Description of INFj

[Beautiful sky]

I know you were trying to sort of get me to choose between the 2. And I'm saying these descriptions are a mixture of MBTI INFP and INFJ so I relate to both because I mostly relate to MBTI INFP anyway.

Function wise tho I do not relate to Ni first, Ne ignoring, Fe, And Se suggestive.

4. Altruism as an ideological component of the EGO program of Dostoevsky.

Thus, the EII's goodwill and niceness are not unlimited. Altruism, as any other psychological function, has a certain purpose and limits (its own limit of environmental expediency and viability). It cannot be directed against the carrier of this program and threaten his own survival or undermine his own well-being. An "altruist" won't give up the last crumbs of sustenance; he won't share something of which he has very little because this will make him vulnerable and nonviable. There is a limit to self-sacrifice for any person. This limit is regulated not only on conscious level but subconscious level as well, on the level of the most basic instinctive and psychological programs. Thus an altruist can share only that which he has in excess, or that which he is able to acquire in excess from others, making them work towards some output and then stimulating them towards unlimited self-sacrifice.

Altruism, as the ideological component of the evolutionary ethics of relations of Dostoevsky (+Fi), is quite rational and does not contradict the pragmatism of these types, but to the contrary makes it even easier to accept and partake in it. It is a popular role model for imitation: representatives of this dyad readily get involved in various charitable activities, in organization of which the EII has no equal among other types. The EII, like no one else, knows how to entice people to the most extreme (and transcendent) concessions, motivating them to give up the most needed and necessary, especially if he has promised such concessions to someone else on their behalf. Those who agree to make a contribution will comply and obey their "guarantor" not wanting to disappoint him and put him in an "awkward position." And this is one of the reasons why Dostoevsky is considered to be the Auditor/Supervisor of the entire Socion: he can allow himself any sort of coercion against anyone, he can control and direct of actions of others against their will ("work over their head"), meanwhile positively framing his intents thereby safeguarding himself from criticism and being completely convinced of his own infallibility and rightness.

The LSE, of course, is not put off by all these "ethical capabilities" of Dostoyevsky. In everyday matters, the altruistic program of EII (+Fi) very adequately combines with the program of "heightened pragmatism" of LSE (+Te) – with his aspirations to constantly increase the technical potential, to improve the process of production, to perform the job with maximum output, methodically and with high quality (+Te) in critically short periods of time (-Ni).
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

[Lord Pixel]

4. Altruism as an ideological component of the EGO program of Dostoevsky.

Thus, the EII's goodwill and niceness are not unlimited. Altruism, as any other psychological function, has a certain purpose and limits (its own limit of environmental expediency and viability). It cannot be directed against the carrier of this program and threaten his own survival or undermine his own well-being. An "altruist" won't give up the last crumbs of sustenance; he won't share something of which he has very little because this will make him vulnerable and nonviable. There is a limit to self-sacrifice for any person. This limit is regulated not only on conscious level but subconscious level as well, on the level of the most basic instinctive and psychological programs. Thus an altruist can share only that which he has in excess, or that which he is able to acquire in excess from others, making them work towards some output and then stimulating them towards unlimited self-sacrifice.

Altruism, as the ideological component of the evolutionary ethics of relations of Dostoevsky (+Fi), is quite rational and does not contradict the pragmatism of these types, but to the contrary makes it even easier to accept and partake in it. It is a popular role model for imitation: representatives of this dyad readily get involved in various charitable activities, in organization of which the EII has no equal among other types. The EII, like no one else, knows how to entice people to the most extreme (and transcendent) concessions, motivating them to give up the most needed and necessary, especially if he has promised such concessions to someone else on their behalf. Those who agree to make a contribution will comply and obey their "guarantor" not wanting to disappoint him and put him in an "awkward position." And this is one of the reasons why Dostoevsky is considered to be the Auditor/Supervisor of the entire Socion: he can allow himself any sort of coercion against anyone, he can control and direct of actions of others against their will ("work over their head"), meanwhile positively framing his intents thereby safeguarding himself from criticism and being completely convinced of his own infallibility and rightness.

The LSE, of course, is not put off by all these "ethical capabilities" of Dostoyevsky. In everyday matters, the altruistic program of EII (+Fi) very adequately combines with the program of "heightened pragmatism" of LSE (+Te) – with his aspirations to constantly increase the technical potential, to improve the process of production, to perform the job with maximum output, methodically and with high quality (+Te) in critically short periods of time (-Ni).
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

Well here it says it's not self sacrifical to the point of exhaustion or losing themselves in helping other's.

Delta altruism is, if I have extra then I can give away some. Which is something I believed everybody thought before socionics.

Yea I remember this description, it makes EII sound so nasty, like a smiling weasel tax collector.

[Beautiful sky]

Well here it says it's not self sacrifical to the point of exhaustion or losing themselves in helping other's.

Delta altruism is, if I have extra then I can give away some. Which is something I believed everybody thought before socionics.

Yea I remember this description, it makes EII sound so nasty, like a smiling weasel tax collector.

Still you said “I am not very altruistic.
”

Followed by “You are delicate, kind and full of attention to others. You try to show your compassion for others with actions as well as with words. Your understanding of people and life experiences always help you to find your place in society. You are prepared to spend time, energy and effort helping people with real need“

You probably should look into another type that has some access to Fi

[Lord Pixel]

Still you said “I am not very altruistic.
”

Followed by “You are delicate, kind and full of attention to others. You try to show your compassion for others with actions as well as with words. Your understanding of people and life experiences always help you to find your place in society. You are prepared to spend time, energy and effort helping people with real need“

You probably should look into another type that has some access to Fi

I'm not self sacrificially altruistic and I'm not altruistic without personal care for a cause. And I've always naturally thot if I have extra that's when I can give some away. Even b4 socionics.

How can you be Fi and have full attention on other's? That sounds Fe to me. How can you have bottled up emotions and show compassion for other's with words? That sounds Fe to me, at least for the most part. My Fi is constantly searching for it's place in society and does not find it. And I am prepared to help people I care about with a real need and a need I care about, not just people and needs in general. The saintlyness of EII I do not relate to. I relate to the concern for ethical behaviors, the protection of ethical treatment of other's, the paying attention to deep bonds between people, the protection of traditions, the psychological distance and taking strong moral stances.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm not self sacrificially altruistic and I'm not altruistic without personal care for a cause. And I've always naturally thot if I have extra that's when I can give some away. Even b4 socionics.

How can you be Fi and have full attention on other's? That sounds Fe to me. How can you have bottled up emotions and show compassion for other's with words? That sounds Fe to me, at least for the most part. My Fi is constantly searching for it's place in society and does not find it. And I am prepared to help people I care about with a real need and a need I care about, not just people and needs in general. The saintlyness of EII I do not relate to. I relate to the concern for ethical behaviors, the protection of ethical treatment of other's, the paying attention to deep bonds between people, the protection of traditions, the psychological distance and taking strong moral stances.

Because having my full attention on others allows me to give what EII was built for-moral support

[Beautiful sky]

Moral support is “just be present, just be around me to listen to me speak.”

[Lord Pixel]

Because having my full attention on others allows me to give what EII was built for-moral support

Idk how I can be so fully focused on other's while constantly paying attention to what is important to me. Unless that person is super important to me, then yes I can be focused on another and what is important to me all at once.

Moral support is “just be present, just be around me to listen to me speak.”

You mean the other person needing that right?

[Beautiful sky]

Idk how I can be so fully focused on other's while constantly paying attention to what is important to me. Unless that person is super important to me, then yes I can be focused on another and what is important to me all at once.




You mean the other person needing that right?

I go on my moralizing from time to time when something comes up to me like “it’s wrong that that person did this or that.” My husband listens to me and since he understands morals and his values align with my own he often takes over the conversation which is fine with me.
Yes others need you to be quiet and listen. Lend an ear a presence.

[Lord Pixel]

I go on my moralizing from time to time when something comes up to me like “it’s wrong that that person did this or that.” My husband listens to me and since he understands morals and his values align with my own he often takes over the conversation which is fine with me.
Yes others need you to be quiet and listen. Lend an ear a presence.

Now this is more repeatable to me.

[Beautiful sky]

Idk how I can be so fully focused on other's while constantly paying attention to what is important to me. Unless that person is super important to me, then yes I can be




You mean the other person needing that right?

I still don’t see you as INFj. That you need to even ask what moral support is. That you even wonder what your role is or Has been all your life till now

[Lord Pixel]

I still don’t see you as INFj. That you need to even ask what moral support is. That you even wonder what your role is or Has been all your life till now

I didn't have to ask what moral support is, the way you worded you post sounded like you wanted people to listen to you, so I had to clarify. I knew what you meant and yea I do that often myself. And I don't wonder whether my role is moral support, but that isn't some like some established role in society, my struggle to find my "role" in society is more me trying to find the place where I do valuable work that also financially supports me. So I still haven't found that "thing" I provide the world. As far as friends and sometimes even family yea sure I'm the quite guy people talk to when they want someone to listen and provide some insight into what they might be going through, or simply to just listen yea.

[Breather]

I’m not a leader and mentor as EIE are and I don’t care for having an eye on that. I’m happy being the role of the mother and friend to my husband.

Also this thread is a good example of how Ni in beta works you should read it before spewing out type suggestions without understanding of what functions mean

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1329489

No no, I agree you're EII, and not EIE, what I meant was the ENFJ MBTI description, have you ever considered that before? ENFJ can be EII especially if e2.

[Breather]

@Beautiful sky my original comment was

"I think it's possible for a ENFJ 2 to be EII in socionics" by ENFJ I meant mbti ENFJ is possible for you, whilst there is a strong chance that mbti INFJ is likely for you

[Beautiful sky]

No no, I agree you're EII, and not EIE, what I meant was the ENFJ MBTI description, have you ever considered that before? ENFJ can be EII especially if e2.

Mbti ENFJ seem EIE to me

[Breather]

Mbti ENFJ seem EIE to me

I guess not all, it varies for a extroverted NF type in mbti like ENFJ and ENFP, from alpha SF to delta NF to gamma and beta
Most ENFJ MBTIs are probably EIE and IEI you're right but there's other types associated with it too

Not sure what reasoning I could give for it other than that MBTI and socionics are 2 different concepts/theories I guess

[Beautiful sky]

I guess not all, it varies for a extroverted NF type in mbti like ENFJ and ENFP, from alpha SF to delta NF to gamma and beta
Most ENFJ MBTIs are probably EIE and IEI you're right but there's other types associated with it too

Not sure what reasoning I could give for it other than that MBTI and socionics are 2 different concepts/theories I guess

ESE score INFJ; any type can score INFJ in mbti I think

[Breather]

ESE score INFJ; any type can score INFJ in mbti I think

Yeah you're right

[Breather]

My point doesn't necessarily refer to what socionics type scores what MBTI type on test but rather that there are different socionics-MBTI combinations. an MBTI INFJ-SLI socionics is possible

[Rebelondeck]

@Lord Pixel
"My Ne is way too all over the place to be super organized" - Ne by itself cannot create disorganization; uncontrolled input causes flitting from one thing to the other, which isn't typical for EII.
"unless I create some easy way to." - Efficiency (the ideal) tends to be very XII but effectiveness (shortest path) seems more of an IXI goal.
"Nirvana sounds weird af to me" - I meant the term to refer to places away from it all where all expectations have been met so there's nothing left to do.
"Embarassed after they lost control of what," - Some seem to have inner LSEs that get out infrequently but when they do, the scene can be really out of character."
"I am embarassed easily but mostly because I said something stupid or someone caught me saying something stupid." - This is highest on the LII's list but I thought uncontrolled outbursts were highest for EIIs; I stand corrected.
"Not the best at cutting ppl down," - Cutting down referred to verbal abilities that are somewhat surgical in nature and being able to use them has more to do with confidence.
"Also wish I was more direct." - Again, this has more to do with self-confidence.

Note that most of my exposure to INFjs has been in work environments; I didn't form close or lasting relationships with the few that I've met socially. This likely skews my view.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Lord Pixel]

@Lord Pixel
"My Ne is way too all over the place to be super organized" - Ne by itself cannot create disorganization; uncontrolled input causes flitting from one thing to the other, which isn't typical for EII.
"unless I create some easy way to." - Efficiency (the ideal) tends to be very XII but effectiveness (shortest path) seems more of an IXI goal.
"Nirvana sounds weird af to me" - I meant the term to refer to places away from it all where all expectations have been met so there's nothing left to do.
"Embarassed after they lost control of what," - Some seem to have inner LSEs that get out infrequently but when they do, the scene can be really out of character."
"I am embarassed easily but mostly because I said something stupid or someone caught me saying something stupid." - This is highest on the LII's list but I thought uncontrolled outbursts were highest for EIIs; I stand corrected.
"Not the best at cutting ppl down," - Cutting down referred to verbal abilities that are somewhat surgical in nature and being able to use them has more to do with confidence.
"Also wish I was more direct." - Again, this has more to do with self-confidence.

Note that most of my exposure to INFjs has been in work environments; I didn't form close or lasting relationships with the few that I've met socially. This likely skews my view.....

a.k.a. I/O

Wow, yes that is very true for me, and very embarrassing, I know what you mean by control now.

My Ne does cause me to lose focus and procrastinate on responsibilities in favor of doing something more interesting. Organization being a less interesting responsibility.

Also the most surgical cut downers I've seen are high Ti users, as they use painful truths and exacting language to really get underneath someone's skin, from my point of view as a non Ti user that is. I will say EII can attack someone's psyche in a surgical way yea, knowing ppl's deeper cares and deeper flaws.

And as far as sounding stupid, does one feel pain or experience a sense of inadequacy when critiqued on their role function? I think I might also feel critique on my DS function. Like just low T in general be critiqued can be embarrassing. Much more frequently embarrassed by this as it has higher chance to happen, and uncontrolled outbursts rarely ever happen, but when they do the embarrassment is longer lasting.

[Rebelondeck]

.....Also the most surgical cut downers I've seen are high Ti users, as they use painful truths and exacting language to really get underneath someone's skin, from my point of view as a non Ti user that is......

The way that this aspect of my behaviour has been described by more than a few (word gets around) is that my words skewer the body and the chair too if they happen to be sitting down. EIIs get under the skin.

a.k.a. I/O

[ooo]

And as far as sounding stupid, does one feel pain or experience a sense of inadequacy when critiqued on their role function? I think I might also feel critique on my DS function. Like just low T in general be critiqued can be embarrassing. Much more frequently embarrassed by this as it has higher chance to happen, and uncontrolled outbursts rarely ever happen, but when they do the embarrassment is longer lasting.

The literature says we are bothered by the critiques to our Role, Polr and Mobilizing (Ti, Se and Si for an EII), critiques to our DS should be taken gladly... but I doubt it's really so either/or.

[Beautiful sky]

this is how bad mbti tests are


Te (Extroverted Thinking) (50%)
your valuation of / adherence to logic of external systems / hierarchies / methods

Ti (Introverted Thinking) (30%)
your valuation of / adherence to your own internally devised logic/rational

Ne (Extroverted Intuition) (75%)
your valuation of / tendency towards free association and creating with external stimuli

Ni (Introverted Intuition) (70%)
your valuation of / tendency towards internal/original free association and creativity

Se (Extroverted Sensing) (0%)
your valuation of / tendency to fully experience the world unfiltered, in the moment

Si (Introverted Sensing) (60%)
your valuation of / focus on internal sensations and reliving past moments

Fe (Extroverted Feeling) (65%)
your valuation of / adherence to external morals, ethics, traditions, customs, groups

Fi (Introverted Feeling) (80%)
your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
based on your results your type is likely - infp

[ooo]

that's not an mbti test, also it's also pretty strange you scored 0 on Se when all the other functions are so high.. so you probably cheated (btw lowest functions are supposed to be our DS)

[Beautiful sky]

that's not an mbti test, also it's also pretty strange you scored 0 on Se when all the other functions are so high.. so you probably cheated (btw lowest functions are supposed to be our DS)

i'm in my head past and future never present so does make sense

[Lord Pixel]

The way that this aspect of my behaviour has been described by more than a few (word gets around) is that my words skewer the body and the chair too if they happen to be sitting down. EIIs get under the skin.

a.k.a. I/O

Yea, definitely don't stop at the skin.

[Lord Pixel]

The literature says we are bothered by the critiques to our Role, Polr and Mobilizing (Ti, Se and Si for an EII), critiques to our DS should be taken gladly... but I doubt it's really so either/or.

I just feel any critique to T is painful being low T myself. But yea critique to those functions def makes sense for sure. Especially PoLR, it's like WOO!

[Lord Pixel]

this is how bad mbti tests are


Te (Extroverted Thinking) (50%)
your valuation of / adherence to logic of external systems / hierarchies / methods

Ti (Introverted Thinking) (30%)
your valuation of / adherence to your own internally devised logic/rational

Ne (Extroverted Intuition) (75%)
your valuation of / tendency towards free association and creating with external stimuli

Ni (Introverted Intuition) (70%)
your valuation of / tendency towards internal/original free association and creativity

Se (Extroverted Sensing) (0%)
your valuation of / tendency to fully experience the world unfiltered, in the moment

Si (Introverted Sensing) (60%)
your valuation of / focus on internal sensations and reliving past moments

Fe (Extroverted Feeling) (65%)
your valuation of / adherence to external morals, ethics, traditions, customs, groups

Fi (Introverted Feeling) (80%)
your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
based on your results your type is likely - infp

That's a function test tho, those are crap.

As far as MBTI descriptions, I actually relate alot more to them then socionics descriptions.

[Rebelondeck]

MBTI descriptions tend to be superior at describing the outward appearance of information processing (a third-person perspective) whereas it does indeed do a poor job at describing the actual processing. Socionics has classifications that can dovetail into a proper model of an information control system although it hasn't done so yet - and MBTI is a clue that it hasn't. Someone needs to look at both together so as to come up with a unifying theory.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Sol]

literature says we are bothered by the critiques to our Role, Polr and Mobilizing

the most annoying is the critique in nonvalued weak regions as those regions are prefered to be ignored and meanwhile are weak - you don't want to hear about that and can't protect good there

people with ego regions of your superego may annoy and supress your psyche even by their presence and neutral communicating, by talking with other where show their thinking styles. in superego it's noticable the most. the most weird people I saw were among them. not all superegos are perceived as much bad, but the worst by perceptions are from there

conflictors are said as the worst because Augustinavichiute has decided the weakest is "polr". but it's not such by Jung. suggestive-role is the weakest and most traumatic for me were remembered Fe influences. and you do not even expect they'll influence on you so much badly as this is the least conscious region where you understand yourself the least

[Lord Pixel]

the most annoying is the critique in nonvalued weak regions as those regions are prefered to be ignored and meanwhile are weak - you don't want to hear about that and can't protect good there

people with ego regions of your superego may annoy and supress your psyche even by their presence and neutral communicating, by talking with other where show their thinking styles. in superego it's noticable the most. the most weird people I saw were among them. not all superegos are perceived as much bad, but the worst by perceptions are from there

conflictors are said as the worst because Augustinavichiute has decided the weakest is "polr". but it's not such by Jung. suggestive-role is the weakest and most traumatic for me were remembered Fe influences. and you do not even expect they'll influence on you so much badly as this is the least conscious region where you understand yourself the least

This actually explains my attitude towards Ti. As it does cause the most anger in me. PoLR critique causes anger as well, but Ti critque or Ti style criticisms or dark humor are the most traumatic, it is the only time in my life where I am willing to get physically violent over words. In other words Ti - them's fighting words.

[ooo]

@Sol

it seems like none of us agree with socionics 100%, that's good, I agree to disagree

[Sol]

@Sol

it seems like none of us agree with socionics 100%, that's good, I agree to disagree

Socionics has levels of the theory. The logical basis on which the further interpretation is done. The closer to core theory - the more trust you may to have.
In case with Mobilizing function, - the more core is the conception of values and strenghts. If is said that Mobilizing is comparable with superego in acceptance of critique - it's doubtful as it's different groups of functions. To trust that it needs additional and good explanation or you to see that yourself in own experience. In my experience I do not remember bad feelings when I'd got alike "you do not understand him and understeemate his abbilities" - I'd just got an interest to such view and that fits to the theory. But I'd felt annoyed when someone said bad Ni prognoses for what I do - as I often doubt in any outcomes and do not like think or to feel much about future. If someone would say me "anything will be ok" - I'll not take it seriously without arguments, while Se would be glad to hear that alike child, would become inspired.

[ooo]

everything will be ok is Ne, but it's ok if it disturbs you, that mobilizing can be a pain in the ass, according to the literature.. aha

personally I can't recall anyone who's giving me "conflicting vibes" in real life, I tend to find something good about people and my relationship with them, I won't take a tea with anyone, but it happens sometime that I hang out with people I wouldn't want to spend time with, and then I reconsider them.

instead there are things that bothers me a lot, with everyone, but the closest I am to someone, the more they bother me.. but it depends on my mood too, and by how much the person infront of me is being an ass..

I like people helping me out with math stuff, in solving tekkie problems (I've always said "I wish I had a hacker in my life!") and I don't mind if someone takes care of my basic needs as well -food, cleanings, clothes -
but realistically... some of those things I have to provide them myself : (