wanting to be "defined"

[remiges]

Thought of this after a recent conversation with @timber (I hope you do not mind I mentioned you... and if it looks like I have misrepresented the conversation, sorry in advance...)

"You may never know how an IEI feels about you. There are little white lies... and until an SLE comes along and grabs them by the neck, staring them directly in the eye, that is the only time the truth can be seen."

I am a compulsive liar, and never noticed it before I began looking into Socionics. There is not a morality attached to it, it is just something I do (when people hear liars, seems to me there is an association liars = bad people, I am not even aware what I am doing nor are my intentions to mislead anyone on purpose).

However, yes, I do want to be "caught." I do want to have someone to force me to orient to reality, rather than continuing on with creating shit out of nowhere just to continue to escape it. (No, this is it, there are no other possibilities/potentialities, pick something and stick with it rather than yet again, wiggling your way out of "defining yourself")

Is this an aggressor/victim thing in general? Does anyone else relate to this?

[Beautiful sky]

Glutton for punishment lol

[Beautiful sky]

It’s the opposite of me. I’m INFJ and I absolutely hate lies even white lies. Hate them. But I can set someone off track if I don’t want them to be around me if I find them to be a bad person-my character judgements sorry that darn Fi.

[thegreenfaerie]

I can't relate on the compulsive lying front, but I can relate on wanting to be with someone who will call me out on my less than ideal behavior. I don't like when it feels like you can just get away with whatever and would rather my partner confront me.

[Adam Strange]

Thought of this after a recent conversation with @timber (I hope you do not mind I mentioned you... and if it looks like I have misrepresented the conversation, sorry in advance...)

"You may never know how an IEI feels about you. There are little white lies... and until an SLE comes along and grabs them by the neck, staring them directly in the eye, that is the only time the truth can be seen."

I am a compulsive liar, and never noticed it before I began looking into Socionics. There is not a morality attached to it, it is just something I do (when people hear liars, seems to me there is an association liars = bad people, I am not even aware what I am doing nor are my intentions to mislead anyone on purpose).

However, yes, I do want to be "caught." I do want to have someone to force me to orient to reality, rather than continuing on with creating shit out of nowhere just to continue to escape it. (No, this is it, there are no other possibilities/potentialities, pick something and stick with it rather than yet again, wiggling your way out of "defining yourself")

Is this an aggressor/victim thing in general? Does anyone else relate to this?

Quoted for posterity, @remiges. Great insight there.

Lying is not a Victim-Aggressor thing, although wanting to be oriented to an Se reality certainly is Ni.

For the record, I know a lot of ILI's and not all of them lie, but they will often "reframe reality" to make it seem like they were right all along, or to try to convince everyone that they are the most competent and knowledgeable person ever born. This seems to happen right after they have a public and spectacular failure and want to change the way the outcome is viewed.
Not every ILI even does this, but the weaker ones do, and the more precarious their positions, the more they seem inclined to do this.

It's OK. I usually ignore it when an ILI starts telling me that he is a genius, because like anyone who is trying to compensate for their weaker functions, most other people can see the truth behind the projection. I'm pretty sure that my own frequent talk of having money or GF's or fast cars can look pretty pathetic to someone for whom Se and Fi are not an issue.

[remiges]

@Beautiful sky: Yeah, I get it. People hear lies and they think someone with questionable morals, maybe that’s right after all.

For the record, I know a lot of ILI's and not all of them lie, but they will often "reframe reality" to make it seem like they were right all along, or to try to convince everyone that they are the most competent and knowledgeable person ever born. This seems to happen right after they have a public and spectacular failure and want to change the way the outcome is viewed.

Yeah, I have caught myself reframing reality. Or, more like, I meant to do that. You see?

If I start going on about being a genius, feel free to call me out. Because if I do, I am probably not aware I am doing it. Above all, I consider myself more lucky than actually smart.

[enmity]

I despise lying even white lies and make sure to call out lying when I see it. I don't really see it as a victim thing but rather linked with Fe for white lies. Lying in order to be compassionate. I prefer the truth even if it is ugly and harsh.

[mu4]

What ppl lie about is more important than just lying. And how they lie as well.

[Beautiful sky]

I despise lying even white lies and make sure to call out lying when I see it. I don't really see it as a victim thing but rather linked with Fe for white lies. Lying in order to be compassionate. I prefer the truth even if it is ugly and harsh.

My ILI mom is the Queen is white lies

[The Reality Denialist]

You can bypass lots of lies by ignoring situations with whatever attitude. Anyway IMHO that is the best way to recognize murky states between so called for extremes.

[remiges]

I should have chosen my words more carefully, I suppose.

There is lying to save the peace or the emotional atmosphere, then there is filling in and creating information that is not actually there (which is more what I was meaning here). Still, a fabrication, so to me “lie” works just as well... proof my ethics functions are shit, I guess.

Anything can be turned into anything else. Nothing is ever “true” as long as you can continue to redefine it and find another way out of it.

[ashlesha]

Are you asking about the desire to be forced to tell the truth, specifically? This does seem different to me wrt the type and motivation of the lie. A potentially harmful lie is different than a white lie and I think anyone would have a different behavior in response to it (even if they still think a white lie is "bad"). And do you mean explicit lies told to other people or less blatant comforting narratives that you tell yourself for pain avoidance? Cuz...oof

[remiges]

Are you asking about the desire to be forced to tell the truth, specifically? This does seem different to me wrt the type and motivation of the lie. A potentially harmful lie is different than a white lie and I think anyone would have a different behavior in response to it (even if they still think a white lie is "bad"). And do you mean explicit lies told to other people or less blatant comforting narratives that you tell yourself for pain avoidance? Cuz...oof

Oof, yeah. I miscalculated. Lying was a loaded word, I should have seen that one coming (but, it did lead to some insights for myself, so I guess not all bad). It was really more about the escapism bit/running away from being defined until forced by either the situation or someone else.

As I was going through this, I realized that I may have prioritized Ne - sharing an idea, starting a new topic - slightly over Ni, trying to map out its outcome, as I did end up miscalculating it. I also realized that I knew, in general, people did not like the idea of 'lying' but that personally, I cannot sense the morality of the word... and that implies a modicum of higher dimensionality in Fe than Fi. Fascinating! Next is seeing if this pattern is more common than the other way around in my daily life...

[silke]

Is this an aggressor/victim thing in general? Does anyone else relate to this?

It doesn't seem to be type related, at least if you've seen some crime documentaries and how people carefully leave a bunch of clues behind themselves, or write letters enticing the police, it becomes kind of obvious that they want to be found out. They are not all IEIs nor even Ni-egos, sorry @timber. It's just a perpetual game of cat and mouse, since the socionics concept of duality seems to extend into other aspects of relationships and other aspects of life, so the liar is always looking out for their "dual", the complimentary yet conflicting opposite, who is going to find them out.

In socionics sense, types that have inert intuition, which lends into wishful kind of thinking, are paired up with types that have inert sensing and a much more concrete perception of the world, which could create to such a relational dynamic, but this extends well beyond Ni/Se ego relationships e.g. Ne lead ILEs are paired with Si lead SEIs, Ne h.a. LSEs are paired with Si h.a. EIIs and so on.

[remiges]

It's just a perpetual game of cat and mouse, since the socionics concept of duality seems to extend into other aspects of relationships and other aspects of life, so the liar is always looking out for their "dual", the complimentary yet conflicting opposite, who is going to find them out.

In socionics sense, types that have inert intuition, which lends into wishful kind of thinking, are paired up with types that have inert sensing and a much more concrete perception of the world, which could create to such a relational dynamic, but this extends well beyond Ni/Se ego relationships e.g. Ne lead ILEs are paired with Si lead SEIs, Ne h.a. LSEs are paired with Si h.a. EIIs and so on.

Yes, that is sort of what I was meaning here with the cat and mouse. This is true.

For me, personally, I would consider myself incredibly romantic (though I do not show this to many people in my life), I am an idealist and have more than once caught myself doing some stupid shit because “it seemed like a good idea.” I think I need a good dose of “stop being a moron, no, that can’t be, wake up from your stupid dreams and stop just making more shit up.” lol

Do you have any sources about inert sensing and inert intuition? I ended up reading some article using IEE as an example but it did not seem to quite fit what you were saying here... thanks in advance.

[Rebelondeck]

@remiges In my observations, more than a few IEIs seem to consider themselves outsiders and the only way to become part of a group is to adopt a persona that's not theirs. Many don't seem to think they measure up so focus on their images and how others may perceive them to an extent where they become obsessive about being the perfect model for the group. It would seem that some believe that if one pretends being someone with certain attributes long enough, they become that person. However, this tends to make them internally conflicted and somewhat unhappy pretenders. With SLEs as partners, it likely takes all the IEIs' efforts just to hang onto the ride, so they have little time for personal image....

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...FO+rebelondeck

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

@Beautiful sky: Yeah, I get it. People hear lies and they think someone with questionable morals, maybe that’s right after all.



Yeah, I have caught myself reframing reality. Or, more like, I meant to do that. You see?

If I start going on about being a genius, feel free to call me out. Because if I do, I am probably not aware I am doing it. Above all, I consider myself more lucky than actually smart.

@remiges, for what it is worth, you don’t seem to be insisting that you are a genius at all. Only a few ILI’s seem to do that, and you aren’t one of them. You seem like a very nice, normal, well-adjusted person to me.

[Adam Strange]

Trump lies all the time. This thread has gotten me wondering if he is looking for a logical, fact-checking ILI to call him out?

I just saw in the news that AG Barr, ILI and Trump supporter, just publicly stated that Trump’s tweets on ongoing criminal investigations are making it impossible for him to do his job.

Is this a case of duals making each other more normal?

Will Trump heed his dual’s advice and tone it down, or is he too long without a dual, too far down the road of being fucked up, and will either ignore Barr’s advice or will fire him?

It will be interesting to see....

[Rebelondeck]

@Adam Strange Duals seem to allow each other to be who they are and really don't regulate the other any more than other types of relationships. Regulation normally requires negative feedback but that feedback must be accepted, not filtered out.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange Duals seem to allow each other to be who they are and really don't regulate the other any more than other types of relationships. Regulation normally requires negative feedback but that feedback must be accepted, not filtered out.......

a.k.a. I/O

@Rebelondeck, I agree that Duals don’t tend to step on each other’s Socionics toes, but if your dual is acting badly in a way which doesn’t relate to Sociotype, I believe that you are the one who can best call them out on that stuff without offending them. Assuming they aren’t too far gone in their psychological problems.

I don’t think that lying is type-related. Seeking Te facts certainly is, and Trump playing fast and loose with facts might simply be his form of dual-seeking.

Incidentally, when I screw up, I openly admit it so that I can get corrective advice on how to do better, whereas ILI’s really do try to retroactively reframe reality to make it appear that their approach was actually correct all along. At least, I have observed this in several ILI’s and only in ILI’s, although I might have strong selection bias there. I know a lot of ILI’s.

Do you think this difference could be related to j vs. p?

[Rebelondeck]

.......Incidentally, when I screw up, I openly admit it so that I can get corrective advice on how to do better, whereas ILI’s really do try to retroactively reframe reality to make it appear that their approach was actually correct all along. At least, I have observed this in several ILI’s and only in ILI’s, although I might have strong selection bias there. I know a lot of ILI’s.

Do you think this difference could be related to j vs. p?

I thought the thread more was about IEIs? However, Ips do tend to hold some perspectives as almost sacred - sometimes holding onto misperception like a dog on a bone; Ejs do so also but to a much lesser extent. Eps tend not to hold much of anything sacred unless it facilitates their freedom. Ijs seem to get into habitual loops which can be interpreted as re-framing reality but this is more obliviousness. To what you seem to be referring is maturity where one has had more than a few occasions to be proven wrong or inferior, and is now willing to look outside the ego.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Mila]

this is interesting. I've to say that not only Ni types can lie frequently, another types can. Also from my experience, Ne types do it too. I've experiences about Ne types lying or twisting truth or hiding it, etc. Ne types can also go sneaky.

I think that S focus on tangible things that comes from the senses, so I think it can make N types to go straight about information exchange. Usually, S types focus on aspects such as who, what, when, where and why, which helps N to come to earth and stay on facts and reality. Long positive interactions would help in this. In the same way, I think N helps S but in different ways.

[remiges]

I think that S focus on tangible things that comes from the senses, so I think it can make N types to go straight about information exchange. Usually, S types focus on aspects such as who, what, when, where and why, which helps N to come to earth and stay on facts and reality. Long positive interactions would help in this. In the same way, I think N helps S but in different ways.

Thanks, Tommy.

I have to actually work really hard at sticking to the “S” facts, to not inject something with my own interpretation, i.e., the actual words said, where we were actually at, the specific context - because it is almost like I take the essence of a conversation and can suit it to fit my goals. (Yes, I had that conversation, but it wasn’t exactly like that, it wasn’t exactly in that place, it didn’t happen right at that time - foggy images replaying in my mind, unless I go out of my way to focus and use my declarative memory to fill in those details rather than jumping the gun and presenting it as “truth” when it is not... hence, lying).

[remiges]

All dynamics seek to be "seen through", wether by Fi or Ti, and they go around people unconsciously asking "What am I to you?”. In the case of Fe egos the question seems "do you understand me? what's the worth of my thoughts?" while for Te egos it's "what do these feelings mean about me? What's the worth of each of these?"

Shit, yeah, thanks. I can see how I do the latter... waiting for someone to tell me what it all means and why it matters to me as a person.

yeah aggressor-victim as others said too. (Good for you that you begin to see through your own bullshit. The more mature path would be to orient to reality by yourself and stop putting responsibility of your life onto others tho)

Hmm... now that, I have to think more about. But then again I am defining responsibility in Te/Fi terms, ie, making my own money/collecting own resources, again being limited by my own cognition. Nice. More food for thought.

[Aster]

I can’t relate to compulsive lying. I try not to lie and feel guilty if I do. The thing I feel about people that lie a lot is that you can’t trust them, they get a bad reputation for being untrustworthy and liars. And I personally wouldn’t want to be around someone I can’t trust.

And in the words of Dr House, everybody lies.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psy...hes-liar%3famp

[remiges]

@aster, thanks, nice article. On point.

I'm honest about being dishonest, at least... right? I'm trying lol.

[Northstar]

IEI boldly claiming something they just made up don’t seem to get mad when you tell them it’s bullshit and that they don’t have a clue what they were talking about. Almost the opposite.

[sbbds]

Yeah that seems very ILI to me @remiges . I think they can feel invisible or overly amorphous otherwise.

[silke]

Yes, that is sort of what I was meaning here with the cat and mouse. This is true.

For me, personally, I would consider myself incredibly romantic (though I do not show this to many people in my life), I am an idealist and have more than once caught myself doing some stupid shit because “it seemed like a good idea.” I think I need a good dose of “stop being a moron, no, that can’t be, wake up from your stupid dreams and stop just making more shit up.” lol

Do you have any sources about inert sensing and inert intuition? I ended up reading some article using IEE as an example but it did not seem to quite fit what you were saying here... thanks in advance.

It's up on Wiki: http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...tact_and_Inert
What did you read about IEEs that didn't fit the bill? I was reading Strati's typical -Fi bashing-of-the-types and she was saying it's almost impossible for IEEs not to lie. Having extensive experience with this type I'd say there is something to this, and it likely has to do with the permutative quality of their leading Ne.

There is another, enneagram aspect to it as I've seen this question being asked on enneagram forums and 9's won the lying competition hands down, outside of 3's whose "cardinal vice" is supposed to be deceit.

[remiges]

It's up on Wiki: http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...tact_and_Inert
What did you read about IEEs that didn't fit the bill? I was reading Strati's typical -Fi bashing-of-the-types and she was saying it's almost impossible for IEEs not to lie. Having extensive experience with this type I'd say there is something to this, and it likely has to do with the permutative quality of their leading Ne.

There is another, enneagram aspect to it as I've seen this question being asked on enneagram forums and 9's won the lying competition hands down, outside of 3's whose "cardinal vice" is supposed to be deceit.

Thanks for the link. The article I read did not really explain the actual core concept of contact and inert, though I admit I got bored reading it, so perhaps I went right over it. I'll read it again sometime.

(Since you mentioned enneagram, I wonder if I am actually 9 or just a miserable 3. Leaning to the latter. Though I suppose your point stands either way... thanks again.)

[remiges]

All dynamics seek to be "seen through", wether by Fi or Ti, and they go around people unconsciously asking "What am I to you?”. In the case of Fe egos the question seems "do you understand me? what's the worth of my thoughts?" while for Te egos it's "what do these feelings mean about me? What's the worth of each of these?"

yeah aggressor-victim as others said too. (Good for you that you begin to see through your own bullshit. The more mature path would be to orient to reality by yourself and stop putting responsibility of your life onto others tho)

Hmm... now that, I have to think more about. But then again I am defining responsibility in Te/Fi terms, ie, making my own money/collecting own resources, again being limited by my own cognition. Nice. More food for thought.

After trying to break away from the responsibility = Te thing... I believe I figured it out.

I am lying to myself, that I am a victim of circumstance. I have given up my personal power to make my own decisions, because "I had to." Because I told myself that was what the external environment demanded of me.

I was speaking to my best friend from college (an IEE, of course) - she knew something was up, "you're not yourself." I told her how annoyed I was at my work, commiserate, Fi pity party, and she said "If you don't like working there, then leave." "How can I leave?! I have bills to pay!" "If you really wanted to leave, you could - you're smart, you can find something else, and if you don't, then you have to ask yourself if you really hate it that much." I got irritated but… she was totally right.

I told my LSE friend that I just want to work a job that I actually want. He told me "You think I like my job?!" implying that I should just take any job I can get. I told him he choose to work his job, so if he doesn't like it he could choose to work somewhere else. He then goes off on me about how he didn't choose to work there but he did it to man up and take care of his mother. It kinda turned into a little argument after that. But if that isn't classic Fi vs Te idk what is.

It was a choice. It is true... I will say that I "had" to, be a good responsible mature adult for my family, but stop the bullshit of “it’s not the right time,” because really, any time has the potential to be the right time… and surely, if I actually did (or did not) want it, I would have done it by now.

In other words, get off your ass and do it, stop making excuses. And if you still hesitate and refuse to take action, make peace with the fact you did not actually want it, not that the circumstances are to blame.

[sbbds]

It was a choice. It is true... I will say that I "had" to, be a good responsible mature adult for my family, but stop the bullshit of “it’s not the right time,” because really, any time has the potential to be the right time… and surely, if I actually did (or did not) want it, I would have done it by now.

In other words, get off your ass and do it, stop making excuses. And if you still hesitate and refuse to take action, make peace with the fact you did not actually want it, not that the circumstances are to blame.

Transcending like fuck, into the wokeosphere

[remiges]

Transcending like fuck, into the wokeosphere

I clearly warned you in chat. About the mental instability shit. Ayy

[Lord Pixel]

@Rebelondeck, I agree that Duals don’t tend to step on each other’s Socionics toes, but if your dual is acting badly in a way which doesn’t relate to Sociotype, I believe that you are the one who can best call them out on that stuff without offending them. Assuming they aren’t too far gone in their psychological problems.

I don’t think that lying is type-related. Seeking Te facts certainly is, and Trump playing fast and loose with facts might simply be his form of dual-seeking.

Incidentally, when I screw up, I openly admit it so that I can get corrective advice on how to do better, whereas ILI’s really do try to retroactively reframe reality to make it appear that their approach was actually correct all along. At least, I have observed this in several ILI’s and only in ILI’s, although I might have strong selection bias there. I know a lot of ILI’s.

Do you think this difference could be related to j vs. p?

I just had a huge idk what to call it, shit show of situation with a few ILIs online recently, and this is exactly what I got. Re framing the situation to make themselves look either on top or not in any kind of wrong and making my "interpretation" look incorrect or like I was being unreasonable. Almost so that I almost got sucked in and convinced thinking I was wrong for a second.

[Lord Pixel]

I thought the thread more was about IEIs? However, Ips do tend to hold some perspectives as almost sacred - sometimes holding onto misperception like a dog on a bone; Ejs do so also but to a much lesser extent.

Thanks, Tommy.

I have to actually work really hard at sticking to the “S” facts, to not inject something with my own interpretation, i.e., the actual words said, where we were actually at, the specific context - because it is almost like I take the essence of a conversation and can suit it to fit my goals. (Yes, I had that conversation, but it wasn’t exactly like that, it wasn’t exactly in that place, it didn’t happen right at that time - foggy images replaying in my mind, unless I go out of my way to focus and use my declarative memory to fill in those details rather than jumping the gun and presenting it as “truth” when it is not... hence, lying).

Both these statements make me think of a few Ni/Fe user I've seen that speak very woo woo and really try to convince you of it.

an example skip to 20:48