Attitudinal Psyche type system

[marooned]

1L - know it all
2E - f*cking troll
3V - wut... I know how to kind of get there but even my navel fluff is more interesting
4F - I come to work butt naked.

steals format but without the humor

1E - my mood determines my reality, i am my feelings, all emotion and intuitive perceptions trump all other perception
2L - i like debating, thinking/analyzing and am flexible with logic, albeit not always well because i'm an ethical type, but my Ti HA will always boost my confidence in the area
3V - will doesn't work well and is confused, but then is touchy about other people trying to impose their will in ways that feel like being made to be a servant, then i can become hostile
4F - feel utterly helpless to manage anything in the material world or my own health/body and am falling into the abyss of this failure

however, F is an area of confusion because for a while i was able to manage it on my own, while i was in college, though it was still being blindly managed... it was in a better balance then because i had complete control of my time. it started falling apart badly after i started trying to conform to work week schedules at draining jobs. the other thing that can always drag it down is my mood - F is sacrificed first if i'm in long term emotional turmoil.

[SGF]

steals format but without the humor

1E - my mood determines my reality, i am my feelings, all emotion and intuitive perceptions trump all other perception
2L - i like debating, thinking/analyzing and am flexible with logic, albeit not always well because i'm an ethical type, but my Ti HA will always boost my confidence in the area
3V - will doesn't work well and is confused, but then is touchy about other people trying to impose their will in ways that feel like being made to be a servant, then i can become hostile
4F - feel utterly helpless to manage anything in the material world or my own health/body and am falling into the abyss of this failure

however, F is an area of confusion because for a while i was able to manage it on my own, while i was in college, though it was still being blindly managed... it was in a better balance then because i had complete control of my time. it started falling apart badly after i started trying to conform to work week schedules at draining jobs. the other thing that can always drag it down is my mood - F is sacrificed first if i'm in long term emotional turmoil.

(me speculating, sue me I'm 2L)

Based on this you'd be ELFV not ELVF.
3 is the sore spot that hurts. Your sore spot seems F. Your V is just like mine ;D, you are 2L 4V like me kek..wtf

4th attitude is unconcerned. More like I'll deal with V when I absolutely have to. You don't deal with F when you have to.. its a sore spot so 3F.

IF it stresses you out that much you'd be cleaning and overcompensating tho.. so its weird you are a mess in this regard. More like you don't care and persist in inactivity, which would be more 4F I guess... then again you'd deal with it when push comes to shove if it was 4th.. I'm thinking there is another reason why it isn't happening.

3F in a nutshell:

The 3F function is formed by placing the physics aspect (F) into the insecure position (3rd). Insecure physics (3F) has an apprehensive and unsure attitude towards all concepts of the physical world. All 3F types are insufficient at being involved in matters relating to the material world. They are mostly anxious about their opinions on tastes, belongings, comforts, aesthetics and practical skills. These types tend to have a shaky and unstable relationship with how they process all things related to the physical reality. They tend to need clarification and feedback from others when engaging in all matters related to physics.

I think this system is pretty much crap but the tests give me VFLE and I guess it fits the best, V and F are most likely in the two first slots and L can't be the in the last slot.

e_e how are you 3L tho? I always saw you confident in your thinking. Thinking is your sore spot like Kyana's? I agree with 4E for you, F imo is 1F.. you are an "owner" like me, go to the gym for the results not the process. "I want that car so I'll just get it." Seems like result F to me. I haven't seen you talk with others about personal health, giving advice, taking feedback, nor home decoration, aesthetics. you want to share your thoughts with me on healthy living and receive feedback? mr "fuck Si" ..2F my ass. Hmm.. maybe FVLE? Kyana is in contrast a VFLE or "fire-starter" <.< srsly wherever she is she starts a "fire".

Still surprised thinking is a sore spot, I mean you don't seem to be like this:

The 3L attitude is formed by combining the logic aspect (L) with the insecure position (3rd). Insecure logic (3L) has an apprehensive and unsure attitude towards all logical concepts. All 3L types are insufficient at being involved in matters relating to the logical realm. They are mostly anxious about their opinions of higher knowledge, political arguments, scientific thought and their own abilities to reason. These types tend to have a shaky and unstable relationship with how they process and logically organize the world around them. They tend to need clarification and feedback from others when engaging in all matters related to logic.

I often found that you don't require clarification and feedback when it comes to logic and you are often dismissive thinking you already understand it better than other people.

1&4 th attitudes are result attitudes, they care about the result so conclusions are drawn fast, the deliberation process is very short with focus on beginning and end
2&3 are process attitudes, there is immersion in the process here, back and forth, constant change, information exchange. 2nd has natural back and forth flow, third has overcompensation for weakness, trying to hide it.

[Northstar]

e_e how are you 3L tho? I always saw you confident in your thinking. Thinking is your sore spot like Kyana's? I agree with 4E for you, F imo is 1F.. you are an "owner" like me, go to the gym for the results not the process. "I want that car so I'll just get it." Seems like result F to me. I haven't seen you talk with others about personal health, giving advice, taking feedback, nor home decoration, aesthetics. you want to share your thoughts with me on healthy living and receive feedback? mr "fuck Si" ..2F my ass. Hmm.. maybe FVLE? Kyana is in contrast a VFLE or "fire-starter" <.< srsly wherever she is she starts a "fire".

Still surprised thinking is a sore spot, I mean you don't seem to be like this:


I often found that you don't require clarification and feedback when it comes to logic and you are often dismissive thinking you already understand it better than other people.

1&4 th attitudes are result attitudes, they care about the result so conclusions are drawn fast, the deliberation process is very short with focus on beginning and end
2&3 are process attitudes, there is immersion in the process here, back and forth, constant change, information exchange. 2nd has natural back and forth flow, third has overcompensation for weakness, trying to hide it.

Yeah, to start with I agree the 1F in FVLE could fit, but the descriptions of 2V and 3L in that type don't work very well for me. Like 2V "they wish for themselves and others to enjoy the journey of life even if it means venturing into the taboo" or 3L "not knowing how to explain the world gives them intense anxiety". However, 2F of wanting to endlessly discuss food or aesthetics isn't really me either, although I can discuss things like workout routines and health without getting bored.

This brings me to the problems I see with this system. It's just too boxed in and lacks nuance. It lumps the information elements together into only four elements that can contain self-contradicting items. It forces always exactly two of these to be result/process, strong/weak and passive/aggressive in a prescripted way. It doesn't make a distinction between strong/weak and valued/unvalued which is very important in my opinion. Take F for example, it contains things that would in socionics be called both Se and Si, but in socionics you're free to be strong in both but only value half of it. For example, I care about aesthetics of cars, buildings, the human body but I don't care nearly as much about things like food, clothing, comfort, home interior even if I have no problems taking care of these things when necessary. When it comes to L and E, there are similar problems. L contains elements of logical thinking but also creativity and intuition. Just because you aren't very interested in long-winded nerdy logical debates, philosophizing, brainstorming creative ideas etc. doesn't mean your logic is "weak". Your intuition could be weak and you might devalue one half of it, but that kind of forces your L to be in position 3/4 and the descriptions make it sound like you have problems with logic and understanding the world.

Really, I could see this system working better for NT and SF types because they have a clear preference of logic/intuition vs all kinds of sensing. Introverted ST types could have low V and get around the problem, but extroverted ST types would likely see themselves have strong V, F and L which isn't possible in this system. Then that easily forces L to be the weakest because it's more like an amalgam of Ti and Ne, while V and F are closer to together containing the essence of Te.

Now, you could say that there's no point mixing socionics into this, it's a different system. But I used the examples above to illustrate the problem that arises when you have only 4 very broad "information elements" and force them into three dichotomies. It's quick and dirty but it also creates endless problems of finding things that don't fit. Socionics uses an extra dichotomy to split the information elements into 8 separate ones and that allows more precise distinctions of strong/weak and valued/unvalued and finally better fitting types despite the number being 16 instead of 24.

However, I could accept the system being all about "attitude" which means it's just a way of sorting how you value these elements related to each other, but then you have to throw the whole strong/weak dichotomy out of the window because it implies raw ability in that element.

[SGF]

Yeah, to start with I agree the 1F in FVLE could fit, but the descriptions of 2V and 3L in that type don't work very well for me. Like 2V "they wish for themselves and others to enjoy the journey of life even if it means venturing into the taboo" or 3L "not knowing how to explain the world gives them intense anxiety". However, 2F of wanting to endlessly discuss food or aesthetics isn't really me either, although I can discuss things like workout routines and health without getting bored.

This brings me to the problems I see with this system. It's just too boxed in and lacks nuance. It lumps the information elements together into only four elements that can contain self-contradicting items. It forces always exactly two of these to be result/process, strong/weak and passive/aggressive in a prescripted way. It doesn't make a distinction between strong/weak and valued/unvalued which is very important in my opinion. Take F for example, it contains things that would in socionics be called both Se and Si, but in socionics you're free to be strong in both but only value half of it. For example, I care about aesthetics of cars, buildings, the human body but I don't care nearly as much about things like food, clothing, comfort, home interior even if I have no problems taking care of these things when necessary. When it comes to L and E, there are similar problems. L contains elements of logical thinking but also creativity and intuition. Just because you aren't very interested in long-winded nerdy logical debates, philosophizing, brainstorming creative ideas etc. doesn't mean your logic is "weak". Your intuition could be weak and you might devalue one half of it, but that kind of forces your L to be in position 3/4 and the descriptions make it sound like you have problems with logic and understanding the world.

Really, I could see this system working better for NT and SF types because they have a clear preference of logic/intuition vs all kinds of sensing. Introverted ST types could have low V and get around the problem, but extroverted ST types would likely see themselves have strong V, F and L which isn't possible in this system. Then that easily forces L to be the weakest because it's more like an amalgam of Ti and Ne, while V and F are closer to together containing the essence of Te.

yeah, this is good criticism imo. Related to this I did open up a thread which explains for example why E and emotions are not Fe or Fi and how to logically separate these things. It can be argued that F is not Se or Si and V is not Se, L is not Ti or Te, since those are IMEs and here we are just talking about general attitudes towards aspects of life.

Good example might be Gitler, who was VELF and EIE, but 1V does not mean he was ever good with Se and 2F while in this case goes hand in hand with lead Fe, it has little to do with it in all actuality. V is more like identity, motivation and drive.

Now, you could say that there's no point mixing socionics into this, it's a different system. But I used the examples above to illustrate the problem that arises when you have only 4 very broad "information elements" and force them into three dichotomies. It's quick and dirty but it also creates endless problems of finding things that don't fit. Socionics uses an extra dichotomy to split the information elements into 8 separate ones and that allows more precise distinctions of strong/weak and valued/unvalued and finally better fitting types despite the number being 16 instead of 24.

However, I could accept the system being all about "attitude" which means it's just a way of sorting how you value these elements related to each other, but then you have to throw the whole strong/weak dichotomy out of the window because it implies raw ability in that element.

Since this is merely about attitudes towards aspects of life the argument is that information elements are entirely different. There are some limitations it seems, example IEI with their Te PolR is probably not going to have Strong F, while Ti mobilizing might mean they are 2L in the end even tho their Ti and Te sucks. Its just the attitude one has towards an aspect.

[Northstar]

Since this is merely about attitudes towards aspects of life the argument is that information elements are entirely different. There are some limitations it seems, example IEI with their Te PolR is probably not going to have Strong F, while Ti mobilizing might mean they are 2L in the end even tho their Ti and Te sucks. Its just the attitude one has towards an aspect.

Exactly, I think where this system (at least this english translation, it would be interesting to see the original material even if through google translate) falls apart. It's okay although a little crude when it describes the attitude to certain aspects of life, but it oversteps its bounds when it tries to apply the strong/weak dichotomy arbitrarily to 2 of its 4 aspects when in reality your strengths, weaknesses and even attitudes are more nuanced than that.

[SGF]

Exactly, I think where this system (at least this english translation, it would be interesting to see the original material even if through google translate) falls apart. It's okay although a little crude when it describes the attitude to certain aspects of life, but it oversteps its bounds when it tries to apply the strong/weak dichotomy arbitrarily to 2 of its 4 aspects when in reality your strengths, weaknesses and even attitudes are more nuanced than that.

still I found it useful in terms of differentiating Fe from 1E tbh, which be4 was a bit confusing. This system however shed some light on why I cave so easily to and avoid or blow up from strong negative emotional expressions of 1E people. aka me being 3E. There seems to be something in the interaction with them that just rubs me the wrong way, they seem selfish, like nails on blackboard to me. I have a definite preference for 2E.

I couldn't explain it with socionics tbh. and kept mistaking 4DFe- for it.

[Aria]

Yeah, to start with I agree the 1F in FVLE could fit, but the descriptions of 2V and 3L in that type don't work very well for me. Like 2V "they wish for themselves and others to enjoy the journey of life even if it means venturing into the taboo" or 3L "not knowing how to explain the world gives them intense anxiety". However, 2F of wanting to endlessly discuss food or aesthetics isn't really me either, although I can discuss things like workout routines and health without getting bored.

This brings me to the problems I see with this system. It's just too boxed in and lacks nuance. It lumps the information elements together into only four elements that can contain self-contradicting items. It forces always exactly two of these to be result/process, strong/weak and passive/aggressive in a prescripted way. It doesn't make a distinction between strong/weak and valued/unvalued which is very important in my opinion. Take F for example, it contains things that would in socionics be called both Se and Si, but in socionics you're free to be strong in both but only value half of it. For example, I care about aesthetics of cars, buildings, the human body but I don't care nearly as much about things like food, clothing, comfort, home interior even if I have no problems taking care of these things when necessary. When it comes to L and E, there are similar problems. L contains elements of logical thinking but also creativity and intuition. Just because you aren't very interested in long-winded nerdy logical debates, philosophizing, brainstorming creative ideas etc. doesn't mean your logic is "weak". Your intuition could be weak and you might devalue one half of it, but that kind of forces your L to be in position 3/4 and the descriptions make it sound like you have problems with logic and understanding the world.

Really, I could see this system working better for NT and SF types because they have a clear preference of logic/intuition vs all kinds of sensing. Introverted ST types could have low V and get around the problem, but extroverted ST types would likely see themselves have strong V, F and L which isn't possible in this system. Then that easily forces L to be the weakest because it's more like an amalgam of Ti and Ne, while V and F are closer to together containing the essence of Te.

Now, you could say that there's no point mixing socionics into this, it's a different system. But I used the examples above to illustrate the problem that arises when you have only 4 very broad "information elements" and force them into three dichotomies. It's quick and dirty but it also creates endless problems of finding things that don't fit. Socionics uses an extra dichotomy to split the information elements into 8 separate ones and that allows more precise distinctions of strong/weak and valued/unvalued and finally better fitting types despite the number being 16 instead of 24.

However, I could accept the system being all about "attitude" which means it's just a way of sorting how you value these elements related to each other, but then you have to throw the whole strong/weak dichotomy out of the window because it implies raw ability in that element.

Yes, I'm finding it hard to narrow down my type for the reasons you mentioned. I agree the descriptions can box you in in a weird way, especially if you are a sociotype that sort of contradicts your AP type. You will read those descriptions and go "what? I don't do this." There's a similar problem with certain enneagram descriptions: focusing on behaviors, which leads to confusion.

The best route, maybe, seems to be sticking to individual descriptions of the Aspects. There are brief and good descriptions on the AP site under "Theory," but more fleshed out versions on the Russian sites.

Also, I could analyze myself into almost any attitude and see myself in so many parts of them. What type does that make me? Lol. Probably one that overthinks beyond the simple answer. I'm all ears if someone wants to weigh in on my type.