EIIs/INFjs and disappointment

[Kim]

These friends aren't people or rather LSE who are dating you so they behave differently

They don't behave like that with their partners either.

[Kim]

I can agree to disagree, but I don't like the stereotype that LSEs are controlling and socially incompetent because they are not.

[Words]

People are saying in this thread that LSEs are controlling and I am saying they are not and I am pointing out that, in my mind, controlling behavior is dysfunctional. That is not controlling, that is having a conversation.

Did you catch my edit?

Anyway I am saying that all relations have varying levels of control, as does society itself. What's not acceptable to you might be acceptable to someone else, to reiterate that part.

[Beautiful sky]

They don't behave like that with their partners either.

Uhhum...so you think. Furthermore you are promoting a rosie version of socionics by the disregard of every lse relational description that says they are

[Beautiful sky]

Did you catch my edit?

Anyway I am saying that all relations have varying levels of control, as does society itself. What's not acceptable to you might be acceptable to someone else, to reiterate that part.

Being controlling is acceptable to me because i can accept a controlling person

[Kim]

Did you catch my edit?

Anyway I am saying that all relations have varying levels of control, as does society itself. What's not acceptable to you might be acceptable to someone else, to reiterate that part.

I think I was pretty clear about what level of controlling I am talking about. Do you think it is healthy for a relationship if one partner takes control over the other's behavior/friendships/looks by badgering or bullying or giving ultimatums? That is the type of controlling behavior I am talking about.

[Kim]

Uhhum...so you think. Furthermore you are promoting a rosie version of socionics by the disregard of every lse relational description that says they are

I know they don't.

I have not come across a description that paints them as controlling in the sense you suggest.

Being controlling is acceptable to me because i can accept a controlling person

Fair enough.

[Beautiful sky]

I know they don't.

I have not come across a description that paints them as controlling in the sense you suggest.



Fair enough.

Then read more and I wi post descriptions to help you along on that path in the meanwhile read the one that i posted about making duality work

[Words]

I think I was pretty clear about what level of controlling I am talking about. Do you think it is healthy for a relationship if one partner takes control over the other's behavior/friendships/looks by badgering or bullying or giving ultimatums? That is the type of controlling behavior I am talking about.

Honestly it's difficult for me to say, some people like relationships with fighting and ultimatums and power play, to define their relationship as healthy or unhealthy calls for some sort of subjective judgement from what I can see.

[purpleowl]

People are saying in this thread that LSEs are controlling and I am saying they are not and I am pointing out that, in my mind, controlling behavior is dysfunctional. That is not controlling, that is having a conversation.

That isn't what I said. I said he protects you from people who use you.

Protection does not equal control in my mind. Respecting someone enough (or not) to allow them to make their own decisions isn't type-related IMO. I'm not saying that an LSE wouldn't have an opinion on the matter, but from there to actually taking the step to dissolve a relationship that isn't his is downright insulting (to me, anyway). If it works for you, great, but please don't question someone's type based on some ridiculous notion like this.

[Beautiful sky]

The role or one of the rples of an EII in the dual relationship is to help the LSE develop kinder qualities...now what d eff do you people think that is?

[wacey]

IDK Maritsa, a lot of time I find LSE giving me advice on how to be kinder?

"requesting information through the suggestive function"

[Beautiful sky]

I wanted to comment before but I had to think about it...
I think stereotypes in description are ok to use as a way of developing a general idea as to how a certain type may be, as long as people don't get too hung up on them. But I guess stereotypes are nothing new for people to get hung up on or abuse (eg. sexism, racism)...

...And like all LSE's are controlling. I really hate the term 'all' or 'every', especially when lumping groups of people together. A type description is just like a face composite, a generic person based on similarities observed between a group of people. But the face isn't of a real person, and it lacks any life experience

Not only do I think one should question if certain life experiences could make a certain LSE more or less controlling than what the descriptions suggests, but also what kind, and to what degree of controlling. One could imagine a stereotypical LSE from youth and imagine all the various scenario's or experiences that could change his/her orientation towards control (in addition to other stereotypes), whether to be more or less controlling as compared to the life of another LSE, such as being raised in a society, environment, or family, that strongly encouraged or discourage controlling behavior, being insecure, or having had someone break their trust in the past.

Not only do I think this could this be applied to control in LSE's, but in other generalized behavior found in the descriptions of other types as well. I think people could be 'more of this and less of that' just by life experience, parents, culture etc. Basically way too many factors to weigh in, which is why I don't get too attached to the type descriptions.

I suppose one could adorn the stereotypical face composite (metaphorical type description) of a type with all kinds of accessories to explain them, like enneagram, subtypes, and instincts. However, I think everyone that falls under the same criteria is still going to be bit different. So I think it's impossible to pigeonhole anyone to a Socionics type purely via exaggerated type descriptions ridden with stereotypes eg. everyone of a certain type being coined 'controlling'.
I prefer focusing on functions and vibes myself..Type descriptions are basically like a screwed up compass, if one chooses solely on those to compare people to, imo...

My bf is telling me to ignore you which I really should since you say a whole lot of nothing and oftwn don't make sense and frustratw me but I'll go ahead and ask why do you think archetypes are assigned to types if it's not ro help define which gives us a way to identify and understand

[Kim]

My bf is telling me to ignore you

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

[Beautiful sky]

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

He knows LSE are controlling

[Eliza Thomason]

I think, most of my family and friends would agree, that I'm pretty docile and that I have the tendency to rationalize people's behaviors and feel differently than what Ej types may, which would be to say "you're an ass hole so I'm going to be this way with you and I don't need to hear or think otherwise, which also allows people to see on the surface, and even to make formulas which would allow them to be linear in their approach such are LSE. Thus I have a tendency to not stick up. Give you an example. We went out for dinner today and the waitress seemed distant and wasn't giving us what we asked for for several times. My bf already determined that she was not a good waiter and that she wasn't doing her job therefore we weren't going to tip her and that was the end of it. I tried to reason with him. I said "you don't know where she's coming from; she could be tired, she could be intimidated by you; she could be listening to you but not hearing you." He had a formula already made up of "who deserves what when and according to what action." I could not break through to him. I tried to sneak in the tip because I gave her the benefit. There was a slight chance that the waitress was a terrible waitress but I wasn't going to oversee all the other things that could have been going on with her. My bf flew off the handle at me for not sticking to his decision. I tried to explain why and he didn't care. He had already determined X, and being linear, he was going to follow through with that. I let him because there's no point in arguing. I told him that I feel for her and what that few dollars would mean to her he said he'd been there and he understands but she didn't do her job so she shouldn't expect to get that tip…explained what tip was for etc. I told him I felt for her and he said "you should be feeling for me" lol I said that I did and I felt good that dinner was satisfying for him and that was what was most important. LSE are not good with people, it does do them well to take the advice of their dual

It's so funny to me that you're so willing to call this dysfunctional, so you must think all Te types are since they make formulas to judge people and their actions and cut people off even when those formulas are not announced to the other party…that is exactly what's happened in the past to so many people who meet Te types. This is why they are not good with people. So you think all Te types are dysfunctional if you think that this behavior is dysfunctional?

LSE are harsh straightforward controlling demanding difficulty because they are indecisive and all sorts of off the wall

Hmm, I have been following this thread not knowing what to make of it. Some of the statements you make of LSE - like being harsh, controlling and especially demanding are not consistent with my LSE "big brother" - the eldest of us 4 - who I totally sure is LSE and fits the descriptions of the various authors. One thing I am wondering is if your bf is not LSE. However, your comfort level is really there, so maybe he is, and its just the way you describe LSE that is not resonating with me. (I do feel he is not SLE, though - phew! - because if he was, the conflicts would have started by now).

My LSE brother is very independent and hardworking; always was. One of my early memories is our family renting a cottage with a private pond with a dock. My LSE brother was off by himself all the time, finding frogs, or fishing in a stream, and my SLI brother and I hung out floating on the pond or exploring the land. When my LSE brother joined us he was always in the lead, and always challenging me to do what they were doing, canonballs and chiding me into diving when I didn't want to. My brothers were all in scouts and LSE was the only one who made Eagle and there was never any question he would. He was industrious, always completing his homework or any task he was asked to do with no nagging. And he would do it well, like when we all did yard work I might dawdle; he was always moving, and would nag us to move, too. I guess he was the eldest child any parent would want!

As an adult he just happily forged on ahead accomplishing. He was not a straight A student but he got good grades, in challenging classes, and a good engineering degree. He has two jobs, his full-time engineering one and his many hours as a "pyrotechnic" and then serious exercising, like triathlon-related stuff. He raised his kids to be independent, too. They all are. He is bossy, I guess, but he can handle no. I have gotten mad at him for insensitivity sometimes, but not often and it does not last long. I have also made suggestions (not often, just sometimes) on how to be more considerate in how he says or does a thing, and he is always open to the suggestions, even seems to value it. He is always doing industrious things, like after a long days work and hard exercising spending half the night at a friends house helping his fix his motorcycle. Then getting up very early Saturday morning because that his favorite time to go to the farm market. And work all day on things like repairs at his rental, and making a dinner from all fresh foods from scratch for family and or friends.

I agree with @Kim's concerns, and also @Aylen that it seems he is controlling. Like the waitress example. I guess what I like about my SLI and I is that we can both passionately say we don't like this or things shouldn't be done that way, and we are both okay with the other not liking something. Like Kim and Aylen, I had experience with someone trying to control me and I know its not healthy and right. However, I realize we may be projecting our experience on you. Because you are not annoyed by it, and do not feel oppressed. Furthermore, the three of us are "P" vs. "J" and we just like openness and keeping our options open more. I think "P''s need some more space. "J"'s like to be more decisive and too much open-endedness is not as comfortable as it is to us. I think of my EII sis-in-law and all the tolerance I have seen her have for her SLE husband taking an insensitive lead on so many things. But for the most part (when she is not REALLY MAD about a thing he did) she is very tolerant of it, and I think she sort of actually likes the security of having him decide things for them. She is happy to "go along".

I think your words that you are using to describe your LSE are putting off alarms. How you mean it is not what is registering in our minds. "Controlling" and "demanding" - these are typical red-alerts for dysfunctional, the kind of dysfunction that people choose to live in, ignoring or justifying their own feelings inside that something is not right, and then over time realize they are beginning to go crazy because of it, and have been diminished and demeaned. But "take-charge, knows-his-mind, has strong opinions, prefers to be take the lead and "appreciates a team-member who wants to jump on board" - those descriptors are less "alarming" - and may be more what you really mean.

[wacey]

In a certain sense, many LSE are controlling, I agree with Maritsa. Its almost a game with that dual pair, its how they flirt I believe. I would replace controlling with the word presumptuous.

[purpleowl]

If you mean control as in liking to give instructions, then I agree. I personally don't see that as controlling, though, and quite like it. It removes the uncertainty I live with because of its matter-of-fact approach. It does not feel aggressive or with any intention to control or have someone submit, which is what I associate with the word "controlling". It is simply done in order to achieve an objective, with no power play involved. This is my absolute favorite thing about LSEs.

[Aylen]

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

Because he is just learning about socionics and duality? Just a guess...he might be an expert and long time socionics enthusiast. I can be controlling, so can my EII sister and LSI mom. The fun part is when we are all trying to control the same situation. Sometimes we end it in a standoff or one of us cries (only in very serious matters). An LSE would not stand a chance if he walked into one of those scenarios and would probably back out of the room slowly.



Edit: ftr, my EII sister doesn't mind her husband/s controlling some aspects of her life, except when it limits her freedom or effects our family in a negative way. She will fight for us and can be fierce. Other times I have witnessed her laugh at her current SLI husband's, very inappropriate, comments on other people and I want to slap her out of it. It goes against who she is and makes my stomach turn. I admit I am thoroughly confused by this behavior and it makes me think she is trying to support him but not in a way that makes him kinder or gentler.

[Aylen]

My bf is telling me to ignore you which I really should since you say a whole lot of nothing and oftwn don't make sense and frustratw me but I'll go ahead and ask why do you think archetypes are assigned to types if it's not ro help define which gives us a way to identify and understand

I don't know the statistics on LSE men being controlling. Maybe you do? I am not even sure how you are using the word "controlling". Lots of people can be controlling, of every type.

Why did you feel the need to insult her in your response? Maybe her not "making sense" has more to do with your comprehension skills?

[Kim]

If you mean control as in liking to give instructions, then I agree. I personally don't see that as controlling, though, and quite like it. It removes the uncertainty I live with because of its matter-of-fact approach. It does not feel aggressive or with any intention to control or have someone submit, which is what I associate with the word "controlling". It is simply done in order to achieve an objective, with no power play involved. This is my absolute favorite thing about LSEs.

That's not what I would consider controlling. I am thinking more along the lines of
- giving instructions AND getting irritated and impatient when they are not followed
- trying to control what the partner should look like/wear and getting irritable when partner decides to wear something else
- scolding and belittling
- treating the partner like an incompetent child
- pouting, bitching, or giving cold shoulder when demands are not met because partner made up his/her own mind about what is best for him/her

Those are not LSE traits.

[Beautiful sky]

read and learn, seriously!

Some time later LSE begins to feel that the IEE is as if playing around with him, being clever and coy, and starting up some intrigues - and for what reason? Meanwhile IEE begins feeling perplexed and disturbed by the harsh directness of his activity partner, LSE's habit to not try to slip out of the situation (thereby smoothing things out), but, to the contrary, to go for a straightforward and candid explanation, to get into very essence of relations trying to completely figure everything out. By this, observant, pedantic, very straightforward and somewhat harsh in communication LSE begins to scare the IEE, who starts to experience the ever-increasing discomfort in presence of his activator. Huxley stars feeling more and more tired of the stress and of the tightening control of the LSE and burdened by the presence. At this point, IEE will want to "slip" out of this situation and "diffuse" the distance. Now he wishes that there would be someone else in place of his spouse (and subconsciously, he is already thinking of other options).

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

Outwardly severe and businesslike, this sociotype contains in itself a tendency towards two quite different types of love: Pragma and Eros:
Combination of diplomatic Storge and inventive Filia makes him an ideal life partner for Controlling who is quite a difficult partner.
Humanist presents his claims in such a form that his partner becomes embarrassed by his unethical behavior and sharp statements.
Due to this he is inclined to do hasty conclusions and frequently commits ethical slips which complicates his relationships with people surrounding him. Lack of patience and self-control sometimes makes him sharp and tactless, he doesn't have enough not only diplomacy but also self-criticism. Due to this he needs the patience and perseverance of the Humanist who will tactfully and consistently re-educates his dual. Humanist acts not only as an educator but constantly he acts on the conscience of Controlling who is sufficiently sensitive and high moral principles are not alien to him.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...uality-LSE-EII

For this reason The Administrator, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt. He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. The Humanist softens ethical mistakes of his dual, performs peacemaking activities. By his persuasions he softens harsh behavior of the Administrator, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, he facilitates communication with others. This helps The Administrator to keep stable the circle of his business partners.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Meged-Ovcharov

You are often unable to control your emotions in full. You can easily loose your temper with friends and relatives if they do not follow your instructions and tuition or if someone's behaviour goes against your logic and understanding. When you are in a bad mood you can be very direct.

http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/estj.htm

[wacey]

Would you say you are disappointed in her?

mahahahahahaaha

[purpleowl]

My bf is telling me to ignore you which I really should since you say a whole lot of nothing and oftwn don't make sense and frustratw me but I'll go ahead and ask why do you think archetypes are assigned to types if it's not ro help define which gives us a way to identify and understand

What is your problem, Maritsa? Why do you feel a need to come off so high and mighty and confrontational? It's like you view yourself sitting on a throne looking down on your subjects and labeling everyone who doesn't agree with you as incompetent. You seem to have a real inability to see things from more than one angle.

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

That's not what I would consider controlling. I am thinking more along the lines of
- giving instructions AND getting irritated and impatient when they are not followed
- trying to control what the partner should look like/wear and getting irritable when partner decides to wear something else
- scolding and belittling
- treating the partner like an incompetent child
- pouting, bitching, or giving cold shoulder when demands are not met because partner made up his/her own mind about what is best for him/her

Those are not LSE traits.

[Aylen]

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Maritsa doesn't handle ambivalent or versatile people very well. She has a tendency to ignore your existance unless you are extremely faggy, or extremely str8 man. It's something I've noticed about her over the years.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh and Maritsa, you are not 'docile.' You are passive-aggressive. There's a big difference.

I'm not hating on you for it or anything, (I find it amusing and I actually prefer it to aggressive-aggressive people) But c'mon...

[Beautiful sky]

Oh and Maritsa, you are not 'docile.' You are passive-aggressive. There's a big difference.

I'm not hating on you for it or anything, (I find it amusing and I actually prefer it to aggressive-aggressive people) But c'mon...

you've never met me in person; ask my bf; i ignore the living hell out of people who treat me like crap shred my book and spit on my kindness

Docile Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
adj. adjective
Ready and willing to be taught; teachable.
Yielding to supervision, direction, or management; tractable.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa doesn't handle ambivalent or versatile people very well. She has a tendency to ignore your existance unless you are extremely faggy, or extremely str8 man. It's something I've noticed about her over the years.

????? wtf i took nothing but classes that had mixed people and volunteer at the senior center

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

you've never met me in person

I don't have to meet you in person. Do you have to be in a hair salon to remember what it smells like?

????? wtf i took nothing but classes that had mixed people and volunteer at the senior center

That's just outside superifical stuff. Your psychological energy has always drifted towards extremes, it's why you make all those posts supporting homosexual rights while at the same time wanting a 'real manly LSE str8 businessman' to have his way with you...

[Beautiful sky]

I don't have to meet you in person. Do you have to be in a hair salon to remember what it smells like?



That's just outside superifical stuff. Your psychological energy has always drifted towards extremes, it's why you make all those posts supporting homosexual rights while at the same time wanting a 'real manly LSE str8 businessman' to have his way with you...

what kind of a gay man do you want? lol

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

what kind of a gay man do you want? lol

The best of both worlds, somebody that is cute & sweet but at the same time thuggish/in-charge.

[Beautiful sky]

The best of both worlds, somebody that is cute & sweet but at the same time thuggish/in-charge.

you live in the wrong city for that

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I do?

Yeah I guess you're right, people here are kinda just too much on the str8/thuggish end without any good sweet fagot payoff.

[Birdie]

Yes.

[wacey]

The best of both worlds, somebody that is cute & sweet but at the same time thuggish/in-charge.

[Aylen]

I usually accept lists of people that disappointed EII and process them. Both the lists and people. So send them my way.

[purpleowl]

I usually accept lists of people that disappointed EII and process them. Both the lists and people. So send them my way.

Sounds like a plan!

[Emmym]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

I honestly try not to think like this, because it seems unfair to the other person. Other people should feel free being themselves without worrying that I'm going to act disappointed when they don't do what I want them to, lol. That said, I have an EII brother who is very much like this and it has caused a few fights. On his birthday, he refused to talk to either me or our mother when he didn't get the celebration he wanted, which neither of us could afford. I did my best, going out early in the morning to get things for him and taking the day off from work to spend with him. Needless to say, I was insulted.

Pretty much anytime we're out and he fails to get something he wants, or something he doesn't like occurs (which can be incredibly trivial, like the place we go to eat playing music by a singer he doesn't like, or having to pay for his meal when he was mysteriously under the impression that someone else was going to pay for him) he totally shuts down and stops acknowledging everyone. It'd led me to not want to go anywhere with him or invite him places. OTOH, if he doesn't get an invitation, he takes it personally, and later complains that no one cares about his feelings.

Sorry, I just wound up dumping a rant on you accidentally lol but this kind of behavior triggers my anxiety often. On one hand, I want to be considerate of other EIIs, but I usually feel that that consideration is taken for granted and I'm later "punished" if my efforts fall short of expectations. It's worth noting that my brother is a 4w5 and I'm a 2w3, so that might be part of the reason I can't stand it when he acts this way.

[purpleowl]

I honestly try not to think like this, because it seems unfair to the other person. Other people should feel free being themselves without worrying that I'm going to act disappointed when they don't do what I want them to, lol. That said, I have an EII brother who is very much like this and it has caused a few fights. On his birthday, he refused to talk to either me or our mother when he didn't get the celebration he wanted, which neither of us could afford. I did my best, going out early in the morning to get things for him and taking the day off from work to spend with him. Needless to say, I was insulted.

Pretty much anytime we're out and he fails to get something he wants, or something he doesn't like occurs (which can be incredibly trivial, like the place we go to eat playing music by a singer he doesn't like, or having to pay for his meal when he was mysteriously under the impression that someone else was going to pay for him) he totally shuts down and stops acknowledging everyone. It'd led me to not want to go anywhere with him or invite him places. OTOH, if he doesn't get an invitation, he takes it personally, and later complains that no one cares about his feelings.

Sorry, I just wound up dumping a rant on you accidentally lol but this kind of behavior triggers my anxiety often. On one hand, I want to be considerate of other EIIs, but I usually feel that that consideration is taken for granted and I'm later "punished" if my efforts fall short of expectations. It's worth noting that my brother is a 4w5 and I'm a 2w3, so that might be part of the reason I can't stand it when he acts this way.

Your brother's behavior is very far from what I was referring to here and I do not relate to it at all. I have nearly zero expectations of that kind and material things interest me very little, definitely not nearly enough to place any focus on them. I am actually quite the opposite to your brother in that sense, very easy-going and actually preferring for someone else to take the initiative in those matters, finding myself content as long as I am with someone I feel a strong and positive connection with.