The Dark Side of Believing in True Love Duals

[Adam Strange]

I think this topic has been discussed before, but I can't find the thread and so I'm posting it here.

This thread was inspired by an article on Result types by Tsypin, posted on wikisocion and linked here: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ypes_by_Tsypin

and a popular article posted on the bbc.com describing the effects on long term relationships of believing in "true love", found here: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...g-in-true-love

which describes research done by Renae Franiuk of Aurora University, IL, on "implicit theories and relationship satisfaction and longevity."

Her original article is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...evity/download

The subjects of the two articles seem to be related, and bode ill for all of those XXXj dual pairs out there, unless they can adjust their behavior.

[sbbds]

Believe in yourself, and people, not concepts, IMO, first of all... then see if you’ve still got a problem there.

[Adam Strange]

Here is a more nuanced view of the situation.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/tapestry/lo...hips-1.5112526


I particularly enjoyed the podcast on the page.

[Rusal]

Socionics gives so much hope for relationships
But only with people from your quadra
not activity though because you'll tire each other out
duality is better
but only with the right subtypes
which depend on whom you read but that's ok
as long as you're not result types

[Mila]

I don't think "duality" is what most people think it is or has the powers ppl say it has.
Ppl believe duality is like "magic" and duals are like perfect ppl, a partner for you in the idealized fantastical way hollywood and ppls imagination pictures it. But it's not.
Duality is complementarity and a relation for survival. Augusta says duality is a relationship were true love appears, but true love is not what most ppl think it is. Its not the fulfillment of your perversions, imaginations, romantic fantasies, etc. Is more growth, change, sacrifice, service...all this for "nothing" of what you'd expect. Love is not getting something in exchange. If you have a list of qualities your ideal partner should have for you to love, I suggest going after someone who has those traits and not even thinking in socionics or true love because that has nothing to do with that. Duals are like two stones that polish each other little by little until both of them are smooth and shiny.

[Dr PissBender]

I don't think "duality" is what most people think it is or has the powers ppl say it has.
Ppl believe duality is like "magic" and duals are like perfect ppl, a partner for you in the idealized fantastical way hollywood and ppls imagination pictures it. But it's not.
Duality is complementarity and a relation for survival. Augusta says duality is a relationship were true love appears, but true love is not what most ppl think it is. Its not the fulfillment of your perversions, imaginations, romantic fantasies, etc. Is more growth, change, sacrifice, service...all this for "nothing" of what you'd expect. Love is not getting something in exchange. If you have a list of qualities your ideal partner should have for you to love, I suggest going after someone who has those traits and not even thinking in socionics or true love because that has nothing to do with that. Duals are like two stones that polish each other little by little until both of them are smooth and shiny.

But ur my mom and that's magic. Sli chan

[Mila]

But ur my mom and that's magic. Sli chan

:3

I know.

I think most ppl has unrealistic expectations concerning duality (or any relationship for the matter). Duality makes ppl change, grow and make them do efforts that otherwise they won't feel like doing.Nowadays ppl seem to look for love as they look for any other product, it must be perfect and instant.Today, all kind of relationship that involve "effort" means its not the "right" person for you. They bring that postmodernist perspective of duality when socionics doesn't even suggest that whatever they have in their "ideal" and fantasies is going to comply.

Romantic relationships affect the most intimate areas of a person's functioning, so dualization in this area will have the greatest affect on a person's life. The early stages of a dual romance may be similar to any other relationship where infatuation is present, but what is different is the psychological distance between the partners. The naturally close distance causes partners to relax internally and be more spontaneous than they would be in most other relationships. Duals quickly recognize that their partner is not overly concerned with their weaknesses and is not going to criticize sore spots. In romance dual partners quickly move from stereotyped romantic behavior to what is actually natural and sincere for them. Partners may find that they "discover themselves" through the dual relationship. By seeking out their true desires and natural tendencies and ignoring societal expectations, they actually enrich the relationship and gladden their partner. If a person has not enjoyed dual relations before, experiencing them for the first time will likely be a transformational experience. In the initial stage of a dual relationship, partners often "drop out" of society for a period of time to devote energy to the new relationship and the exciting process of self-discovery.

After infatuation diminishes, stable romantic relationships between duals generally grow into tender friendships with a strong element of playfulness.

Dual relations in romance develop partners' individuality, and different dual pairs may exhibit different external behavior. Some couples may seem like they fight a lot; in actuality, they are expressing emotions that neither partner takes personally, and letting off steam and demonstrating playful aggression may well be part of the "game" that the partners have developed. Other couples may seem businesslike or even disinterested in each other in public until you get to know them better. In each case, the couple's behavior will center around the elements of each partner's Ego functions — especially the base function.

Dual romantic relations can have elements of conflict just like any other as irritation and stress build up and the couple experiences external pressures. The key difference is the inherent psychological comfort level and the letting down of barriers that automatically occurs in dual relations. The conflicts that do arise are usually worked through carefully (which means different things for each dual pair) and ultimately enhance the relationship and partners' individuality.

Dual relations are a "closed system" in that partners in a successful dual relationship (see disclaimer below) satisfy most of each others' psychological needs and become a self-sufficient unit. They may seem closed off and inaccessible to some outsiders, but partners have simply become more selective about their activities and outside contacts as they help each other remove unnecessary irritants and stresses in their lives. Such conditions encourage self-realization, which requires focusing energy on things that are important to you and ignoring much else.

Some romantic dual couples who spend the vast majority of their time together may experience an "identity blurring" effect. In this circumstance, the couple may lose most sense of distinction between one another, functioning not as two parts of a whole, but merely as a whole itself. This can be accompanied by a distancing of the idea of the individuals' physical selves and names from the actual conception of the partner. This can eventually reach point where the partner becomes difficult to conceive of or even picture externally-- as though images of them or their name are actually referring to some third old friend whom the partner has not seen in a while. Duality in this form could well be termed "integration"; neither partner could fully define their identity without some inclusion of the other. source

[Dr PissBender]

:3

I know.

I think most ppl has unrealistic expectations concerning duality (or any relationship for the matter). Duality makes ppl change, grow and make them do efforts that otherwise they won't feel like doing.Nowadays ppl seem to look for love as they look for any other product, it must be perfect and instant.Today, all kind of relationship that involve "effort" means its not the "right" person for you. They bring that postmodernist perspective of duality when socionics doesn't even suggest that whatever they have in their "ideal" and fantasies is going to comply.

Romantic relationships affect the most intimate areas of a person's functioning, so dualization in this area will have the greatest affect on a person's life. The early stages of a dual romance may be similar to any other relationship where infatuation is present, but what is different is the psychological distance between the partners. The naturally close distance causes partners to relax internally and be more spontaneous than they would be in most other relationships. Duals quickly recognize that their partner is not overly concerned with their weaknesses and is not going to criticize sore spots. In romance dual partners quickly move from stereotyped romantic behavior to what is actually natural and sincere for them. Partners may find that they "discover themselves" through the dual relationship. By seeking out their true desires and natural tendencies and ignoring societal expectations, they actually enrich the relationship and gladden their partner. If a person has not enjoyed dual relations before, experiencing them for the first time will likely be a transformational experience. In the initial stage of a dual relationship, partners often "drop out" of society for a period of time to devote energy to the new relationship and the exciting process of self-discovery.

After infatuation diminishes, stable romantic relationships between duals generally grow into tender friendships with a strong element of playfulness.

Dual relations in romance develop partners' individuality, and different dual pairs may exhibit different external behavior. Some couples may seem like they fight a lot; in actuality, they are expressing emotions that neither partner takes personally, and letting off steam and demonstrating playful aggression may well be part of the "game" that the partners have developed. Other couples may seem businesslike or even disinterested in each other in public until you get to know them better. In each case, the couple's behavior will center around the elements of each partner's Ego functions — especially the base function.

Dual romantic relations can have elements of conflict just like any other as irritation and stress build up and the couple experiences external pressures. The key difference is the inherent psychological comfort level and the letting down of barriers that automatically occurs in dual relations. The conflicts that do arise are usually worked through carefully (which means different things for each dual pair) and ultimately enhance the relationship and partners' individuality.

Dual relations are a "closed system" in that partners in a successful dual relationship (see disclaimer below) satisfy most of each others' psychological needs and become a self-sufficient unit. They may seem closed off and inaccessible to some outsiders, but partners have simply become more selective about their activities and outside contacts as they help each other remove unnecessary irritants and stresses in their lives. Such conditions encourage self-realization, which requires focusing energy on things that are important to you and ignoring much else.

Some romantic dual couples who spend the vast majority of their time together may experience an "identity blurring" effect. In this circumstance, the couple may lose most sense of distinction between one another, functioning not as two parts of a whole, but merely as a whole itself. This can be accompanied by a distancing of the idea of the individuals' physical selves and names from the actual conception of the partner. This can eventually reach point where the partner becomes difficult to conceive of or even picture externally-- as though images of them or their name are actually referring to some third old friend whom the partner has not seen in a while. Duality in this form could well be termed "integration"; neither partner could fully define their identity without some inclusion of the other. source

I even get bored if the person is too easy to solve. My SLI is protective of me and super cool and logical and I honestly like that. I've always wasted my time with ethical women and honestly they bored me, and i don't like that ethical drama, it's not attractive, i have enough with that in myself lmao

[Mila]

I even get bored if the person is too easy to solve. My SLI is protective of me and super cool and logical and I honestly like that. I've always wasted my time with ethical women and honestly they bored me, and i don't like that ethical drama, it's not attractive, i have enough with that in myself lmao

I also get bored easily with ppl. I don't think I could keep a relationship or marry some other type because if things are too easy I get bored. I can make other men my friends but I is really hard to feel attracted.

[Dr PissBender]

I also get bored easily with ppl. I don't think I could keep a relationship or marry some other type because if things are too easy I get bored. I can make other men my friends but I is really hard to feel attracted.

Aye, my SLI uwu has said she gets bored fast af too, but not by me ever uwu goo goo ga ga muthafuckas

[The Reality Denialist]

This Tsypin dude makes me think of how process types do not really see negative emotions as something to be shunned away. In fact many times they can find them entertaining.

Inadequate reactions if we ask from result types. [In turn result types do not conduct themselves that well if we ask from process types.]

This probably due to their predisposition to catch associations from the past [specific for each type] which also gives perspective in terms of hope and adaptation [also bit poorer presence and poorer tolerance for routine].

[Tallmo]

Duality is magic. It is actually a very fitting word. Don't say that it isn't. That's basically what it is, because it takes off the weight of your unconscious side. Everything feels like a breeze. You feel more whole. Just try a dual relationship and you'll see.

The downside is of course that nothing has really changed. As soon as your dual is gone, you are stuck with yourself again. You can't escape your weak side, but you can temporarily outsource it.

[Northstar]

Duality is pretty magic in the sense that you will never run out of meaningful discussions since partners instinctively understand and stimulate each other.

[The Reality Denialist]

The functional fragmentation perspective looks poor in face of mirages. It usually feels like I should hit their PoLR and mobilising. What separates duals and mirages? It is exactly result/process.
As per belief? Why believe?

[Rebelondeck]

As I've said before, what we really need is not often something that we feel most comfortable with or desire - somewhat like people needing the patch but wanting a cigarette. I can see many flaws in my dual as I'm sure that she can see in me, and younger versions of us would not likely have gotten together. Of all my relationships, it hasn't been in the passionate top-half but she has been the best supporter of my well-being by far - as I seem to be for her. I don't think it bodes ill; life is a series of choices and compromises. I recommend using Socionics for understanding of one's relationships rather than for making personal relationship choices because people can coexist peaceably with all types - if there's enough mutual understanding and acceptance......

a.k.a. I/O

[ooo]

so, to sum it up, there are two main approaches to loving: facing reality or idealization. facing reality implies growth while idealizing can result in incorrect when not abusive behaviors.

in socionics, result types tend to opt for the least "socionics ideal" situations, yet we assume they don't want to deal with real love/growth, process types who more easily opt for the "socionics ideal" are instead considered real lovers/growers...

can you see the bias?

I'm reminded of smth I wrote in here last summer, I'll copy paste a part of it:

more and more I'm liking the idea that it's the goal of a couple to become dualized, from an initial position where they're not, and it's probably why we see many winning couples as duals, because they've learnt, or better, they're learning, to become one. but this implies that we're ever changing and not the fixed things that socionics says we are...

link

this is confirmed by the many couples of socion experts and theorists that started as quasis, conflictors, look a-like, whatnot... and then magically became dualz. go guess!

[lynn]

I probably have this destiny mindset, since I always thought that everything is decided in the very beginning of a relationship. It is encapsulated in the first moments you meet someone, and then it can also get grounded in reality if the circumstances allow it or *poof* disappear into the randomness of life like everything else usually. That's why so many people experience bad relationships, because they are simply not truthful in what is actually there as real potential and just pour a lot of work in a shitty relationship instead. Which actually seems more unrealistically idealistic to me. I think this also refers to a lot of other situations, etc, like work where you might get stuck in the wrong career path / or education, instead of going for what is right for you.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

You should remember that there are probably no reputable peer-review journal papers which support the notion that duals as defined by Socionics have especially beneficial relationships: - you should not limit your happiness based on Socionics.

There is some Big Five research into relationships - I'm not aware of any that have conclusions that seem to substatiate some element of Socionics. If you read the wikipedia page on the Big Five and research into it, it says the following:

The Big Five model of personality was used for attempts to predict satisfaction in romantic relationships, relationship quality in dating, engaged, and married couples.
Dating couples

Self-reported relationship quality is negatively related to partner-reported neuroticism and positively related to both self and partner-reported conscientiousness

Engaged couples

Self-reported relationship quality was higher among those high in partner-reported openness, agreeableness and conscientiousness.
Self-reported relationship quality was higher among those high in self-reported extraversion and agreeableness.
Self-reported relationship quality is negatively related to both self and partner-reported neuroticism
Observers rated the relationship quality higher if the participating partner's self-reported extraversion was high

Married couples

High self-reported neuroticism, extraversion, and agreeableness are related to high levels of self-reported relationship quality
Partner-reported agreeableness is related to observed relationship quality.

These reports are, however, rare and not conclusive.

That may mean for example you should seek individuals who have low neuroticism, high agreeableness, high extraversion, high conscientiousness, and high openness. EIEs, basically. And that you should perhaps "fake" being that way if you are not naturally that way.

I think based on other research though that the members of this forum should place much greater emphasis on finding people who for example share your politics, your religiosity, your level of education, your drinking and smoking habits, and your taste in various aspects of culture (if you have taste). These are likely together far more important than Socionics type (certainly based on actual research) and are far more readily identifiable. This is a huge part of why in recent years I've been especially interested in geographical data that represent such variables.

[Northstar]

That may mean for example you should seek individuals who have low neuroticism, high agreeableness, high extraversion, high conscientiousness, and high openness. EIEs, basically.

I support this notion. Emphasis mine.

[Disturbed]

Duality has never really applied to me.

I'm not sure what my type is (it's either ESI-Fi or LSI-Ti), but throughout my life I've generally had huge preferences for ILE-Ti then SLE-Ti, but I still wouldn't feel all that comfortable with an SLE-Ti. No EIE or LIE woman has ever really captured my mind anywhere near like so many ILE-Ti and SLE-Ti women have. However, ILE-Ti and SLE-Ti really never want to spend time with me. A huge part of it is that I'm just too masculine (I'm mainly a talker who takes very little physical action, I'm very poorly coordinated, I'm not sequential in expression, I'm slow to process information accurately) and feminine women prefer feminine men (ILE-Ti women tend to like men who are like themselves; people who are more into physical action rather than talking, who interact well physically with the environment, who are visual thinkers, competent with machines and tools, good in nature, interacting with the physical world, and who are good with insult and black humor).

I would kill to have a brain that was great visuo-spatially (great spatial and object and visual detail awareness and size discrimination) and who could deductively reason and could think sequentially and had great fine motor coordination rather than with having more understanding of verbal concepts and how society as a whole works. My vocabulary was too large when I was younger, although due to poor coordination I didn't express myself very well in conversation. I tend to dominate conversations since I don't process what other people say well on the fly.

[Lord Pixel]

The dark side is you feel entitled to relationships with people.

[Adam Strange]

The dark side is you feel entitled to relationships with people.

Amazing. Thank you for that.

I have been assuming that just because I get along with most people in ways predicted very accurately by Socionics, I’d get along with everyone that way. And they with me.

But it doesn’t happen that way in every case. Assumptions can be a bitch.

*EDIT*
What I've found with Duals is that I'm immediately at ease with them, and I find them to be extremely interesting. I've noticed that the male Duals that I know, either from work or just from being friends, always (and I mean, always) seem to want to have more contact with me. My male ESI friends don't always seek me out, but when I call them, they tend to say "Why haven't I heard from you for so long? We should talk more." And in dealing with Duals professionally, male ESI's also seem to feel this magnetic draw towards me which causes them to search for reasons for working together more.

So when I meet a female dual, especially one whom I like, I naturally assume that she feels what I'm feeling. I want more of her, and when she doesn't seem to jump at the chance to get naked, I'm left asking myself, "Doesn't she feel what I'm feeling? Doesn't she recognize this for what it is?"

Well, no, she doesn't.

She certainly doesn't recognize her feelings as being the result of Duality. Before I was able to put a name to it, I didn't recognize it, either. I just thought, "Oh, here's this weird-looking girl who feels like a lot of nothing (because of no mutual conflict, dummy) and she sometimes says something that kind of makes sense (which is evidence of complementary help). But man, she doesn't feel even close to that sexy little red-headed girl (the Mirage LSI) or that super helpful and understandable thin girl (the Semi-Dual EII).
And I'm sure that my female Duals are having exactly the same thoughts. Exactly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTpfP0w0_iA

Deciding to go all-in with a person is a big decision, and for most people, it is usually based on similarities in social status and appearance. Money and sex. Not on some obscure Russian theory. And Duals are usually miles apart in those things.

[Tarnished]

I think Duals work best when living together, not sexual/romantic relationship nor being understood. The point with Duals: you feel relaxed when being together (both male and female), don't have to put any masks on, or worry about being judged hard when being yourself.

And for marriage, "living together" is more important than sexual/romantic desires. Any small problems when people live together will become big problems in the long run, when your hormone fade away overtime.

Even "being understood" is not that important with duals. There are types that could understand you better than your dual. It's all about "don't step in each other's shoes", "motivate each other" and "cover each other's weaknesses". Duals can do all of those things unconsciously without actually understand each other in a conscious way.

[Mila]

Duality is magic. It is actually a very fitting word. Don't say that it isn't. That's basically what it is, because it takes off the weight of your unconscious side. Everything feels like a breeze. You feel more whole. Just try a dual relationship and you'll see.

The downside is of course that nothing has really changed. As soon as your dual is gone, you are stuck with yourself again. You can't escape your weak side, but you can temporarily outsource it.

I'm married to My dual. Also you probably you didnt even get what I said.

[Sol]

The common idea of love is when two people feel good with each other.
The culture understands that this can be achieved by when two people care about each other and help each other.
The need in this care predisposes to have a feeling of joined minds, when you are tuned to what happens with other human and so absorb his thoughts, emotions and sensations as yours too. When you are feeling you both as equal parts of "One", alike two hands of same body. When you share the most in the life and in both of you. It's rather close to what is called good close friendship. In pairs to this is added sexual attraction.

When problems may come?
When you notice that other human do not care enough about some of your interests, when you feel not good in something - you think "we have no good love", to value this relations lesser and mb to seek for other human for better love.
People are different and mb there can be better ones for you, indeed. But the degree of "wrong human" can be overesteemated. While "new one" can appear better in lesser degree or even worse, than you initially supposed.
If people think that love is what exists "as is" only (alike just find the "correct human"), but not what also needs efforts and care about each other to establish it - they get this problem.
What much exists "as is" is sexual attraction. While friendship relations need a time and efforts, to know other human, to establish a mutual care where both help each other to feel better and good enough. If a human gets strong sexual passion - this motivation and excitation may compensate the lack of friendship for some time, the lack of personal factor in relations. After ~3 years sexual attraction generally significantly decreases, and people notice more clear the lack of friendship support and of good between them. If geting this they will think "ow.. I've just mistaken" and start to seak or switch for another one, - this may repeat the situation. If these two people will do efforts to establish better friendship - they may feel much better in existing relations, and sexual attraction mb improved with this too to add the fun.

Duality and good IR mb said as among important personal traits which help to establish good friendship/love. Make this easier.
It does not mean that you can't feel good enough with other IR. And does not mean that you'll feel automatically good with your dual or someone "correct" for you. A sympathy - yes, may appear automatically, but for feel good in relations as a marriage or friendship needs efforts from you.
"True love" to be needs much of efforts in relations. You are accepting interests of other human same important as own ones. You are accepting his thoughts, emotions and sensations same important as own ones. You are accepting what other human does in the life same important for you as for him. It's a lot of what you _both_ need to do to become as One. The more degree 2 people share the life between them - the more of love they have. Having love state - the more of usefulness they may get from each other and to feel better in those relations.

So "true love" is important to be seeked for. The problem can be in how people understand it's goten.
A factor of "correct human" or "correct enough human" exists. But it's not the only factor and mb not absolute factor. They should notice the existing in marriage vows words as "I will love you and honour you all the days of my life". People vow each other to love each other - what means this needs their will and efforts, and not what "just exists". This means to care about interests of each other, to have good feelings to each other what is natural motivation for such care.

-

Let's take an analogy.
What needs to have a good firm, which makes a product for wages and people feel good working in it.
Does it need only to gather appropriate people with needed skills together? No.
It needs they did efforts to understand how to deal with each other.
And it needs they do a work every day to get the product.
Then we get a "happy firm".
It also does not mean that people will have no conflicts or shortages to solve which may need efforts, more of such are expected in the beginning. Or to leave some "as is", as the good overweights enough in the cooperation.
We get "happy enough firm".
Also does not mean we can't make similarly "happy enough firm" with other people or if to change some of them.

Love is same every day work. To understand what other one needs and to care about him. Then he feels good with you. And the similar support you get to feel good too.
And same as with a firm you may get similar "true love" with several of people, not only with some "one" in whole world. At least, from the point of plain reason, as exists many people which we may like and which have good traits for us (including duality types). The good in idea of "the only one" is that if we believe to deal with such human, it helps to more concentrate on interests of the human and so do more efforts to establish love state with him - hence to get better relations and feelings there. The same reason to be useful is the intention for life long marriage, seen in vows. To be sexually monogamic helps in this concentration too, besides removing jealousy problems.