspiracy theories and other nonsense. The fact is that they will come up with any excuse with faulty reasoning to blame women and others. It's no different than blaming Jews for ills of the world, for instance. So why even assume that they have legitimacy in their beliefs? And if their beliefs are illegitimate, then shouldn't their beliefs be rejected?
So I tend to think that the problem is whether the culture accepts them, or not. In certain cultures racism is accepted, in certain others, not. It used to be that the culture didn't accept men like these, but now people are more "accepting". We are in a danger of accepting dangerous nonsense if we tolerate the intolerant. And let's not kid ourselves around here, MGTOW is a dangerous, far-right terrorist belief that has managed to turn some people into mass-murderers.
Incidentally, the fickleness of modern people extends to their behaviour in marriage. MGTOW aren't wrong to point out the high divorce rate, and that marriage is a major risk today. Putting aside abusive and loveless marriages, if women are leaving relationships, one possible cause is FOMO (the fear of missing out on other possibilities). People are bombarded with messages that train them to want excitement and immediate gratification, whereas long-lasting relationships require effort, even drudgery. Under these circumstances, there is higher demand for partners to be be better educated / more successful / more interesting.
Are women, therefore, leaving relationships due to their rapacious, hypergamous nature? I prefer to believe that, given equal opportunities and incentives, men and women have similar-ish rates of hypergamy — everyone knows, for instance, the trope of the narcissistic man who trades his homely wife for a girl with bigger tits — and that modern men and women are the same in this respect.
The growing education and employment divide is a more Western phenomenon. In Japan, the issue is precarious employment due to a flagging economy, whereas Japanese women are taught to expect financially stable husbands (as far as I've read, I don't actually live there). The mechanisms are different, but the result is the same, which is that men can't meet women's standards.I tend to think that this sort of thing is probably highly influenced by certain Japanese subculture, but the vast majority of women in Japan are far from financially independent, and the gender wage-gap is among the highest in developed countries. So it can't really be it that the reason is because women are becoming more financially independent. More educated and becoming socially independent, possibly. But the influence of feminism is still minimal.
Japan also has some of the world's most sophisticated porn, which makes it easier to live a solitary life without a mate. Given the success of Japanese cultural exports, this is likely in our future as well.
Perhaps they're more "Red Pill" than MGTOW, but there's some overlap.
High divorce rate is probably the result of women being more socially and financially independent. I'd say that's a better alternative than staying in marriages due to being dependent.
I would say that women are slightly more monogamous than men on average. Women, for better or worse, tend to become more dependent on "love", as far as the feelings are concerned. While it's true that some women might become tempted when someone "better" comes along and they may be able to "move on" quicker than men on average, however I would think that there's not much difference in gender. It would be about what kind of morality the person possesses. It would be ridiculous to assume that women have no morals at all in that regard.
How can't men meet women's standards, when the women in Japan earn significantly less than men? (women earn about 65% of men's salary on average).
If these men are earning significantly more but would rather run off to porn and anime, then what exactly can we expect of these men?
"Sophisticated porn" is only possible by ignoring the standards and rights of women, which are pretty low in Japan. The fact that so many women do porn in Japan is due to women earning so much less and having much less career opportunities. It's the result of financial exploitation of women.
I used to watch a lot of conservative Youtube channels where quite a few of them were MGTOW. I can understand MGTOW. Current societal values are just not conductive to a proper relationship and can make a lot of women just not compatible and unfortunately this incompatibility can be very hard to see until it's far too late and the damage is done. Legal system favoring women in divorce and custody also doesn't help. But I would never be MGTOW despite all that as I do believe good women are still out there in abundance and I simply desire a companion more than I fear making a mistake in marrying a bad person.
Also there's just no denying that there is a cultural war against masculinity going on in the western world, largely in part due to hatred of masculinity and men in general by radical feminism. MGTOW serves a good purpose in bringing this cultural war to light, at least to people open minded enough to listen.
Depends. This used to be the case in the past but now I don't see it- custody courts often get easily manipulated & hoodwinked by a narcissistic charming 'Dark Chad' that's really an emotional abuser. Because a lot of them are "Normies" that get easily fooled by people like that. I've seen them easily manipulate female judges that want to sleep with them. ((btw I'm not saying all or even most women would fall for him or anything okay? I've evolved from being 2015 BnD. But this particular judge sure was fooled.)) I think the CRIMINAL justice system still favors women over males though. Except for Aileen Wuronos, but perhaps as a lesbian she had more of a brain like a straight males anyway.Legal system favoring women in divorce and custody also doesn't help.
This is like the dark side of equality tho. I mean you gotta be careful what you wish for and what you advocate for cuz ppl naturally enjoy the perks and the boons but don't like to deal with the negative side of "equality." So you want to be favored like men are - here you go. But then to be truly fair you have to be willing to be punished like a man as well. Then I think for a lot of people it's like a big yeah, nope. Like mainstream Normie society is paying so much attention to the 'but women earn 70 cents to every dollar a man makes' thing and not very much attention to the 'but if they both do something wrong criminally - the man will probably get the death penalty while she gets life. Or he will get 20 years and she'll get about 8 etc' thing.
I will apply the same thing to myself and gay rights and straight men too btw. Gay men often want to be looked at with the same respect as straight men- but realistically you can't do that styling people's hair and giving them sassy advice over heroically dying in wars for people. Because there's nothing wrong with the former, but the latter just as more serious weight that makes people respect others in a deep Te/Fi way or something. Yet still I prefer gay culture and gay guys even if we don't do this thing as much as str8 males stereotypically. We did it a lot in the ACT UP era- but I think that was more for ourselves rather than 'the world.'
I think I'd respect feminism more if they try to advocate more for female superiority rather then "equality". It's called feminism over humanism after all so maybe pussy up (ha) and act like it. Even if you risk being laughed at more- something about that is more refreshingly honest to me. I kinda wish it was that angle more. Actually I'd be all for that in a sense. In the grand scheme of things- other males have made my life harder than females ever did. Advocating for their superiority rather than equality seems alright - but wanting 'equality' under the guise of really wanting to be the ones that hold the whip isn't honest and it's deceitful & I just don't respect that as much.
Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 06-01-2021 at 01:28 AM.
@woofwoofl: Men going their own way... with each other.
Lolol. Sticky of the year.
Ah I see... so we're supposed to see some sort of legitimacy in an ideology that is literally linked with terrorist acts, online harassments, real-world violence and mass-shootings.
It amazes me how easily some people's cognition can become twisted. The MGTOW people are obviously not right in their heads, they're not "normal" and neither are people who get into them.