ESE and EII illusionary/Mirage relations (ESFj and INFj)

[Beautiful sky]

My ESE sister and I always always always have problems with planning and communication when we start on a project together

[Beautiful sky]

To think that knowing Socionics would help my sister and I but it never fails we always have fights during the start of a project and we just had one yesterday. If we could only agree to not work together

[Chthonic Daydream]

what is your question

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

[Bento]

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

engine must make video for correct type identification

[Rebelondeck]

There must be significant baggage contributing to the disconnect because these two types can usually communicate and or find some common ground even though they may have completely different lifestyles and perceptions. The examples that I've seen of this relationship have all been civil......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

ESE and EII is one of those Mirage relationships where the Erotic Attitudes are in synch, so it would normally be pretty good, especially between members of the opposite sex.

[ooo]

agreed^

does anyone remember reading somewhere (I think it was some Gulenko.. ?) that rational types are better suited with their semi-duals, while the irrationals are better suited with their mirage?

I remember reading so, and although EII and ESE are both rationals, I've experienced a very good compatibility with the ones I've met, I used to have a ESE bestie, one of the best friends I ever had.

[The Reality Denialist]

Talking with mirage is like talking to a void while getting some nice echoes.

[MrsTortilla]

What is the nature of the fighting? How does it start and who instigates it?

[Beautiful sky]

What is the nature of the fighting? How does it start and who instigates it?

I am planning a party for my daughter. I tell her and she said she wants to help and asks what she can do. I told her to take it easy and not take up too much work. She says “why don’t we host it at a local park, I GO there all the time.” I agree and she says “we can go reserve early in the morning.” I get a call one week before the party that the space is for rent with the city.” I am scrambling to find a new place having trusted her that she was right and having told Everyone to go there. Last minute I decide she texts me “why don’t we go to this other city.” I tell her off for being no help and sending me on a wild chase for a park and being no help when I trusted her to be through. She takes no responsibility and says she’s not the one planning this. I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

[MrsTortilla]

I am planning a party for my daughter. I tell her and she said she wants to help and asks what she can do. I told her to take it easy and not take up too much work. She says “why don’t we host it at a local park, I GO there all the time.” I agree and she says “we can go reserve early in the morning.” I get a call one week before the party that the space is for rent with the city.” I am scrambling to find a new place having trusted her that she was right and having told Everyone to go there. Last minute I decide she texts me “why don’t we go to this other city.” I tell her off for being no help and sending me on a wild chase for a park and being no help when I trusted her to be through. She takes no responsibility and says she’s not the one planning this. I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

That sounds incredibly frustrating. I can relate because I go through similar situations with my ESE mother-in-law. She will make a plan and then not have made sure it’s actually possible and you will find out at the last minute. One year she told me she wanted to cook my favorite foods for my birthday dinner. I told her she didn’t have to, but she insisted. So I told her what foods I love (simple to make) and cleared my birthday night and didn’t schedule anything with other friends or family. Then the night before my birthday she calls and says nonchalantly that she’s not making me dinner after all because she has plans with another friend. Arrrrgggh! This kind of thing is typical for her. I feel for you.

[Beautiful sky]

That sounds incredibly frustrating. I can relate because I go through similar situations with my ESE mother-in-law. She will make a plan and then not have made sure it’s actually possible and you will find out at the last minute. One year she told me she wanted to cook my favorite foods for my birthday dinner. I told her she didn’t have to, but she insisted. So I told her what foods I love (simple to make) and cleared my birthday night and didn’t schedule anything with other friends or family. Then the night before my birthday she calls and says nonchalantly that she’s not making me dinner after all because she has plans with another friend. Arrrrgggh! This kind of thing is typical for her. I feel for you.

Thank you. Finally someone who understands me. I think it’s because you and I like Te planned actions. My husband would have obsessed and planned every aspect until completion.

[MrsTortilla]

Thank you. Finally someone who understands me. I think it’s because you and I like Te planned actions. My husband would have obsessed and planned every aspect until completion.

Yeah, I think when someone says they will do something we just naturally assume Te is going to be implemented. I know this about my ESE MIL but I keep hoping she’ll be “normal” and then I keep getting disappointed... haha funny but not!!

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah, I think when someone says they will do something we just naturally assume Te is going to be implemented. I know this about my ESE MIL but I keep hoping she’ll be “normal” and then I keep getting disappointed... haha funny but not!!

The added element of being in a close family ties in a traditional ethnic situation makes it hard to build some distance without offending her so I’m always hopeful and accept the help and suggestions but I always forget to take it with a grain of salt and to do the thorough work myself. I expect it then I know how she is a big dreamer who gets swept by the sudden senses. She was actually suggesting to make two drinks and jello and knowing her she would have showed up with one and said she didn’t have enough time to do the others. We expect reliability. Do as you say. It was the same way during her bridal shower. I would ask her to please go pick her center pieces and she would come back with ideas and I would say “we are getting short on time you have to decide” the decision would fall on me and I would send a cousin with her and it turned out well in the end however in the end she had everyone doing her work and she’s would drink have a merry time joke and sit on people’s laps and kiss them and joke. No serious work ethic. I was my sister’s supervisor one brief time and I couldn’t get her to file and do her work. She would get on the phone with her boyfriend and flirt all day. I am not that stern so I would pass her desk and say “you should call him back this filing will only take you 30 minutes” that was out of a four hour work day. Still I am patient so I tolerate her teenager years of needing emotional relationship with a boyfriend and I was supportive but she is just too much to handle for me sometimes

[Beautiful sky]

She just wants to be a lovable bonvidant

[Capitalist Pig]

I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

your sister sounds fun, she single?

[Beautiful sky]

She gets enthusiastic over a new fun idea, avoids unpleasantness of work and planning, hides during a conflict and can’t brush it away, responsive to help when she’s the one who’s supported to be helping and just wants to flirt and Be merry. I’m so the opposite. I’m serious, I like planning, I don’t stay mad or upset for long, I keep the occasion and appropriateness in mind (probably due to my aristocracy nature). And I don’t want others to help if possible because I always feel like I am burdening others

[Beautiful sky]

your sister sounds fun, she single?

She’s married C-pig but her LSI husband does nearly everything for her. She’s been a stay at home mom for 20 years

[Lord Pixel]

There was an attractive girl I met at Starbucks one time I'm sure was ESE. She was a stranger but I ended up getting her phone number.

It all started when she came to a table I was sitting at, the table was empty except for me she asked me if it was ok for her to sit at the table. I told her yea. When she sat down a couple seconds went by and then I asked her what would have happened if I told her no she can't sit at the table. She laughed and responded and then shortly we were full blown into a conversation filled with jokes and details about her life. I found out where she went to school, what project she was working on where her parents were from, what she was doing tomorrow. She found out that I was drawing people around us so she asked me to draw a picture of her and then gave me puppy dog eyes, she was Fe-ing essentially, which was weird for me to see someone express puppy dog eyes to someone they just met. After awhile I told the girl I would have to leave once my ride arrived. She told me I should just stay at the cafe with her as a joke, again I felt like she was sort of coming full on a little bit without revealing interest. All this had happened before she even found out my name. We kept talking and periodically I would look out the window to check if my ride showed up. After the girl seen me do it a number of times she yelled " DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE?!" and she yelled this with an uncomfortable smile. I was so shocked how someone could think it was ok to take that tone of voice with someone they just met, or I guess this was my Fi completely misunderstanding her Fe reaction, and I looked at her very confused and she seemed to look like she was trying to calm down with a smile. I responded confused but she seemed as if that behavior is not weird for her and like she almost could not even control it. My guess is that's the nature of spontaneous Fe, maybe she didn't even know she would respond that way. So that was one moment where her Fe shocked me. Also she showed me a video that she thought I would be interested in and I told her "Oh yea I seen this before." And she said to me "Awwww, you're supposed to say you've never seen this before." Is that Fe? Social etiquette or protocol, polite norms? Either way I was confused that she wanted me to lie to her to be polite. This was a ramble but these were some of the first impression issues I had with an ESE I randomly met, and I think they were maybe Fi/Fe issues.

TLDR- Met ESE at starbucks, her Fe shocked and confused me.

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah, I think when someone says they will do something we just naturally assume Te is going to be implemented. I know this about my ESE MIL but I keep hoping she’ll be “normal” and then I keep getting disappointed... haha funny but not!!

I have another story if you want to hear it

[MrsTortilla]

I have another story if you want to hear it

Sure.

[Beautiful sky]

Sure.

So I don’t know how she has GPS in me but it so happens when she needs me I seem to be at the right place. I am at Michael’s retuning crafts art stuff and she texts me “my son has a project please go to Michaels and get clay.” Mind you I know how half ass she is so here I start asking all the relative questions “what kind? Air dry or oven” she responds “air”. I ask “how big is the project and how many bricks?” She says one” I ask “what is he making?” She says a model of a man. It now rings in my head that she has probably not helped her son make the model so I ask “has he made the model?” I’m right and she says “NO” I ask what is he supposed to make it out of she says whatever as long as it looks like a gesture of a man. I ask her if a formed maniquin would help (it’s made of wood). She says that would make it easier. I ask which size (there are three) her son decides on the middle one. I gather all the relevant information about how to affectively apply the clay on wood so it doesn’t peel off. I buy all the necessary things and take them to her son. If I wasn’t like this she would call and ask me to go back to the store to get more stuff and not help her son complete the project. He texts me the following day “I got an A ” GOD HELP ME

[MrsTortilla]

So I don’t know how she has GPS in me but it so happens when she needs me I seem to be at the right place. I am at Michael’s retuning crafts art stuff and she texts me “my son has a project please go to Michaels and get clay.” Mind you I know how half ass she is so here I start asking all the relative questions “what kind? Air dry or oven” she responds “air”. I ask “how big is the project and how many bricks?” She says one” I ask “what is he making?” She says a model of a man. It now rings in my head that she has probably not helped her son make the model so I ask “has he made the model?” I’m right and she says “NO” I ask what is he supposed to make it out of she says whatever as long as it looks like a gesture of a man. I ask her if a formed maniquin would help (it’s made of wood). She says that would make it easier. I ask which size (there are three) her son decides on the middle one. I gather all the relevant information about how to affectively apply the clay on wood so it doesn’t peel off. I buy all the necessary things and take them to her son. If I wasn’t like this she would call and ask me to go back to the store to get more stuff and not help her son complete the project. He texts me the following day “I got an A ” GOD HELP ME

Frustrating! Sounds like she expects you to figure all this stuff out for her. Maybe you should cut off the help for your own sanity. (?)

[Beautiful sky]

Frustrating! Sounds like she expects you to figure all this stuff out for her. Maybe you should cut off the help for your own sanity. (?)

She would go hysterical and appeal to the emotions of everyone in the family and I don’t like the drama. I’d rather do it and not hear anything else

[Moou]

As long as they aren't my obvious conflictor or quasi-conflictor, IDGAF. Socionics types can't explain everything, and life's way too short to limit yourself to one out of 16 types based on a single personality theory. That's dumb.

[MrsTortilla]

She would go hysterical and appeal to the emotions of everyone in the family and I don’t like the drama. I’d rather do it and not hear anything else

Even if you had really good excuses when she asks? Like you want to but you can’t for a good reason?

[consentingadult]

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

If a train leaves Dresen at 6:43:52 PM, it is 3 minutes and 52 second overdue, which means the engineer must be an SLE who doesn't take orders from anyone, not even from LSI time table planners, i.e. he doesn't give a fuck about adhering to the time schedule and implements his own. It then logically follows that the engine must be IEI.

[consentingadult]

My ESE sister and I always always always have problems with planning and communication when we start on a project together

I'm currently working at a company restaurant where the chef is ILE and the sous-shef is ESE. It's a complete nightmare and total communication breakdown. They are good chefs when it comes to their cooking skills, but they suck as managers and I'm frustrated by their incompetence in planning and efficiency. Especially the ESE takes his incompetence out on the recipient of his half baked orders/instructions. Less experienced cooks clearly expose his lack in management skills, which is why he needs experienced cooks by his side, just to save his ass, so his incompetence isn't brought out in the open.

So what happens: while I normally excel in exceding expectations, I purposely slow down and start giving less and less, not giving a fuck anymore. Fortunately they hate my guts as much as I do hate theirs, so next week I'm rid of these retards.

[Adam Strange]

If a train leaves Dresen at 6:43:52 PM, it is 3 minutes and 52 second overdue, which means the engineer must be an SLE who doesn't take orders from anyone, not even from LSI time table planners, i.e. he doesn't give a fuck about adhering to the time schedule and implements his own. It then logically follows that the engine must be IEI.

A reversal of the ideal arrangement. Usually it is the forward thinking and insightful IEI guiding the irresistibly powerful SLE engine.

[Beautiful sky]

Why doesn’t my sister respond to things in terms of facts.

Fact: Los Angeles water system is extremely reliable and safe to drink right out of the tap.
She: I am getting a filtration system installed.
Me: we have the best water system
She: yeah but it tastes funny
Me: it has minerals. Minerals give a funny taste but our bodies need minerals.
She: I want it to be clean
Me: it IS clean

[Beautiful sky]

So we had a huge family party on Friday. My SEE niece thought she saw a little blood on my nieces shirt and points it out to my ESE sister. My ESE sister has a hysterical anxiety attack runs to her car starts shouting and screaming. My husband approachs me and asks what happened. I told him she went from happy to hysteria and ran to her car and affected the environment of fun so much that she got everybody else to run after her to sooth her. My husband looks at me and says “I could not live with that! From happy to screaming.” I told him to try to ignore it. She comes back in and I go over and sit with her. Nothing is wrong with her child. She puts her to sleep and I take my niece and lay her down in a comfortable baby stroller. Yeah welcome to living with an ESE. You never know when she’ll go from happy joking to screaming

[Delilah]

*expired*

[Bento]

what do you mean by
"have a need to control/manipulate the space around them (and around me!) in ways that I find excessive and wish to halt. "

What exactly have you told them? They need to understand the source of your discomfort and you need to give them alternatives to how they can behave around you without causing you stress. Usually they'll do what they can but only if it's reasonable. So make it reasonable.

edit: "reasonable" in the sense of explaining your position with Ti. It's not an implication of you being stupid

[Sol]

any S tends to control S region as space
if you have S too (seems such as SEI) then you compete
also if that "ESE" is Se alike SEE - then you being SEI have higher irritation by the way they contol space
also any human who you do not like much by IR or other reasons may annoy you higher by anything, including space control

[Delilah]

@Bento: I've seen/noticed physical space interference with several ESE i know, like they will interfere in your personal space. Most recently this happens with my landlady, who keeps showing up at my door at random times even tho legally she needs to notify me and can't just expect to be let in simply because i'm being polite. I told her she needs to let me know in advance and not just crowd my space at random, this seemed to go over her head. That's one simple example, hope it makes sense, and i'm sure i'm being reasonable about it.

[Bento]

@Bento: I've seen/noticed physical space interference with several ESE i know, like they will interfere in your personal space. Most recently this happens with my landlady, who keeps showing up at my door at random times even tho legally she needs to notify me and can't just expect to be let in simply because i'm being polite. I told her she needs to let me know in advance and not just crowd my space at random, this seemed to go over her head. That's one simple example, hope it makes sense, and i'm sure i'm being reasonable about it.

You definitly are. That's terrible of your landlady
Holding your ground and not letting her in unless she "plays by the rules" is the only way I can think of. But that's easier said than done because I'm not in your position.
Imo Alpha's can be a bit sneaky it the sense that they bend the rules. ESEs can do that, too. I don't know whether they are not aware of this or just selfish. I'm completely powerless against that.
What would happen if you insist on being notified before you let her in? Is she someone who would kick you out?

[para]

I had two classmates of those types who got along very well together - but EII could often get tired of the influctions of the ESE, who seemed to lack the control of the procedural situations and really was more in line with how people ''felt''. So a mirage relation. EII clearly noticed the lack of T more in ESE than the other way around, at least from an external POV.

[Rebelondeck]

ESEs are usually quite attuned to other people's needs; although they're often tenacious and do like to control the day-to-day agenda, they're normally quick at recognizing boundaries. Most ESEs will tell you quite clearly from where they're coming and to where they're going while EIIs have a tendency to expect that others will divine everything out of the ether (those imperceptible EII hints). EIIs usually are the directors of these relationships while ESEs the workhorses, but EIIs need to state their requirements in very concrete terms and avoid preaching or giving ultimatums out of the blue, which can be challenges for them. These relationships have good potential but the difficulty is usually one-way communication.....

a.k.a. I/O

[silke]

what this relationship is like, with her being ESE and him being EII

[Marep]

what this relationship is like, with her being ESE and him being EII

He's not EII, not at all