Ceremonious FI?

[Delilah]

I came across this in one of Strat's articles:

"The LIE will have difficulty understanding and dealing with the "petty" (aristocratic, ceremonious) ethics of relations of EII, since LIE is subconsciously oriented at democratic ethic of relations of his dual ESI, whose ethical function is directed at providing immediate effective assistance in critical situations and not at "ceremonious" regulation of people's relations. Therefore, the callowness and negligibility of EII's grievances and offenses will soon start to annoy the LIE: "How is he (EII) so offended over such minor things?!" When such misunderstandings and misapprehended "offenses" happen, their relationship can falter and even come apart at early stages."

Personally, i don't see myself as a ceremonious person nor do i see my emphasis as focusing on the 'petty" (consistently harsh tones and language can put me off, but i hardly ever voice this tho). Any examples on how to bridge this bit of 'theory' with practice? I am not quite sure i see what Strat means here and my immediate reaction is ?? Thanks.

[Beautiful sky]

yes. i expect my husband to show up at family holidays and during holidays to contact his family and even make all appropriate relationship regards like writing a card on christmas

[The Reality Denialist]

ah ah democratic quadras and ceremonies...

[consentingadult]

It probably has to do with translation. I'm speculating a bit here, but it probably has to do with the scope of the ethics, to what purposes it is applied. For ESIs, ethics is much more directed at the current moment and circumstances, whereas for EIIs it is more directed at the greater scheme of things. E.g. for ESI will be critical if you stir your coffee in such a way that you make too much noise, whereas an EII will be critical if you are living a lifestyle that will have negative consequences climate conditions of for your great-great-grandchildren. Short-term vs. long term focus.

For ESIs, ethics is much more a matter of short term correction Fi+Se, which at times requires an unceremonious approach. For EIIs, the long term effects of correction are more important, so they are more inclined to teach/preach than to correct/punish, which requires a more diplomatic approach. ESIs will have no problem making you feel bad if it is to make you toe the line, EIIs lack the Se for that. But make no mistake about it: although the intention is not there, the Fi of EIIs can make people feel bad, especially in the case of Beta-STs.

From an IEE POV, ESI ethics are rather petty, EII ethics are impossible to live up to.

[The Reality Denialist]

Christmas cards... are just...dunno why people bother. I think it is relatively easy to automate it in print form (AI based writing ).

[ashlesha]

Christmas cards with family photos are so cute! Never been a card person myself, but I like pics of tots.

As for ethics, eh, what's "petty" seems like a subjective perception thing. Is aristocracy a common aspect of ethics in our society? Like "dress more professionally for work" or something maybe.

[thegreenfaerie]

Apparently this is a Ti PoLr thing, but I don't think people should be expected to do extended family things for the holidays every year and I think it's stupid for people to get mad about it.

[Lord Pixel]

I will say this, I notice ENTj not placing as much value on family. Like if their family is filled with horrible people, they will cut them off and not bat an eye. While in my case, family is hugely important and family gets alot of passes and special treatment simply because they are family and not because how they act. There's a devotion to family simply because we are blood related that ENTj doesn't seem to value and sees as meaningless. I think ENTj determines who their family is based on actions.

[Alonzo]

I will say this, I notice ENTj not placing as much value on family. Like if their family is filled with horrible people, they will cut them off and not bat an eye. While in my case, family is hugely important and family gets alot of passes and special treatment simply because they are family and not because how they act. There's a devotion to family simply because we are blood related that ENTj doesn't seem to value and sees as meaningless. I think ENTj determines who their family is based on actions.

QFT.

The thing is, ideally, as far as an unconscious Fi striving, I would like to have stable interpersonal relations with family and possess the know-how/patience/care/empathy to perpetually mend fences and all that jazz, and as I get older, the desire and ability to do so has become stronger. BUT, consciously speaking, I don't really believe in axioms like "blood is thicker than water" because that seems needlessly and impractically self destructive. IMO, it doesn't make sense to prioritize family I barely know OR know well and despise (due to things like abuse or disloyalty) over non blood related friends who have literally and figuratively saved my life on numerous occasions. Having garbage Fi means that in absence of actions and behaviors that unambiguously signal support/affection/trust/loyalty, I am disinclined to see that relationship as having any inherent value, which means it's not as difficult to disconnect.

[Rebelondeck]

More than a few LIE seem intently focused on lofty goals often to an obsessive extent, and they also seem to have a knack for ensuring that weeds won't obstruct the view of the big picture and their objectives. Unfortunately, most relationships are all about the weeds. Many seem to be repairing relationships that weren't that important yesterday when they needed to do something else but are important now because they found themselves out in front but all alone. I've wondered whether or not some of the very successful ones prefer buying companionship; thus, making it easier to discard when circumstances change.....

a.k.a. I/O

[FDG]

I will say this, I notice ENTj not placing as much value on family. Like if their family is filled with horrible people, they will cut them off and not bat an eye.

Yeah I can be like that. Not with CLOSE family because it´s hard. But with anything extended, I don´t care a whole lot.

[ashlesha]

 

This stuff is probably relevant to most people because their family didn't unwittingly support the person who put hopes and effort into the elimination of their personality and memory, is it anti Fi or -Fi that I blocked everyone out even though I know they had the best intentions because trying to contribute to the attempted elimination of my self out of ignorance is point blank unacceptable with respect to maintaining a relationship? I place a higher value on the people who were blocked from my hospital room and tried to get guardianship because they had the sense to feel that something was OFF about that woman and that's why I fucking CHOSE them to be beholden to through my life. (Prior to all this. Fi people reading?)

I've been biting my tongue cuz this shit ain't gotta be about me but there are worse places to talk about it lol.

Ah, one person I didn't cut out is my little brother (SLE) but I spilled my heart to him and he responded by vowing not to talk to her because I'm the one person who has stuck by him (his words) and he's Fi polr. A stronger feeling of obligation because closer family means closer period lol, they're around and stuff.

[Adam Strange]

I form close relationships with people whom I like. Some of them are family members, and some are not.

Yes, I can walk away from people and not bat an eye. In these cases, either we were never close, or I have decided that there is some reason that continued contact is bad for one or both of us. I flip a mental switch, and they are gone. On the other hand, if I let someone all the way in, then separating from them is incredibly painful to me. I might not show it, but it's there.

As for @Rebelondeck's speculation that LIE's might like to buy companionship, yes, I could see that being true in some ways. I don't have a problem paying for dates, and dates are a form of companionship. I pay for employees, and they are a form of companionship.
I definitely would not like to pay for sex. For one thing, sex isn't what I primarily need in an intimate relationship. Rather, I need Fi. And as a person who seeks Fi, I can tell the difference between someone who is faking Fi and someone who is genuinely expressing it.

I think I'm slow to date seriously and tend to hold people at arm's length because I look at Fi as almost total commitment, which might be a very undeveloped way of looking at Fi, but that's 1D Fi for you. This is actually the real reason I stayed a virgin until I was 25. I didn't want to have sex with a woman and be committed to her forever if she were secretly hiding bad habits or insanity. Fortunately, an LSI with only Role Fi was able to logic and Aggress me past that concern. Also, alcohol was involved.

[ooo]

short reminder that SFs are the socialites of the socion, so that they can easily put up a ceremonious facade for the people in front of them. more so than NFs.
in private, close relationships ESIs can be extremely rude and harsh , but this will hardly show in public. family and relationships are nurtured in the extent they profit something back.


another reminder for the democratic/aristocratic dichotomy, that's been proposed to change name in individualistic/collectivistic, respectively. this would swap the roles attributed to the demo/aristo dichotomy, alphas and gammas minding their own profit first, beta and delta minding those of the environment they're in, more.

[The Reality Denialist]

Reminds me of discussion I had with ESE.

ESE: so lot's of Christmas stress...???!!
Me: eh... I don't really take it on me...
ESE: ha ha!!

[Lord Pixel]

I mean the way I see it, it's no one's job to care about you except family, so I don't expect that from anyone except family, and I don't feel obligated to care about anyone except family, care for anyone else is based on other things besides obligation. First thing they ask you when you are in the hospital is do you have any family. Strangers and friends don't have the obligation to care about me to the level that family does in my book, I never ask of friends things that I would expect from family. I go back home and clear out the entire fridge from eating whatever I want, I would never do that at a friends house, I expect to be able to go back home and live on the couch if I wanted, if I ever asked a friend to do that that would be me requesting a huge favor, and if a friend asked me to do that that would be me giving a huge favor, but if it was family it's simply just me looking out for my own. Like if we were back in tribes and you needed food, would you count on the tribe of some random people to provide food and shelter or would you count on your own people? Cutting myself off from that feels like I'm cutting my roots and withering at the vine, cutting myself off from the only real stable relationship I have, while all other relationships can potentially end, because it's no one else's job to have a relationship with me. So it is strange to see someone do it so easily, it's a matter of values I guess. I say all this knowing some people have horrible and abusive families, which would make sense to separate from for your own well being. As far as saving your life, there's not many people that do that in your life, so yes it makes sense to prioritize those people highly, they're practically family at that point. But yea,

[Ryan]

I came across this in one of Strat's articles:

"The LIE will have difficulty understanding and dealing with the "petty" (aristocratic, ceremonious) ethics of relations of EII, since LIE is subconsciously oriented at democratic ethic of relations of his dual ESI, whose ethical function is directed at providing immediate effective assistance in critical situations and not at "ceremonious" regulation of people's relations. Therefore, the callowness and negligibility of EII's grievances and offenses will soon start to annoy the LIE: "How is he (EII) so offended over such minor things?!" When such misunderstandings and misapprehended "offenses" happen, their relationship can falter and even come apart at early stages."

Personally, i don't see myself as a ceremonious person nor do i see my emphasis as focusing on the 'petty" (consistently harsh tones and language can put me off, but i hardly ever voice this tho). Any examples on how to bridge this bit of 'theory' with practice? I am not quite sure i see what Strat means here and my immediate reaction is ?? Thanks.

Hm. It seems clear to me.

EIIs are easier to offend than ESIs. It doesn't really matter if you don't voice your disagreement, people can tell anyway. Like, distancing yourself from the situation is enough.

[Rebelondeck]

.....tend to hold people at arm's length because I look at Fi as almost total commitment......

LIEs don't seem to hold people at arm's length although they can be rather guarded and defensive; they seem to need to peer into peoples' souls so in order to do that, they tend to metaphorically get really close for a good look but don't seem to be able to remain totally objective. Fi has nothing to do with commitment although Fi-types can commit and be very loyal. ESIs can often provide an objective overview of the weeds and put it in terms that an LIE could relate to, but keep in mind that more than a few can expertly connive.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

LIEs don't seem to hold people at arm's length although they can be rather guarded and defensive; they seem to need to peer into peoples' souls so in order to do that, they tend to metaphorically get really close for a good look but don't seem to be able to remain totally objective. Fi has nothing to do with commitment although Fi-types can commit and be very loyal. ESIs can often provide an objective overview of the weeds and put it in terms that an LIE could relate to, but keep in mind that more than a few can expertly connive.....

a.k.a. I/O

Yes, I've seen a few instances of ESI's conniving. It is not pretty.

I assume that a person connives only when they can't get what they want by more open means. When I see an ESI doing that, I just want to tell her to stop it. But it is usually only visible long after the point of instigation, where it could be quietly headed off, and now is full-blown unpleasant behavior.

And Rebelondeck, you are right about LIE's wanting to "peer into people's souls". I actually think of this as "investigating the machinery", mainly because I then have a better idea of what they can be expected to do, but I don't get emotionally involved with a person just because I am examining the gears. I try to remain objective, but really, no one is more objective than an LII.

[Delilah]

short reminder that SFs are the socialites of the socion, so that they can easily put up a ceremonious facade for the people in front of them. more so than NFs.
in private, close relationships ESIs can be extremely rude and harsh , but this will hardly show in public. family and relationships are nurtured in the extent they profit something back.


another reminder for the democratic/aristocratic dichotomy, that's been proposed to change name in individualistic/collectivistic, respectively. this would swap the roles attributed to the demo/aristo dichotomy, alphas and gammas minding their own profit first, beta and delta minding those of the environment they're in, more.

If i am to be perfectly honest here Strat's comment sounded coated with more than a little bit of personal vengence, like almost as if she is butthurt about smth, like why call someone 'petty'? lol we keep making excuses for 'poor translation' lol

[Delilah]

I mean the way I see it, it's no one's job to care about you except family, so I don't expect that from anyone except family, and I don't feel obligated to care about anyone except family, care for anyone else is based on other things besides obligation. First thing they ask you when you are in the hospital is do you have any family. Strangers and friends don't have the obligation to care about me to the level that family does in my book, I never ask of friends things that I would expect from family. I go back home and clear out the entire fridge from eating whatever I want, I would never do that at a friends house, I expect to be able to go back home and live on the couch if I wanted, if I ever asked a friend to do that that would be me requesting a huge favor, and if a friend asked me to do that that would be me giving a huge favor, but if it was family it's simply just me looking out for my own. Like if we were back in tribes and you needed food, would you count on the tribe of some random people to provide food and shelter or would you count on your own people? Cutting myself off from that feels like I'm cutting my roots and withering at the vine, cutting myself off from the only real stable relationship I have, while all other relationships can potentially end, because it's no one else's job to have a relationship with me. So it is strange to see someone do it so easily, it's a matter of values I guess. I say all this knowing some people have horrible and abusive families, which would make sense to separate from for your own well being. As far as saving your life, there's not many people that do that in your life, so yes it makes sense to prioritize those people highly, they're practically family at that point. But yea,

See, i used to think that way, yet I have been more letdown by family than anyone else i've known (included youthful betrayals by some man or other) and I think the reason why that is, why I have felt more let down by family is exactly because i used to see them in the way you speak of family here. I now am of the opinion that we don't choose our family, and that's that, i have 0 expectations of them (and yes, socionics types do factor into those reasons, hell, it's a neat theory).

In a way I have always expected a massive letdown by them, but i didn't think i would actually live to see the day - just based that of off my understanding of their characters tho, and i was right it seems. Alas it happens. But as for your comments here, again, it does say in some socionics source or other that an EII who has not experienced certain circumstances themselves will even push others into staying together (for example, together as a family) regardless of how poorly these other folk might get along or how toxic they might be for each other.

[ooo]

If i am to be perfectly honest here Strat's comment sounded coated with more than a little bit of personal vengence, like almost as if she is butthurt about smth, like why call someone 'petty'? lol we keep making excuses for 'poor translation' lol

this last xmas eve my ESI sis got so mad for no apparent reason at my ILE dad, and to me for making a not so pleaseant comment about her bf (when she asked for my opinion), that she decided to spend the xmas day alone with her boss, her secret lover. we had planned to go to the mountains, she and I, alone, and 10 minutes after we had met at the family company to give everyone xmas wishes and she was behaving like a perfect people pleaser with all, I sent her a message to ask her out and she answered me "I'm on the train, merry xmas". 5 days we don't talk. really psycho.

therefore I'd throw in a trash bin wtv this thread is about : )

[Number 9 large]

yes. i expect my husband to show up at family holidays and during holidays to contact his family and even make all appropriate relationship regards like writing a card on christmas

thats all Fe stuff btw

[Beautiful sky]

If i am to be perfectly honest here Strat's comment sounded coated with more than a little bit of personal vengence, like almost as if she is butthurt about smth, like why call someone 'petty'? lol we keep making excuses for 'poor translation' lol

Because that’s gamma negativist talk

[Beautiful sky]

Why don’t you, @Delilah post the rest of that article where it talks about the EII getting hurt when LIE doesn’t remember her on holidays and special occasions

[Adam Strange]

Why don’t you, @Delilah post the rest of that article where it talks about the EII getting hurt when LIE doesn’t remember her on holidays and special occasions

Good grief. This made me realize that I didn’t send holiday greetings to my EII co-worker, while she is so diligent in sending me regular, formal greetings. I can easily see her getting her feelings hurt from my lack of attention, and I can also predict that she will suffer this in silence.

But you know, she is already trying pretty hard to get me to take her home. At the company Christmas party, she sat next to me and when we were mixing, she rubbed her body against mine three times, seemingly by accident. Christ, I’m already at the edge of doing something stupid with her. I don’t want to lead her on by sending her personal holiday greetings.

I have noticed that the male LSE that I work with is always calling his wife during the day. To me, this seems like it would be insulting to the capabilities of your wife. “Hi, dear. What are you doing? Do you need help with any little thing that you can’t handle? Do you need some advice? No? Yes? Oh, the bread landed butter side down? I’ll be home in a minute to take care of that. Don’t try to do anything until I get home. I’ll be right there.”

But apparently, this kind of attention is exactly what an EII needs. I’m pretty sure that ESI’s would be exhausted by this kind of thing. It would exhaust me to try to provide it.

[consentingadult]

I don’t want to lead her on by sending her personal holiday greetings.

Good call! It has happened to me quite a few times that a simple friendly gesture was interpreted as romantic interest on my behalf, causing hurt feeling later down the line. Wishful thinking makes people see things that aren't there.

And when sending a bouquet of flowers, make sure the florist doesn't send red roses. I once ordered a plain bouquet online for an ex GF of mine for her birthday, then the suckers sent a bouquet of red roses, which definitively weren't in the picture. That caused a mess as well...

[Delilah]

Why don’t you, @Delilah post the rest of that article where it talks about the EII getting hurt when LIE doesn’t remember her on holidays and special occasions

I'm not sure of the details you speak of since I stopped reading the article early on due to its pronounced lack of quality imo, but here you go in case it is helpful to you:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

[ooo]

Good grief. This made me realize that I didn’t send holiday greetings to my EII co-worker, while she is so diligent in sending me regular, formal greetings. I can easily see her getting her feelings hurt from my lack of attention, and I can also predict that she will suffer this in silence.

But you know, she is already trying pretty hard to get me to take her home. At the company Christmas party, she sat next to me and when we were mixing, she rubbed her body against mine three times, seemingly by accident. Christ, I’m already at the edge of doing something stupid with her. I don’t want to lead her on by sending her personal holiday greetings.

I have noticed that the male LSE that I work with is always calling his wife during the day. To me, this seems like it would be insulting to the capabilities of your wife. “Hi, dear. What are you doing? Do you need help with any little thing that you can’t handle? Do you need some advice? No? Yes? Oh, the bread landed butter side down? I’ll be home in a minute to take care of that. Don’t try to do anything until I get home. I’ll be right there.”

But apparently, this kind of attention is exactly what an EII needs. I’m pretty sure that ESI’s would be exhausted by this kind of thing. It would exhaust me to try to provide it.

As an EII I get really bored out of hearing my bf every day, but that's what he needs and I'm trying to satisfy him, even if sometimes I avoid to answer and he's got used to understand why I do that.. "avoidant" applies in most occasions of a EII's life. we're abstract. ESIs on the other hand belong to the "involved" dichotomy, they need to feel present and in control of the people close to them, my sis and ex, both ESI, use to call their partner at least 3 times a day to check what they're doing, my sister does that more than thrice though, I guess she has checks on her bf an average of 6+ times a day... but they're in a distant relationship.

[Adam Strange]

As an EII I get really bored out of hearing my bf every day, but that's what he needs and I'm trying to satisfy him, even if sometimes I avoid to answer and he's got used to understand why I do that.. "avoidant" applies in most occasions of a EII's life. we're abstract. ESIs on the other hand belong to the "involved" dichotomy, they need to feel present and in control of the people close to them,

This really explains a lot of puzzling behavior that I've seen in ESI's. I agree that they do seem to want to be in control of the people who are close to them, and to be honest, that is a deal-breaker for me, as an e8. No one is going to control me. Not in the slightest. I get a whiff of that and I'm gone. I have zero problems with commitment for life. I have 100% problems with control.

This might explain why I'm having trouble attracting an ESI.

my sis and ex, both ESI, use to call their partner at least 3 times a day to check what they're doing, my sister does that more than thrice though, I guess she has checks on her bf an average of 6+ times a day... but they're in a distant relationship.

Calling me three times a day is suffocating. It seems like the kind of thing an Anxious person would do.
When I was dating the LSI e6w5, she'd call me a few times during the week at work, and I really discouraged that. She'd need something and I would often be hundreds of miles away and be unable to do anything about it. Her being Mirage didn't help me with going to the ends of the Earth for her, but I've also gotten used to life with an SLI e9w1, who basically doesn't seem to need anything from anyone.

[ooo]

Adam you don't need to be attracted to ESIs in general, we can't be attracted to 500 million people in the world , hopefully if your only target are ESI, you'll find one that you love and that can love you. Not a massive huge clusterfuck of socionics sterotypes : )

good luck!

[sbbds]

we can't be attracted to 500 million people in the world

challenge accepted

[The Reality Denialist]

Adam you don't need to be attracted to ESIs in general, we can't be attracted to 500 million people in the world , hopefully if your only target are ESI, you'll find one that you love and that can love you. Not a massive huge clusterfuck of socionics sterotypes : )

good luck!

Apparently the goal is not to run the family of several wives. Not that there is something wrong with that.

[Adam Strange]

Adam you don't need to be attracted to ESIs in general, we can't be attracted to 500 million people in the world , hopefully if your only target are ESI, you'll find one that you love and that can love you. Not a massive huge clusterfuck of socionics sterotypes : )

good luck!

Believe me, I'm not attracted to every ESI that I see. There was an ESI cashier at the checkout last night at Meijers. She was 4' tall and her eyes were two inches apart. I went through the checkout once, then remembered something I needed to buy, and went through again, and she greeted me "Hello, Mr. Strange!" < Credit card data?

So she jumped at the rabbit, but this rabbit wasn't standing still.

Anyway, I rarely find an ESI that I'd want to take anywhere and would also want to have sex with. Which is why I keep calling the one I went out with last year, even though she's clearly not interested. FML.

Well, with 500 million female ESI's (you did the math on that, too, I see), I'm sure I can find a good one.

[Delilah]

Because that’s gamma negativist talk

You Ti too much, in my humble opinion . Sometimes you get faster to the answer via Fi....but, point taken.

[Hays]

As an EII I get really bored out of hearing my bf every day, but that's what he needs and I'm trying to satisfy him, even if sometimes I avoid to answer and he's got used to understand why I do that.. "avoidant" applies in most occasions of a EII's life. we're abstract. ESIs on the other hand belong to the "involved" dichotomy, they need to feel present and in control of the people close to them, my sis and ex, both ESI, use to call their partner at least 3 times a day to check what they're doing, my sister does that more than thrice though, I guess she has checks on her bf an average of 6+ times a day... but they're in a distant relationship.

Ahhh this reminds me of my husband who from the beginning has always rung on that phone so much! I verbalised my dislike of the phone and that I didn’t see the need, however it continues to this day with us now being in a routine of one daily call when he’s in the office. If he travels he likes to call at the airport or while driving, then again before dinnertime, maybe after dinner and definitely before bed...

When out with others they can give me glares if my phone keeps going off and I don’t answer his calls but to me if it’s important then husband or another would leave a message or ring back. I will usually only answer when out/busy if I know it’s likely important".

[youfloweryourfeast]

I make friends but I'm pretty bad at keeping in touch with them. The problem with LIE and EII is both can go w/o initiating and it's kinda chiil, because you don't feel like having to keep up. With LSEs they tend to be the ones always texting and asking random questions. Am Ngl I don't hate this but sometimes I do forget to respond and they act upset. I guess we do like someone who intiates and does everything for you which gamma nts would not want to have to deal with taking care of someone or doing stuff 24/7, or caring for si stuff.