Odd question, but has anyone ever known duals to immediately dislike each other? I think I've seen this happen recently, so I'm curious if anyone has experienced anything similar. If not, I'll brush up on my typing skills. シ
Dislike of duals
Odd question, but has anyone ever known duals to immediately dislike each other? I think I've seen this happen recently, so I'm curious if anyone has experienced anything similar. If not, I'll brush up on my typing skills. シ
I haven't saw this happening irl before. But I saw this happening in movies/tv shows.Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman
The duals disliked each other initially, and then they started growing closer to each other, and they started falling in love with each other.
You should watch the anime show "Inuyasha". He disliked his dual Kagome the first time he met her, but then they grew closer over time, and they ended up falling in love with each other and got married.
I reckoned the relationship between the duals whom you witnessed irl would look something similar to this too.
Even if they were to dislike each other now, they would still end up growing closer to each other, and they would either end up becoming close friends or end up falling in love with each other someday .
Duals can sometimes be quite rude to each other. Especially Se valuers. There is not much need to hold back and pretend, they make each other too comfortable for that.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
yes, i experienced this with a female SLE-Se colleague. there isn't even a reason, yet still the persisting feeling of antipathy.
ILIs love to hate their duals without really knowing them or when being in contact with the ones who are really ESEs.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
I can buy that. Thanks.
For the record, I've typed my girlfriend as SEI and one of my professors ILE. When I talk about my day to my girlfriend, she often gets surprisingly firm opinions about different experiences I bring up, even if I'm fairly neutral toward them -- she actually seems to care more about what happens in my daily life than I do. Anyway, I generally like this professor, though he's pretty idiosyncratic, and getting precise guidelines for assignments can feel like pulling teeth. After the first or second time I talked about him to my girlfriend, she seemed to take an immediate dislike of him, and I'd guess this is generally because she feels he's too inconsiderate of students, and/or unintentionally rude. She actually met him once, and spoke to him for about twenty seconds, and this just confirmed her opinion of him. Often when I mention him again, something in what I say seems to make her annoyed, and she'll tell me again, point-blank, that she doesn't like him, and give me a new reason why she doesn't.
Interestingly, I have another professor I type ILE, and she almost adores him. She has almost the opposite reaction when I mention him. She's also met him once, for what that's worth.
I might just be typing everyone wrong; who knows? I am pretty sure the first professor is ILE, and I really doubt I've mistyped him. My girlfriend I think is clearly Ti/Fe valuing. If I've mistyped her, I think it would be on the Si/Se axis; SLE would actually be my next guess for her -- she generally does well in Se-intensive environments. That said, she cries really easily and is pretty emotional as a rule, so unless I have a completely mistaken idea of what female SLEs tend to be like, I don't know what else she'd be. And she's said that various SEI type descriptions fit well.
@Hermit Soul, thanks for the response. I don't think Inuyasha is a show I'd be very interested in watching though.
Edit: @flames & @lynn, thanks for your responses too. lynn, I take it there must be some reason for that feeling? Surely you can't dislike them for absolutely no reason...
flames, I think ESEs and SEEs are the easiest types to tell apart after, at most, a minute-long conversation with them. They think and talk pretty differently IMO, though maybe everyone thinks that of their dual and the dual's quasi-identical/their conflictor. What would you say ILIs dislike about SEEs? I think I can guess, because I think the dynamic is somewhat similar to that between an ESE and LII, but I'm curious if you have other thoughts.
I find that ILIs are quick to wave someone off for just one characteristic they dislike. And with SEEs, they are easily irritated by a peppy attitude and a tendency to overindulge in vices. But the truth is that ESE is the one with the constant peppy attitude, not SEE. I agree SEE and ESE are quite different.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
I don't really think of duality in terms of like / dislike. It is a psychological compatibility, and that compatibility is there no matter what our personal view of the person is. A very mysterious thing if one doesn't know socionics.
Subtype also matters.
That being said. I think it's hard to really dislike a dual once you get to know them and spend time together. But it is always easy to see their flaws.
I've had very bizarre experiences breaking up with duals, or actually they broke up with me. By all normal standards we should be arguing, but instead we are cuddling and even joking. It's like the compatibility is living a life of it's own.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
there's actually no reason, just small things which i don't appreciate accumulating so that we simply don't vibe well. that makes it even more difficult to bridge the distance. i keep seeing her weak spots in a negative light, rather than compensating for it in interaction like duality relations are supposed to.
edit: also mismatched subtype
Um maybe not dislike but disregard
Maybe overlooked
Undervalued
Definitely passed up and over
I have a wonderful ESTj husband who loves me for who I am
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I've wondered about this myself. Ron and Hermione always come to mind lol, the whole, start of highly annoyed by/disliking each other, but grows into love... or Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice. I don't know that either of these pairs are actually duals, but for some reason I imagine this is what it could be like with duals.
^ yes, it makes sense
from hate to love is also between
Usagi Tsukino (SEE) and Mamoru Chiba (ILI) in Sailor Moon
&
between Aihara Kotoko (SEE) and Irie Naoki (ILI) in Itazura na kiss
I just wanted to say that’s a really noble thing to do and I respect that. That’s exactly what SLE-IEI is and not the gross, abusive relationship they write about here. SLE are just normal people, too. I sympathize with what you said about education and being poor. I’m poor and my parents pushed me into college right away and I left as soon as I could because I didn’t know what I wanted to do from the jump and so I didn’t want to waste any more money.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
I've met more than a few ESEs who were overly presumptuous trying to interrupt, insert themselves and or invade my space - and others with lots of baggage; I avoided them all. However, a certain amount of presumptuousness is likely something that LIIs may have to accept about their duals......
a.k.a. I/O
Although I can’t say I’ve ever disliked a dual (I don’t really dislike people too often anyway), I also feel repulsed by people who wallow in their first world problems, and some IEIs can definitely bitch and moan a lot about them while doing nothing about their lives to change them. Good for you if you were able to motivate one of these types of people lol.
IEI comes with a lot of variation. The healthy ones have a healing spirit that you want to be around and know just what to say. The unhealthy ones are a tidal wave of despair that you want to beat up.
(Cue my distaste for gamma introverts lol)
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
Ummm... there are even conflictors that are more than OK.
BUT...
duals... some seem distant but not unlikable... some seem to lighten up by my own eccentricity and I welcome it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentricity_(behavior)
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Maybe you should tell your SEI gf that you need to start dating ESEs in order to experience socionics in its full glory. In the name of science of course. Maybe she will understand, because one has to get to know some good and some bad duals in order to get the feeling for what duality really is.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I think the real question is, why would they like each other (at first)?
Assuming we're talking about like due to socionics factors, there's no reason to think someone you don't yet know has any redeeming qualities which would allow you to form a good relationship. If you've been in a rewarding dual relationship before, it might be easier to identify how beneficial a dual is to you, but even then it's not a given. I like Gulenko's explanation in the video below of how duality works.
Note that he says a few things which run against common conceptions:
-Duality has to be spontaneous, not planned.
-Duals may find each other irritating at first
-Your dual has to be able to provide help with some problem you are currently having. Note the example of the SLE "rescuing" the IEI in the scenario they act out.
@Adam Strange this may interest you
Join my Enneagram Discord: https://discord.gg/ND4jCAcs
Dislike of your dual?
I guess it's the 4D demonstrative function of your dual that confronts your 1D PoLR function.
I'm ok with most of them, but the ones that annoy me are thoses that don't use their ego-functions enough. When they(SLIs) are overusing their ignoring/demonstrative/inferior, they get respectively vulgar/anal retentive/crazy and aggressive.
There are other typologies outside of socionics that dictate their own intertype relationships, so yes, it's possible to be duals in socionics yet conflictors by other points of psychological makeup in which case any socionics duality will be quite strained.
I have an sli friend in need of an IEE
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Does anyone else feel like their duals would consciously value someone much more like themselves than like you?
I absolutely think this is true.
For years, because I was raised by thinkers, I rejected Feelers as potential partners because I had been taught that they were "dumb". All of my friends were thinkers, and so too have been most of my GF's, until the last one convinced me that Socionics' ITR's are actually true.
My Feeling, dual ESI HS buddy actually told me that he didn't think he was very smart, and then he went on to get a PhD in Astrophysics and a job at a leading University. And honestly, I loved the guy in HS and I also thought he was smart, but he wasn't super smart. (In retrospect, he didn't make leaps of intuition, but he made progress by being thorough.)
When I'm out and about in the city and I wear the non-work clothes that I normally wear (which my son has stated make me look like an oblivious homeless person - very NT-ish), my duals completely ignore me.
When I put on a black T and grey jeans and a leather jacket, they start to look at me. At these times, I'm doing what I call my SLE imitation, but Se is Se, and that's what they seem to notice.
But dating is hard! Look at @Adam Strange ; so many years and he still hasn’t found an ESI wife. What if I end up like that?? Though, hmm, my mother has tried to set me up with girls, lots of whom were ESE. Seems to have thought they’d be a good match for me. I could ask her to do that — “hey Mom, can you try to set me up with someone who’s a lot like you?”
I can see that. Tbh I’m attracted to SLI women, but the personality/retentiveness that you mentioned is a dealbreaker. I don’t think I’d like to marry one; it would be a loveless marriage, I think. We’d at best enjoy sitting next to each other on the couch or whatever SLIs do for fun before they shamble back to their bedrooms.
Oh yeah, for sure. When I used to envision myself being with a woman (that sounds so euphemistic, doesn’t it — just being in a relationship with one, I mean!) — I tended to imagine someone pretty similar to me. ESEs are not really the first type of person to come to mind when I envision a “perfect” match for me, though I can actually see it. They encourage me to be more out-there, and their positivity and “nice”-ness are genuinely good for me. Usually. There are exceptions.
@Tallmo, continuing the thought I had earlier, when I spend too much time with my SEI I begin to feel drained. Like I’ve got to constantly amp up the Ne and be performative, and “bridge” these constant assumptions and thoughts that she brings up with Ne-Ti, which is fine in the short term, but isn’t in my nature to do constantly. It’s hard to explain. Like at everything in life, she wants these grand ideas that all fit together for her; everything has to be integrated into a grand worldview, maybe. Perfect for an ILE! Whereas I do better with ESEs constantly talking about ideas they’ve already formed — they seem more like they’re constantly asking for advice/refining of their ideas, which comes more easily to me.
On my SEI’s end, she’s expressed a feeling that nothing she does for me is ever enough. That if she brings me food, I’m appreciative, but don’t *seem* to properly appreciate the effort that went into it, and just want more in a few hours — a quality vs quantity type of caregiving, maybe.
Great post, @FreelancePoliceman.
That feeling of "being drained" by a person when you spend too much time with them. Definitely off-dual. Also, the feeling that you aren't giving an off-dual what they need. Very true.
For what it's worth, I haven't experienced either of those things with duals. I can spend time with them and not get tired. I seem to simply want to delve deeper into the activities of a dual, rather than avoiding them. And they seem to always be doing more for me than I expected. And what they do for me is usually exactly what I need.
Any particular reason you are hard avoiding dating a woman like your mother? Lol. You don't have to answer right away. Take your time to think about it.
As for why I still haven't found an ESI wife:
It has only been about three or four years since I learned of the concept of duality, and I only confirmed it to my satisfaction in the last year or so. Before the end of the last LSI GF experience, I wasn't sure that Socionics was able to predict ITR's. Now I'm convinced that it can, at least within the expected error bars.
It has also taken me the standard four years to get over a long marriage. Almost everyone has a "rebound" stage after a relationship ends.
And now that I'm awake and thinking clearly, I find me here on the cold hill's side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdTp1d8SZVI
And it's not as if I haven't found Duals that I would marry. I think I could get along very nicely with several of the women that I have met. However, the Duals whom I have met have been too young or too ignorant of what they need, just as I was, to consider me seriously.
And the Duals who do seem to be willing to look at me are very old. Most of them have not aged well. I mean, I loved my ESI grandmother, but I didn't want to marry her.
I've also gotten more particular as I've aged. I was married to my ex-wife for many years, and I remember thinking in those first few years that I was the luckiest man in the world. But I wouldn't marry her today, because of all the things I've learned since then. La Belle Dame Sans Merci, indeed.
So you, Freelance, are in a better position now than I was then. You both know what the theory says, and you have the opportunity to put the theory into practice with a wide selection of desirable mates, who are also into you.
But Adam is older than you (I assume), and dating gets harder as time goes by and all good ones are taken.
I found duals pretty fast when I was new to socionics and wanted to date. Just through an online dating site. We spent a summer together. It wasn't that good for some personal reasons, but that's precisely why I got a better understanding of duality. Because duality is an objective phenomenon. The basic chemistry was always there. She was Creative subtype. I later met other (and more compatible) duals through social dancing.
At one point I and a LII friend of mine were "dual-hunting" together. I remember when he had just met an ESE at a dance and they were talking. I had to leave quickly because they totally occupied the conversation. No need for me anymore. The opposite thing happened when he had been on a date with an ILE and I also met her. Suddenly she and I were talking and he was the outsider.
It's almost a technical thing. You might not have anything in common, but your reactions and interaction become natural. They just flow.
But I'm not trying to tell you to leave your gf. If I were you I would probably ask her to marry me. Activation is compatible and all people have flaws.
Good description. I feel the same with LIIs. They drain me and pull out too much Fe from me.@Tallmo, continuing the thought I had earlier, when I spend too much time with my SEI I begin to feel drained. Like I’ve got to constantly amp up the Ne and be performative, and “bridge” these constant assumptions and thoughts that she brings up with Ne-Ti, which is fine in the short term, but isn’t in my nature to do constantly. It’s hard to explain. Like at everything in life, she wants these grand ideas that all fit together for her; everything has to be integrated into a grand worldview, maybe. Perfect for an ILE! Whereas I do better with ESEs constantly talking about ideas they’ve already formed — they seem more like they’re constantly asking for advice/refining of their ideas, which comes more easily to me.
My own view on duality right now is that it can be fantastic chemistry and a bliss. But it can also be deceptive because the chemistry kindof takes over and makes you forget that there is maybe not so much real human connection and understanding. (It can be, but not always). I think it is best to look for someone with a decent socionics relation (same quadra + semidual) but someone whom one can genuinely relate to, not just socionically but in a more general way.
Last edited by Tallmo; 12-21-2019 at 11:16 AM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I agree with the bolded part. Duality is definitely a feeling that can take over and make you forget that the two of you might not have much in common.
The LIE-ESI duality is basically based on work, in the sense that both LIE and ESI value work and value a helpmate. (Probably Alpha dualities are based on mutual relaxation.) And as the duals get older without being dualized, they grow further and further apart in their work equivalencies, so joining forces becomes more and more of a problem.
I think that the most ideal situation is where the duals meet before they start their careers, and thus they can grow and progress in step with each other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBGO_OBp9y8
Harry SLI
I can't take this anymore
And I'm almost pretty sure
I've been here before
Socioville Discord: https://discord.gg/yAfc4ZU
I had a "brief" three month interaction with an ESI-Se propably normalizing (idk how this makes sense at all tbh) and so/sp six enneagram.
I'm harmonzing Lie-Ni and one sx/so enneagramm.
She was a massive pain in the ass and was basically having trouble with her boyfriend so she was screening me for being the better option. I was too naive to realize this because i was deep inside Stratis duality description an just thought she needed time just as described.
It was a lot of ping-pong and on and off like its common with Beta and Gamma but it was different from my other duality experience with an sp/sx dual with unknown enneagram and maybe creative subtype.
It was no fun, we were hooked into eachother propably by our suggestives while not matching at all. She is very much into social status and being a six heavily relies on what her peers say.
Me being a sx/so one I am very nonconformist, restructuring society on a cultural level which means that i cause a lot of controversy and am considered a persona non grata by society.
So it was a horrible match, it was not fun at all; i still hold a grudge since i realised that her reason for leading me on for three months and not meeting up with me was probably not her ne-polr but the fact of her being in a relationship (which she told me but i was to naive and blinded by my idealistic approach so i assumed she ended her relationship when she was bringing me back to pursuing her)
I felt like crap for the whole period and lost a lot of valuable time to look for other women, she still somehow managed to deal with close psychological distance and seems to have worked responsible with what i have told her which has been pretty intimate.
She was not horrible at all even though she had a lot of opportunities but she was quite insenstive and selfish with her approach.
Not sure if this blogpost really on topic but i want to say that bad duality really does suck.
We still can't manage to hate each other and she seems to have a crush on me too after all of this, but even though i still feel good around her i on some level strongly dislike her for her machiavellistic and ruthless social climbing attempt that left me with 3 wasted months and a lot of emotional pain, anticipating and waiting for her while she was probably getting fucked by some other guy mildly taking notice of all of this.
So, guys, even though it's a dual, if you don't feel good or appreciated the way you are don't do it.
Last edited by Itsme; 12-17-2019 at 09:13 PM.
Hmm if you mean valuing in terms of a partner, then I think it probably has more to do with upbringing, self-perception and social roles than with a socionic type. There are a lot of material, social and spiritual expectations placed on partners in our (to a large degree) monogamous societies, which have nothing to do with psychology. Duality seems to be something that happens to you more than something you look out for because you value it(at least with non-socionists). It just means psychological compatibility, and I know a lot of people who value other aspects, like cultural background, status, intelligence or physical beauty above that in a partner. At the end of the day however, duality is the more comfortable relationship.....a dual is what you need more than what you value, I guess!
In addition, some socionics/enneagram related things I perceive could get into the way of duality:
- a lot of people that grew up with opposite quadra values will look for them to a certain extent in a partner
- sometimes people marry the person they want to be(they look for what they think they miss in themselves, like their Polr/supervisor) or search for IEs that they repress because of a very strong subtype, like Si-SLIs marrying Te-LSEs
- instinctual stackings are important
I agree. He values Se + Ni. He doesn't value Si and Ne => He's not SLI
@Itsme, I get it. I had a few dates with an ESI-Se who was e6 and so/sp. I got along with her very well, she was attractive and wanted to have kids, which for me is perfect, and she was totally focused on her social contacts which, along with her being sx-last, was a deal-breaker.
My ex-wife is an sx-last. I'm not doing that again for anything.
In your case, if you can't trust her to fuck only you, then you should walk.
I've had contact with a number a duals and 2 have really gotten on my nerves and pissed me off, one is mildying annoying but because of enneagram, and one I get along real well with so much that it was shocking when we had a moment where we did not get along. As far as the rest it's mostly peaceful relationships. I def think duals can lose respect for each other easily.
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