It isn't always possible to get out of a PoLR hit, because some people will simply insist that your PoLR is everyone's responsibility. I can see why the person might respond to "I'm not responsible" by taking it into their own hands (an HA hit) - if the person isn't determined to make you deal with the issue one way or another, you might be able to respond to that by defending your personal space (in which your HA is satisfied) and maintaining enough distance that that isn't disturbed.
Any universal recipe for staving off PoLR/HA hits would require a universal recipe for making people agree with you.
EDIT: Most of the clueless responses - shrugging, "I have no idea," "I'm out of my depth" will convince people that you can't be expected to deal with the issue. "Pet peeve" is a handy way to express things you don't want to be around without saying that you're right. It can make you seem like a moron, but, well, most people don't bother morons.
How about your conflict with the EII in your family (your mother-in-law, if I remember correctly) over that girl (your daughter?)'s birthday party? We only had your perspective, but it did come up that the reason she was causing trouble was several relationships between family members - her bad relationship with the other mother, her good relationship with her husband, etc. These clumsy, absolute relationships conflicted with your more careful attention to the girl's feelings - she was quite willing to allow emotional trouble that would blow over eventually in order to act according to the clearer, more solid relationships. This is much like how a type will ignore methods that would be better in a given situation because they don't match the rest of the system.
In this situation, the only HA that I know of was yours. As it turned out, you were more frightened than the situation warranted, because the girl liked having two parties. You, however, saw that an benefit (to the girl) that you were counting on was being dismissed without respect for , and knowing of no way to replace it with another benefit, attempted to set things back the way you wanted them.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I find that the role function tends to be the one people are most consistently annoyed by. I think being that it is devalued, but also the most consciously prominent of the weak functions, it tends to provoke the most common negative reactions for people. It also shares the same temperament with our dominant function, meaning that they occupy a similar "space" in our consciousness; thus, having our role function activated or struck is more contradictory and invasive to our natural state.
PoLR/4th function is weaker and less valued, and therefore something we are intrinsically more averse to, but it is so peripheral to our natural state (being both weak and of opposite temperament to the dominant function) that it really just doesn't register most of the time. Also, the PoLR can function in the same "block" as the dominant function, whereas the Role cannot, meaning that even while it is weak and not something we pay much attention to, it does have relevance to our most natural focus, rather than being antagonistic to it. I think it is partly BECAUSE it is relevant, in terms of functional blockings, to the dominant function, that it can be such an embarrassment: the Role is something we pay less attention to because it is divergent from our prominent focus and generally seen as unimportant/irrelevant, but the PoLR has relevant overlap with the dominant function, meaning that a hit to the PoLR is, in some way, not only pointing out our weakest spot, but also reflects poorly on our dominant function, making us look or feel weak in something we are normally confident in. Having your strengths and confidences undermined is much more threatening than simply having your weakness exposed.
Yeah. I think using someone's role function can provoke a more aggressive reaction, whereas hitting their PoLR just creates a kind of passive vulnerability. Maybe this is also because the leading function and role function deal with a lot of the same things but do so in diametrically opposed ways, so being exposed to your Role for drawn-out periods of time can really, really grate on you.
EIE-Ni
Yeah that's what I was getting at with the temperament thing.
Ok, gotcha.
Also, maybe this is obvious, but people are more likely to be overconfident in their Role function. So they feel comfortable pushing back when other people are using it, but being exposed to their PoLR leads to a sense of mixed bewilderment and vulnerability -- or, like you mentioned, just plain obliviousness.
I think you could say the same for elements 5 and 6, too. People more consciously and "aggressively" seek their HA, and their drive to experience their suggestive function remains in the background.
EIE-Ni
Right. Role is in many cases another way of doing something you already do. For me, it's something like, "you already focus on how the vague energy/vibe in the room makes you feel, now focus on how the crap you have cluttered all over your room makes you feel." It requires that I stop focusing on x, which is my normal state, and start focusing on y, which is an abnormal and annoying state to be in. Another way of saying this is that role is more annoying because it forces you to take your attention off your main function. I think that was a good observation on your part, Gilly (which I just parroted).
Also agreed that polr is just not in your zone of focus (peripheral is a nice term for it). I just don't notice practical details. I'm not even actively hostile to them; I'm only actively hostile to being forced to deal with them, especially the expectation that dealing with something so unpleasant to me is the natural thing for everyone to do. But of course, we all assume that our ego and superid functions, especially the leading and dual-seeking, are the natural way to go about things. This is the source of the most pain in conflict relations, I think. I'm interested to further examine the idea that the potential relevance of the fourth function to the leading (as it is blocked with the leading in the comparative/kindred type) is a further source of its annoyance. Honestly, I've never quite understood how Te works in ILIs; it doesn't quite make sense to me. Perhaps an analysis of a comparative pair would yield some insight into this? I'd do it, but it's way too late and I have way too much work to be on a socionics site at all right now. But you know, 16types = crack, apparently. Except it doesn't mess up your teeth/face/lips.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Yeah definitely, it's like you temporarily lose all interest in your role, and default instead to your observing function. With the hidden agenda (mobilizing function, which is a much better term!) being fulfilled, the role function becomes energized and you become more expressive of it, and the polr.
Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 09-17-2015 at 12:38 AM.
Hm. Seems like "observing" and "ignoring" are antonyms.
do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?
i tend to see my Role function as something that i *need* to care about, but it gets tiring and boring quick if i have to spend too much time on it, especially when it's for someone who is requesting it (i.e. an Ne ego). in those cases i feel more stress, because then my weakness is on display for others to see.
Gimme an example of an Se-Polr hit
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
Wait so Role is the "UGHHH do I have to ... ._. fine, but only because it doesn't necessarily conflict with my own agenda enough for me to avoid it, and it seems to help my social condition enough" while PoLR is the
"o _ o 10011?"
"UGHHH do I have to ... ._. fine" is right so far as it goes (begrudging acceptance you might say), but I'm not sure that it doesn't conflict necessarily. I would say that part of the reason it is more natural is that as a Bold function it corresponds more closely with our normal energy level.
Another idea I have been toying with is that somehow the effects of superego functions are similar (actually elements that share intro/extroversion in general). Ti and Fi both involve reducing information for example, and Fe and Te both involve activity. So perhaps this is why they are more psychologically comfortable, since they indirectly make the leading function's task easier. Functions of the opposite "version" tend to increase the work we have to do.
This was somewhat of a PoLR hit...
Actually, this wasn't a PoLR hit at all... in fact, I even found it to be somewhat helpful...
Well, that's just scary and nihilistic...
--
Hmm, I'll try to hit PoLR with my Fe and Ni. I'm not really sure how I do it, though:
Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. Can't you understand how he feels? How can you be so insensitive? How can you not understand what he's FEELING? Do you not have any feelings yourself? Oh and by the way, you come across like a total fool, just so that you know.
Ni: Well, isn't it OBVIOUS that it would turn out that way? How can you not know? I thought that it would be obvious to anyone... I mean, what you did was just so stupid, dangerous and thoughtless... you should have thought about it better.
I don't really know how to do Ni, lol.
An SLE looking directly at me and pointing to my acne scars and saying "you had acne here and here" I respond very badly to this type of criticism. I look away and it brings feelings of sadness and awareness which makes me feel inadequate. My duals don't do this shit. My duals want to fix things so they will reference to solution saying "drinking more water will make your skin less dry" and "I saw this person putting sour cream all over their face and it cleared their acne; here do you have some? I have some I can give you to try" My duals
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Tbh I agree with @thehotelambush on this. It seemed Fi to me too. Since it sounded like a focus on the personal feelings of people.
Well focusing on the feelings of people is Fe... and actually, I think this is a fairly typical behavior of creative Fe trying to "regulate" the emotional atmosphere and punish those who are offending. But SEIs are more likely to do this, because they're Negativists and are more critical.
Not necessarily. When a dynamic changes TeSi base types are just as likely to notice people's feelings but also want to keep their feelings under control as they subject everything to control, and they institute pleasantness with the use of their Si creative.
I'm concerned about people's feelings and I'm EII
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Focusing on the feelings of people is Ethics, Fe approaches it differently than Fi, Fi deals with the personal attitudes towards something/someone, and Fe with a more "general" stance on them that's not directly linked to personal preferences, hence slightly less personal compared to Fi. Example of the latter from an EIE explaining:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1167012
In your example, the part about focusing on whether you have any feelings was really Fi to me. Could be your Fi demonstrative, with some Fe intent in the expression, of course, it's slightly ambiguous for the rest of what you said.
I think I would generally agree, but I'd have to understand Fi better. I'm reading sources but it's still not totally clear to me. I think Fi is about how you feel about someone, and how someone feels about you.
But I don't necessarily agree that Fe is more "general", I think that has more to do with intuition.
What I said explained:
"Do you not have any feelings yourself?"
Well honestly... I think a lot of Fe type say stuff like this, like "You have no feelings/emotion", and that usually hurt Te types because it makes them feel like robots.
I don't really think that it's a criticism of Fi, because it's not concerned with your attitude toward someone, but just having feelings in general, like happiness or anger.
Basically, it's disturbing to Fe types when others lack emotion.
Last edited by Singu; 01-28-2017 at 02:11 AM.
I said this in another thread but I thought it would be fitting to add here.
I actually think most clashing and fuss occurs between types who have contrary leading elements, like an EIE and an EII for example and perhaps even between mirage types as well.
The leading function is the most stubborn and outwardly directed function. When you have two people with contrary leading elements this can lead to never ending battles on both sides. Easiest example I can think of is Si vs Se. Se leads tend to willingly go around creating a ruckus which bothers Si leads. The Si lead tries to stop the Se lead from disturbing the peace but the Se lead won't stop because of the stubborn nature of the leading function. The Si lead won't stop trying to stop the Se lead either and this creates the perfect condition non-stop fuss and arguing. I could go on how this could apply to other contrary types as well.
Issues with the HA/polr don't happen the same way as this. The HA lacks the same sort confidence as the leading function to be able to openly oppose others who use the element contrary to it (polr). Its mostly only in situations where a person is expected to skillfully engage in their polr themselves that it becomes an issue between themselves and others.
It's like Ti vs Te.
It's hard to use wording that can't be misinterpreted, I didn't mean general in the intuitive way. Just less.. personal.But I don't necessarily agree that Fe is more "general", I think that has more to do with intuition.
I said it was slightly ambiguous because some of this depends on the actual presentation whether more Fi or Fe focused, which is especially seen well IRL. But that whole thing together is just really Fi focused to me because - if I were to be the recipient of the criticism - it's kinda questioning my own sensitivity about the personal feelings of mine and other people's. And that's absolutely Fi. Do you see what I mean?What I said explained:
Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. > Disturbing the emotion of others
Can't you understand how he feels? > Inability to read other's emotions
How can you be so insensitive? > Inability to understand other's feelings or disturbing the emotion of others
How can you not understand what he's FEELING? > Again, inability to understand other's feelings
So for example, where you talk of "disturbing the emotion of others" here is a good example of Fi, the way you put it, due to your linking emotion to the individual, makes me think of having to be very careful of all the different personal feelings. It makes me feel like I have to focus on each person as their own individual, with much sensitivity required to not upset them with something silly.
I hear this a LOT from Fi types and I see it as Fi criticism. It doesn't hurt me, I don't really care."Do you not have any feelings yourself?"
Well honestly... I think a lot of Fe type say stuff like this, like "You have no feelings/emotion", and that usually hurt Te types because it makes them feel like robots.
The Fe types will instead just do something with the atmosphere and I can react to that/enjoy that, and to that it's irrelevant whether I have enough focus on personal feelings.
Do you understand why I said this one was really really Fi?
That was really really not clear from your original writing, it was seemingly all focused on the feelings of the person as an attitude towards someone else's feelings. Again, that's Fi to me.I don't really think that it's a criticism of Fi, because it's not concerned with your attitude toward someone, but just having feelings in general, like happiness or anger.
None of your example mentioned externally expressed emotional states of happiness or anger.
No, then how would ExE dualize with LxI? I find it's truly disturbing to the Fi types only. In my experience Fe types don't criticize it, or they might joke about it, but no such serious criticism like the one you are talking about, they will just instead focus on getting things (emotionally) moving and I easily go along with it.Basically, it's disturbing to Fe types when others lack emotion.
I guess lack of receptivity, unwillingness to go along with it is what would be disturbing to Fe types and explicitly seen as "lacking emotion", maybe, I don't know, some Fe ego would have to chime in here.
Last edited by Myst; 01-28-2017 at 01:55 PM.
I find with LIEs real clashing occurs when it engages the Ethics elements just like Gulenko says about the relationship of Business vs Cold blooded types. That communication styles article (here) does also discuss Passionate and Sincere types together as having a lot of shit going on. Otoh, as long as it's a fully objective topic with the parties focused on problem solving, the Ti and Te get along decently well at least in my experience.
I did openly oppose my Conflictor before on Ni matters. I actually became incredibly stubborn and could not let go of the issue and blew up eventually. It was really important to me that we get on the same page with it. I'm definitely more flexible when it's just Logic involved when interacting with Te types. My Ni HA is hardly flexible lol.
But yeah I don't know what it would be like with Ni PoLRs, haven't noticed a conflict yet over Ni.
The way I think Te and Ti cause friction which each other is that the Te type tends to do whatever they think they need to do in order to get something done without bothering do it in a way that makes sense to those around them. The Ti type will then attempt correct the Te type to do things in a way he/she thinks makes more sense, but the problem is that the Te type has already decided for themselves how they are going to do the task. The Ti type gets annoyed that the Te type isn't listening and things escalate from there.
Last edited by Muddy; 01-28-2017 at 03:35 PM.
I dunno, I don't relate to that at all with LIEs at least. I don't correct people's way of doing things if I see they are coping with the task alright and it does not get in the way of anything else. Why should I care about the details of how they are going to do it if they have no problem sorting it out? LIEs usually have no problem with it.
Where I did have friction before was them wanting to take all control in doing some things but that's just competing over the same Logic related areas.
It isn't always 100% guaranteed that the Ti lead will recognize the Te lead's competence. To the Ti type it can appear that Te type is doing everything wrong all the way up until the job is finished. Sometimes a Te lead can succeed in doing what they thought need to be done, but can cut corners around areas the see as non-essential which can give the Ti base the wrong impression that Te type isn't doing something correctly. Being Te base also does not 100% guarantee they will not make mistakes or do something wrong. In such cases this can cause Ti types to get angry, especially if the mistake is due to the Te base not following standard procedures.