Te dual-seeking of INFjs and ISFjs what it looks like

[Beautiful sky]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through. Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

[Lord Pixel]

Well damn, don't give all our secrets away.

[Irime]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through.

What do you mean? I've noticed this in Fi-doms (mainly ESIs, I don't know a lot of EIIs, so I think their weak intuition is also a factor) but more often the opposite. Instead of trying to do something by figuring it by themselves, they will seek some 'expert' to explain everything (even if it means they will waste time) which is basically this:

Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

Things I noticed:
- they find someone knowledgeable and using their Fi they build a relationship with that person, building a dependence system (which for me as a non Fi-valuer is a little uncomfortable and just... ugh)
- they will do it with a lot of people constructing a whole network of people whom they can pester about anything Te related
- in the academic setting they will complain about professors whom they deem untrustworthy and unprofessional because that one time they didn't have that one piece of information, were unavailable or for some other reason didn't want to share their knowledge
- unwilling to figure out a problem by themselves, they prefer when the solution is presented to them, like "No, I'm not even looking at this exercise, I have to ask the teacher what to do". Then they will analyse the solution and always follow it unless confronted with an exception which causes them to freak out (I think it's normative Ti)
- they prefer know-how to know-why. Once I was tutoring one ESI and all my Ti attempts at explaining the problem failed. He just wanted to know what to do
- weak at differentiating more and less useful pieces of information e.g. when learning a language they may buy a ton of books and using all of them instead of one or two good with a good studying plan. They will learn, but it will take longer (unless they become discouraged and abandon it)
- when solving a problem they may apply too much precision which often adds a ton of unnecessary work like using a caliper instead of a ruler

[FDG]

What do you mean? I've noticed this in Fi-doms (mainly ESIs, I don't know a lot of EIIs, so I think their weak intuition is also a factor) but more often the opposite. Instead of trying to do something by figuring it by themselves, they will seek some 'expert' to explain everything (even if it means they will waste time) which is basically this:


Things I noticed:
- they find someone knowledgeable and using their Fi they build a relationship with that person, building a dependence system (which for me as a non Fi-valuer is a little uncomfortable and just... ugh)
- they will do it with a lot of people constructing a whole network of people whom they can pester about anything Te related
- in the academic setting they will complain about professors whom they deem untrustworthy and unprofessional because that one time they didn't have that one piece of information, were unavailable or for some other reason didn't want to share their knowledge
- unwilling to figure out a problem by themselves, they prefer when the solution is presented to them, like "No, I'm not even looking at this exercise, I have to ask the teacher what to do". Then they will analyse the solution and always follow it unless confronted with an exception which causes them to freak out (I think it's normative Ti)
- they prefer know-how to know-why. Once I was tutoring one ESI and all my Ti attempts at explaining the problem failed. He just wanted to know what to do
- weak at differentiating more and less useful pieces of information e.g. when learning a language they may buy a ton of books and using all of them instead of one or two good with a good studying plan. They will learn, but it will take longer (unless they become discouraged and abandon it)
- when solving a problem they may apply too much precision which often adds a ton of unnecessary work like using a caliper instead of a ruler

It's not like every retarded classmate has to be ESI.

[Etar]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through. Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

You sure that's not Ti seeking?

The individual has great admiration for people with well-developed systems of views. He especially likes clear and concise explanations of concepts, rather than a lot of background information about them that is not directly pertinent. He wants his actions to make sense, and thus needs external assurance that the conceptual understanding behind them is correct. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become flustered and unable to act rationally at all.

and not Te

The individual is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to the individual towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the individual; facts and explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions. For the same reason, the individual avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable or simply untruthful information. The individual tends to neglect to think about the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him directions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. The individual admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile.

[Beautiful sky]

What do you mean? I've noticed this in Fi-doms (mainly ESIs, I don't know a lot of EIIs, so I think their weak intuition is also a factor) but more often the opposite. Instead of trying to do something by figuring it by themselves, they will seek some 'expert' to explain everything (even if it means they will waste time) which is basically this:


Things I noticed:
- they find someone knowledgeable and using their Fi they build a relationship with that person, building a dependence system (which for me as a non Fi-valuer is a little uncomfortable and just... ugh)
- they will do it with a lot of people constructing a whole network of people whom they can pester about anything Te related
- in the academic setting they will complain about professors whom they deem untrustworthy and unprofessional because that one time they didn't have that one piece of information, were unavailable or for some other reason didn't want to share their knowledge
- unwilling to figure out a problem by themselves, they prefer when the solution is presented to them, like "No, I'm not even looking at this exercise, I have to ask the teacher what to do". Then they will analyse the solution and always follow it unless confronted with an exception which causes them to freak out (I think it's normative Ti)
- they prefer know-how to know-why. Once I was tutoring one ESI and all my Ti attempts at explaining the problem failed. He just wanted to know what to do
- weak at differentiating more and less useful pieces of information e.g. when learning a language they may buy a ton of books and using all of them instead of one or two good with a good studying plan. They will learn, but it will take longer (unless they become discouraged and abandon it)
- when solving a problem they may apply too much precision which often adds a ton of unnecessary work like using a caliper instead of a ruler

right, should have caught advice first on instructions lol

in wanting to know what to do dii jump in and do it without fully having read instructions

[Beautiful sky]

You sure that's not Ti seeking?


and not Te

right they need the one figuring out what to do the right way to tell them before they start otherwise they use intuition to figure or wing it. not talking about concepts we're talking about practical physical things

[Etar]

right they need the one figuring out what to do the right way to tell them before they start otherwise they use intuition to figure or wing it. not talking about concepts we're talking about practical physical things

You take concept as intuition only. When an LSI also has an idea of how something is and should be put together or done, which means he has a concept that he can convey to you.

[Rebelondeck]

Nobody actually seeks an IE - not consciously nor subconsciously. People with problems generally seek out others that they think can help them solve it. T-type rationalization usually produces a body of output or perspectives that would be seen as useful to F-types, and vice versa, but note that F-types wouldn't normally seek out incompetent T-types unless perhaps they themselves were incompetent. One EII that I know seeks out a particular LII for everything mechanical because her LSE husband hasn't the aptitude. Now, Ijs do have an easy time plugging into Ejs because of their tendency to rationalize overtly and that they're similarly output oriented. Rather than 'seeking', I would agree with 'needing', but few people know what they really need let alone seek it......

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

You take concept as intuition only. When an LSI also has an idea of how something is and should be put together or done, which means he has a concept that he can convey to you.

no i don't need to understand concepts i need to understand how to polish a table

[The Reality Denialist]

Lots of SEI's are capable of putting things together just by telling the logical relations... I'm even wondering if they could couple quantum mechanic and general theory of relativity if you tell them right words. Funny how it works out. EII's want preferably written instructions.

[Beautiful sky]

Lots of SEI's are capable of putting things together just by telling the logical relations... I'm even wondering if they could couple quantum mechanic and general theory of relativity if you tell them right words. Funny how it works out. EII's want preferably written instructions.

Write instructions are awesome

I taught myself how to drive stick shift car from writing instructions online. The best instructions. It must have been written by an LSE

[Aylen]

no i don't need to understand concepts i need to understand how to polish a table

Is this an example or do you really not know how to polish a table?

[Beautiful sky]

Is this an example or do you really not know how to polish a table?

Driving a stick shift car was the real example

[Aylen]

Driving a stick shift car was the real example

Heh, ok, I was going to tell you to spray it then use circular motions to wipe it, like I was taught.

My step dad taught me to drive a stick shift. I taught my EII sister which was hilarious looking back. Neither of us found it very funny at the time but she learned. I kept getting frustrated with her stalling out. My step dad was a better driving teacher than I was.

[consentingadult]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through. Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

I agree with the second sentence, but not with the first. When it comes to performing task at which they are inexperienced, the EIIs I meet in my work, are generally quite passively waiting for someone to lead the way. Jumping in head first is more of an IEE kind of approach.

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...-function.html

[ooo]

I'm starting to think BS might be a Se lead, everything she says is based upon her direct experience of the world around her, pushes her will on others, doesn't submit to people, too "busy" to formulate a proper argument for her actions (Ti Polr?).. hmm..

self fulfilling prophecy, when you type everyone you don't like the type you are... projection in psychology.

[FarDraft]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through.

This sounds like weak Ni since "thinking something through" is essentially imagining the likely consequences of actions, which is related to Ni.

Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

Yes, this is true. "Dostoyevsky prefers that his partner would express his opinion not in the form of ruminative contemplations and reflections, but as direct, explicit, accurate formulations, and would give him concrete advice and proposals on what he should do."

Perhaps I'm overextending here, but your posts where you briefly explain something for no apparent reason (like this one) seem to usually be done for the purposes of proving that you are XYZ. Is your declarative statement here secretly a call for external information, making us think you're Te seeking?

EDIT: I was going through older posts and wanted to update this one. I stand by my claim that "thinking something through" has to do with Ni. However, I do think that the statement has both a colloquial and a literal interpretation. My original comment has more to do with the colloquial saying since heeding caution and calling for prudence is often done by saying something along the lines of "think it through". Those are Ni themes. Literally interpreted, the statement could be related to Ti since "thinking something through" could be seen as logically deducing the consequences of a system.

[Aylen]

Just saw this in the description of EII by Filatova.

Ti – Role function. EII thinks over all her actions beforehand, defining concrete goals or imperatives that are of primary importance to reach. This approach does not always succeed due to her emotionalism which frequently pushes or pulls her away the original direction she planned to follow. Nevertheless she tries to organize her activity into a specific system, bring about order, which requires vast efforts from her.

[Beautiful sky]

Here’s another EII friend “Thanks to verbal support from Mze and Juse, at the tender age of 34, I just successfully put air in my car tire for the first time in my life. ”

My husband would have put air in her tires lol

[Beautiful sky]

Just saw this in the description of EII by Filatova.

Yes well that’s Ti role
Organizing is not an issue
EII can avoid the mental pull by more determined actions like saying “I’m going to do this “ no matter what and if the internal emotions arise where she’s feeling about a relationship or is upset after a disagreement she should still dedicate to completing a task.

[Beautiful sky]

Just saw this in the description of EII by Filatova.

Aylen

That quote was gold

I woke up this morning and said to myself “I should go to work early and I can come back home early; I can take baby for a long walk by 3:30 and be home by 4:30”

[Beautiful sky]

Logical thinking: how long does it last? how much use is it going to get? is it something I need right this second ?can I find it for a better price?

[Beautiful sky]

So my husband and I are at the grocery store and I ask him if he wants Brie. I go and weed through all the Brie and narrow my choices to two and now can not make a concrete decision. INFJ “often needs help to narrow them down into concrete forms” I take the two choices to my husband and ask which one and we chose the best one yummy

[FreelancePoliceman]

So my husband and I are at the grocery store and I ask him if he wants Brie. I go and weed through all the Brie and narrow my choices to two and now can not make a concrete decision. INFJ “often needs help to narrow them down into concrete forms” I take the two choices to my husband and ask which one and we chose the best one yummy

You want help choosing bread?! Why not just get the cheapest, or if you don't like the cheapest, then the next cheapest??

I'm not calling you stupid or anything; I'm just seriously confused why anyone would feel indecision choosing a type of bread.

[Beautiful sky]

You want help choosing bread?! Why not just get the cheapest, or if you don't like the cheapest, then the next cheapest??

I'm not calling you stupid or anything; I'm just seriously confused why anyone would feel indecision choosing a type of bread.

quality

[The Reality Denialist]

and the worst part of Te seeking is when I have done something and EII wants to do it as well. Then I reveal my super hairy process involving n+1 tools... yikes. It is not meant for others to see. It is like not only getting your hands dirty but rest of the environment as well. Very creatively messy and unique... let's call it magic.

So this the ILE way recombining various stuff until everyone is lost. I wonder how ESI's respond to SLE methods?

[FreelancePoliceman]

quality

So get bread that seems to be of the desired quality! If you can’t decide, get the cheapest!

[Beautiful sky]

So get bread that seems to be of the desired quality! If you can’t decide, get the cheapest!

ok

[The Reality Denialist]

but if you have an adventurous mind and not totally broke you have to give the other option a change next time or in near future.

[UDP]

Jumping head first into doing something not having taught it through. Seeking clarity and explaining on how to do something

The only jumping EIIs do without "thinking it through" are offering empathy to other peoples situation at times, but even that is rather calculated.

I would suggest Te seeking is more being rather sure about how they feel they want a situation to be but rather looking for pragmatic means to enact it or bring about associated changes. "Here is what I feel/want to feel, but how can I create functional flows of activity that actually support/enable it?"

The less advanced Fi doms don't realize or haven't developed their ability to see the changes can be made or that there are actual factors influencing these flows of supporting activity. ESI have a hard time with changing context, EII have harder time with what is unchanging regardless of context.

[Lord Pixel]

The only jumping EIIs do without "thinking it through" are offering empathy to other peoples situation at times, but even that is rather calculated.

I would suggest Te seeking is more being rather sure about how they feel they want a situation to be but rather looking for pragmatic means to enact it or bring about associated changes. "Here is what I feel/want to feel, but how can I create functional flows of activity that actually support/enable it?"

The less advanced Fi doms don't realize or haven't developed their ability to see the changes can be made or that there are actual factors influencing these flows of supporting activity. ESI have a hard time with changing context, EII have harder time with what is unchanging regardless of context.

I don't see that big a difference between what you said and what Maritza said. "functional flows" and "how to do something" both seem the same, how do I get what I want.

As far as the less advanced, yea 1D Te/Se problems seem to be the reason for that.

[UDP]

the difference is that @Beautiful sky is a goofball

[The Reality Denialist]

he he. Causal deterministic cognition.

OK. I know it now, let's see... Do we have to deal with details? The answer is yes. Luckily one could build a huge database on those details and once those are in place and just do it.

[Beautiful sky]

the difference is that @Beautiful sky is a goofball

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

In ESIs it's seems like being impressed when people are practical and efficient and effectively logical. "Ooh he actually knew how to fix a tire!" or start a fire in the woods etc.

In EIIs it seems to me more being impressed with having some sort of "Law" or higher code that aligns with their strong morality. (or trying to change & re-adjust the laws/rules/systems/work rules more to match with their Fi)

Gammas don't do this sort of thing quite as much ime because their Se/Ni gets in the way of that.

[Alomoes]

It's not like he's describing a retarded classmate.

I once taught a person how to clean their phone. I don't understand how that worked, but it did. It got me to clean my phone. Not dual though, in all likelihood.

[ashlesha]

You want help choosing bread?! Why not just get the cheapest, or if you don't like the cheapest, then the next cheapest??

I'm not calling you stupid or anything; I'm just seriously confused why anyone would feel indecision choosing a type of bread.

hahaha i can stand so long deliberating about bread. i'm slightly favoring wheat. but do i want something that says flaxseed? hmm. that one has good labeling but i don't like the color..

[Alomoes]

I could help you choose bread given a constraints and such, as stated before, it is incredibly interesting, because I want to.

[Lolita]

For ESI-LIE, it's like a dutiful, stand-by-your man, uptight, religious chick who's a doormat to a lousy gambler who lost all his money.
For EII-LSE, it's hardworking farmer's wife to a farmer who created an efficient farming technique/invention