https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...willpower.html
happy reading!
Extroverted Sensing (Se) and Willpower
https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...willpower.html
happy reading!
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Very important distinction, good read.
I disagree. Sounds much more like manipulation aka Fe.
Yeah, I agree about the unnecessary girlscout example, sounds like manipulation, doesn't belong there or need more context.
I agree with the article that Se and willpower should not be thought of as substitute terms.
I have been thinking myself if the example should have been in there. There is no rhetorical need for it (from the perspective of generally accepted rethorical rules), but I decided to leave it in there for a reason: I am IEE, and it is socionically typical for an IEE to elaborate on how they arrived at a conclusion, adding such details to the narrative. In a sense, it is a literary appoach to writing theoretical stuff. A thing or two can be learned about the mindset of the IEE, if one pays attention. Socionics teaches us we have a choice: to view things from our own pathetic limited perspective, or put oneself in another person's shoes.Originally Posted by Accipiter
If you ask ten professors in philosophy to explain a single aphorism by Nietzsche, you get ten totally different answers. But if you ask me, I'd say Nietzsche, whatever his level of brilliance, was a megalomaniac, narcissistic EIE, and we should understand his writings as such, and the outcome of our conclusions will be different. Why? Because when I read something, I do not only read what is said, but also contemplate who said it and why it was said, applying all sorts of social sciences, including Socionics, in the process. I do not make the mistake made by ten professors of philosophy.
Thus spoke an IEE.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
I don't think so, when many people on this forum attribute procrastination (even if they don't call it that) habits on weak willpower, and equate that to Se. To make the distinction is important, or people will be seeking for the wrong solutions to their problems.
I'd be happy to kick you in your ILI butt, so you can experience the significance of the difference first hand!
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Information element.
Yeah, I'd wager the girl you mentioned was ESE, not Se valuing. Also, you make it sound as Se is some selfish dominant function wholly and completely. In a sense, it is. But someone who's Se might read this and think, "WTF, I'm not an asshole!" and be subsequently discouraged from typing Se (which is the opposite of what you want, if you want to broaden the definition of it, I presume). Se isn't JUST the assertion of one's own will, on people or on things. It's the knowledge of what you can do to get to a place or state, and it can be applied to anything or anyone, not just yourself. Se doesn't have to be selfish in the way this article makes it sound -- I can and I will protect my own, and also fight for what I believe in. It's not just a singular mindset of wanting to own everything.
Hey, I haven't talked to you much so sorry if it feels like I am calling you out or... something. I am seriously just curious.
What made you think it was implying the person was selfish? I mean I get the context that it was an IEE who wrote it, so there are assumptions there, sure, but... there isn't a morality attached to it, if you take that detail away. Like you said, it can be used in the context of protection and with good intentions.
Recently, I actually got super sensitive to Se being used in the context of Te, at least, as I currently understand it. I was told I had to fill out this form, and there was a lot of verbage on it - under the law, perjury - but as I thought about it for a bit... it was just an administrative thing, and yet, it was definitely "pushing" me to do it, regardless of my own personal thoughts or feelings on the matter. Is it being an asshole? Nah, it's just a piece of paper and a company trying to get something done. It isn't trying to hurt me.
No worries, I'm not offended. Facilitating open discussion, and I love notifications
"Se is basically about the capability to make other people do things. Not necessarily against their will, but still it is about making people do things they didn't plan on doing themselves, out of their own motivation." "...physical and psychological pressure over other people (or over external objects) disregarding their own say in the matter, implying that a conflict will not be avoided in the process, if necessary."
This part is what really bugs me. I'm not saying it's WRONG, I'm just saying that coupled with the very Fe + Se example given, which is biased, along with the vague "I wrote more about Se elsewhere" explanation that Se can be used in both good and bad ways... it rubbed me the wrong way. I think articles claiming to redefine something and teach what that thing is REALLY about should use more than one example, and try to be as unbiased as possible.
OR this is intertype conflict, and as a Se dom I'm being a nitpicky asshole about it, and proving the point entirely, or something
Also -- how is filling out a form and it disregarding your feelings in any way similar to an article describing a function? One is something you are obligated to do because you want to get something out of it. The other is something we're discussing here, and is a lot more interpersonal than a form which applies only to you.
@voider
Yay, notifications!
Didn't notice the vague "I wrote about Se elsewhere" bit. I'll have to look again.
Yes, aware it only applied to me, as only I experienced it, just as any story told from any of our individual points of view including the story in the article. But you're right, it wasn't a great example. Noted.
I feel like I'm the reason this thread got started, so let me make myself clear then, if Se is not will power, then whatever the fuck will power is, I don't got it cuz I'm a lazy fuck. Are you happy?
How are you the reason this thread got started? Can you refer me to the original discussion?
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...talking-action
I like this post. I would say though that when you have a battle of wills, the will in itself becomes important to consider.
"...physical and psychological pressure over other people (or over external objects) disregarding their own say in the matter, implying that a conflict will not be avoided in the process, if necessary." (Stolen from @voider thanks)
This part gets on my nerves because there are other types who do that beside Se, Te and Fe can too*. Fe can be much more subtle and the physical pressure may not be as obvious but it is there. This article also describes my mother's behavior though she's quite a Te poster girl by Jung's description, and because of this kind of article, I have thought she had to be SLE for a good long while even if it seemed off.
I guess it bothers me because it reads like something someone who doesn't value Se would write.
And well, sale technics can be learned and used, they are just a tool, a tool I find disgusting but a tool nontheless.
I don't think Se is much related to willpower, it's more related toward a kind of ease in the world that allows one to get what they set their mind to, whether or not it's a good idea in the long run, which can convey an air of willpower. And Se can get stuck in logistic or unrelatableness therefore be hindered to the point of being seen as weak willed. Each type has its own kind of willpower, some are less visible.
*Don't know if Ne can too, maybe, I don't notice Ne peeps much.
I wouldn't relate willpower to Ni, even just as a term. There's more than socionics that plays in word preference ime.
Though yeah, different types are likely to describe a phenomenon using different words and perspectives that can more or less hint at the type.
Will power is a component of it.
Its not the full story.
In the same way that business is a component of Te.
Or, emotion is a component of ethics.
Or, opportunities is a component of extroverted intution .
This stuff is nuanced, its not 1=1.
I think Ni is the vision, but it's not the force that accomplishes the vision, I think that's Se, which would be more will power. Ni is just the target.
Yeah, I have no idea why some people think Se == "imposing your will" and nothing else
Se is focused on concrete reality. Emphasis is on the concrete attributes of an object/subject and ability to grasp what's tangibly happening in real-time; to distinguish what real and present, but also, what's not there. Few people seem to understand this very simple and obvious notion that what's there is what's there and what's not is not. How it manifests in Se leads as a type is their innate ability to manipulate the material plane, which is often abstractly called "willpower." To me, Se isn't some weird, spiritual, out of body type of thing. I see things the way it is, so I take a less than glamorous view that it is what it is, and I don't look too much into anything. It's because I see the situation for what's happening in real time that I'm able to determine what I can do to make my desires become reality. Non-Se egos view Se as being forceful and domineering, and therefore Se is branded as distasteful, and akin to brute force. They erroneously say it's “pressure,” but Se isn't the pressure to act, Se is the decision to act, and this is heavily dependent upon the information that unfolds in real-time. Tactical. This is the maxim of why Se is associated with reality.
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My Se is like radio station signal that comes in super clearly sometimes and is lost others. When it's 'on' it's very much PERCEPTION, not force. People who don't see as much in that world can be startled by someone who CAN SEE moving adeptly in it. It doesn't mean that person is 'forcing' anyone anymore than another type (say an Fe-ego from the perspective of SLI and ILI types) is forcing in their own area of expert movement. That Fe types move easily in social mood and ritual doesn't mean they are all forcing adherence.
I think it's more about the plane of activity than about a trait like willpower or whatnot, since NF types have willpower when it comes to boosting depressed ppl, etc
Se is irrational, thus it´s amoral. And that´s when it´s considered forceful and domineering, taken to its extremes. You simply "see" someone who is weaker and you can push him around and steal his money. You "see" that your girlfriend is not around and cheat on her. You "see" that your friend is having some difficulties in keeping up during a race and still decide it´s better to let him go and win.
These are real-life examples taken from my life, being EJ-Ni I´ve had many Se dom friends. Which of course often takes a bad rap on forums since its advantages in real life are quite obvious, it´s not like you guys really need a further push
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
When I am walking down the street, I’m very aware of the sizes and speeds of the people around me walking, and of their individual levels of spatial awareness/intelligence based on how they move in accordance to those around them. I generally see people who are smaller but don’t pay attention to larger/faster moving objects as “stupid” or spatially unaware. That’s probably the best example of it in a concrete sense, but this can apply to more abstract social dynamics too.
my SLE friend hated when I touched a tour guide on the shoulder when he said "I'm on fire" and I wanted to joke with him to see if I would get burned. lol
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Functional state F - power sensing
Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=120
Intellectually, state F means the perception of strength-weakness. Thinking in this state is extremely concrete, grounded, objectified. It is necessarily accompanied by muscle sensations. Thinking technology F is most conveniently compared to “probing” or “weighing” an object. F thinking is non-verbal - it doesn't use words. A person who thinks by force sensing lowers his eyes down to the ground. He kind of listens to his body.
In society, a person with a persistent state F claims to be the force center of the group. He interferes in the course of the group's activities when he feels that it is necessary to speed up, slow down events, or even change their direction altogether. F-type as a conductor controls the group with one hand movement, head turn or body position change. But he usually does not seek to stand in front of the group, formally lead it. Therefore, another name for the F-role in society is the informal, or shadow leader.
Psychologically, state F feels like complete self-confidence. Any doubts, experiences, reflection are incompatible with this state. A sense of the owner, wherever the person is. The attitude to win at any cost. Strong nervous system and self-control. Fast mobilization of forces, allowing you to strike or reflect a blow at any second. These are all clear psychological signs of F.
On a physical level, this state requires a massive, poured body. There are few movements, but all of them are made firmly, in one jerk, without pauses. Static posture of a person firmly standing with both feet on the ground. The look is sharp, intent, heavy. With this look, as it were, they weigh, assess the balance of power. Despite the firm grounding, an axis of rotation seems to pass through the body: the F state is very agile - the body easily turns in any direction, quickly reacting to the situation from the front, back, side.
Last edited by SGF; 09-21-2020 at 12:30 PM.
that bothers me, too
Lol. Maybe he/she saw it as a lame/childish Ne joke... and was probably also jealous of others building relationships in their presence.
Either I have extremely weak Se or it's not willpower/making others bend to your will because EIE-Ni and ILE-Ti have seen that I was weak, over-powered me, and made me do things I didn't want to do. There are EIE-Ni and ILE-Ti who had far stronger wills than I did. That's why the information elements aren't good to go by (there are really no good definitions of them), but rather the types as a whole and how people with those types behave. It's just like how SLE are made to do things they don't want to do in school systems. Many EIE and ILE are some of the strongest willed and controlling people I know. Generally, base function subtypes will have less willpower than creative function subtypes, simply because base function subtypes are more mentally inclined and verbal and not as observant of their surrounding area while creative function subtypes have more energy, they feel more physical strength and power in their bodies than base function subtypes do and they adapt better to new environments (e.g., LSI-Se and SLE-Ti have more internal willpower and physical strength than LSI-Ti and SLE-Se do).
Cognitive extraversion correlates more with willpower than having Se in your ego block.
And Se isn't about violence or using force either because the ESI-Fi is more violent and more likely to throw punches, slap, or break things (because of increased anger and internal strain and less use of logic, less getting what they want, more envy, less ability to take a joke, less ability to read someones' intentions, greater paranoia, and inability to use wit to their advantage, they're more serious, they're not as cerebral and they have less self-control, and they have greater internal conflicts, so they use violence and advocate hurting people more) in contrast to their more cerebral, more pro-innocence ESI-Se half-sisters from a different mother.
Being amoral allows for sober outlook aka realism in it’s true form. Opportunistic, sure but the question is, why not? Se learns by trial and error.Se is irrational, thus it´s amoral. And that´s when it´s considered forceful and domineering, taken to its extremes. You simply "see" someone who is weaker and you can push him around and steal his money. You "see" that your girlfriend is not around and cheat on her. You "see" that your friend is having some difficulties in keeping up during a race and still decide it´s better to let him go and win.
These are real-life examples taken from my life, being EJ-Ni I´ve had many Se dom friends. Which of course often takes a bad rap on forums since its advantages in real life are quite obvious, it´s not like you guys really need a further push
I have been typed according to model G, so that means 4DTi+ with 4DSi-...aaand my Se is only 3DSe+.. so it does not reflect the Se program function description. Imo in me it mainly manifests in being observant, self controlled, responsible & willful/stubborn. My Se is mainly there to ensure my Ti program is followed by me and others. So a lot actually depends on how and what I think.
Imo I'm observant of power relations, so I can easily size people and situations up, which means I don't make the mistake of "biting off more than I can chew", which means I don't really come across as controlling. I am prone to quick mobilizing when shit hits the fan tho.
in terms of actual violence, I sometimes discharge rage into inanimate objects, so for example after a heated discussion with the LIE sales director where he stubbornly refused to accept the reality of the situation that we can't laser-cut 1 mm inox thin letters because the process thermally deforms them.. I was so damn angry I smashed the receiver into the service phone until both were just plastic shards and electronics..
Last edited by SGF; 09-23-2020 at 07:46 AM.
LOL 3D Se is still stronk, just more precise. Sounds like the LIE boss was taking some weird chances which triggered your PoLR Ne.
Imo I'm observant of power relations, so I can easily size people and situations up, which means I don't make the mistake of "biting off more than I can chew", which means I don't really come across as controlling. I am prone to quick mobilizing when shit hits the fan tho.
This reminds me when I played JV softball in high school. Two of the girls on the team were being really catty and bitchy towards me because I was a freshman who got placed above my “level.” They kept close watch on me, criticized my technique, didn’t invite me to any informal get togethers, etc. All the fucked up Fi shit. During practice one day, one of them (Mackenzie) threw the ball really hard right at my face but missed and it hit my arm. I was very calm about it and walked up right to her, grabbed her hair and next thing I knew, I was choking her and rubbing her face in the dirt. I told her if she don’t behave, I’ll bury her. She knew I meant it. She even cried and begged for forgiveness. I got a bruise from her shenanigans which made me even more unhappy. I really wanted to smash her face in. The other one (Trisha)... I actually warned her before to stop being a bitch to me or else I’ll drown her (we were also on the swim team). The whole team even heard me say that to her. She didn’t listen to me. I cornered her in the bathroom and shoved her head in the toilet and kept flushing. Not only was she laughed at by the team, the whole school heard about it and made fun of her- a freshman bested a junior. Ironically, I wasn’t punished nor taken off the team. Coaches said they were hazing me and I just hazed them back so we were “even.” One of the coaches was Trisha’s dad and even he defended me. The principal accepted it and called a truce.
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