Birds

[KSpin]

I'm definitely a night owl. Naturally, when I have no commitments, I hate going to bed and can only do it when I'm very tired. So I tend to go to bed very late. Circa 2am or later in the morning, and I'll wake up at 10am at the earliest.

Edit: But I cannot get up too late, otherwise I feel like I've wasted a day. Even if I do 'waste' that day in some other way, like playing games on the computer.

[flower]

Edit: But I cannot get up too late, otherwise I feel like I've wasted a day. Even if I do 'waste' that day in some other way, like playing games on the computer.

Interesting comment, lots of people say that it feels like I have wasted a day getting up very late, even if the total waking hours are the same, and I feel that sometimes aswell. Its funny how say playing a game, watching tv episodes, reading a book etc between 2am and 4am then getting up 2 hours later sometimes feels like a waste of time but going to bed at 2am, getting up 2 hours earlier and then doing that thing for 2 hours dosent feel like the same waste of time.

I think in a kind of way the night hours as I mentioned before feel more timeless, because of the lack of people around, lack of noise, no changing light levels, no social interaction etc, so those night hours dont register with you brain as as long a time period as the same period of time during the day. Also its like because you feel everybody is awake during the morning but your not, its like the night hours are less legitimate or something and socially its expected that you keep a 'normal' sleeping pattern. Those two things kinda therefore make it feel like the day hours are 'worth' more, and sleeping through them is therefore a waste.

[KSpin]

Yes. I feel like I'm wasting daylight hours. But I prefer it when it's nice and peaceful during the night.

[Mea]

Yes. I feel like I'm wasting daylight hours. But I prefer it when it's nice and peaceful during the night.

Yes. Definitely. It's so nice and peaceful at night. The streets aren't so crowded, less cars on the roads, and the amazing breeze at night + the cool air.

[flower]

We should start up a new society that sleeps during the day and is awake at night, instead of the 'morning people' just declaring that they are the 'normal' ones

[Mea]

We should start up a new society that sleeps during the day and is awake at night, instead of the 'morning people' just declaring that they are the 'normal' ones

Hehe. Yes. It's 6:45am now. And I haven't slept.

[KSpin]

I think it's the idea that it's cheaper to work during the day, and sleep when it's dark, and you need to use energy to be able to see anything.

Of course this isn't the original reason, which had something to do with safety, heat and not being able to see.

[Dioklecian]

I can be both types of bird, usually I am a night owl, however on holidays I become an early bird

[Phaedrus]

I can be both types of bird, usually I am a night owl, however on holidays I become an early bird

That means that you haven't understood what this is all about. You have misunderstood the difference between a night owl and an early bird.

[Logos]

I can be both types of bird, usually I am a night owl, however on holidays I become an early bird

That means that you haven't understood what this is all about. You have misunderstood the difference between a night owl and an early bird.

Anyway, Phaedrus, it is nice that you are gathering this data, but what have you drawn from it thus far?

[Phaedrus]

Anyway, Phaedrus, it is nice that you are gathering this data, but what have you drawn from it thus far?

Some people have neither confirmed nor complained about their place on the list, some people have commented in a way that is somewhat hard to interpret, and some people haven't commented here but since they have confirmed both their "birdness" and their J/P-ness elsewhere, we can be sure of which group they belong to anyway. Given the assumption that being an early bird correlates with rationality, and that being a night owl correlates with irrationality, a summary of the data so far would be something like this:

Anomalies
Logos
FDG
Subterranean (and his relatives)
Kristiina

Corroborations
niffweed17
Diana
Jonathan
flower
Jarno
KSpin
Mea
XoX
oyburger

If we can somehow prove beyond reasonable doubt that at least one of the "anomlies" is correctly typed on both dimensions -- rationality/irrationality and early bird/night owl -- the strong version of the hypothesis would be falsified. A softer version of it (that there is a correlation but not a perfect one) would still be possible.

So the next question is: Has the the strong version of the hypothesis now been falsified? Maybe, but I would like to be more certain of it than I am right now, because not everyone seems convinced that Logos and Subterranenan are correctly typed, FDG was convinced that he was an ENTj in the past, and Kristiina's type has been somewhat questioned (or at least not totally confirmed) by some people too. A strong version of the hypothesis is probably untenable, but I would prefer a knock-down falsification -- like for example that Expat, UDP III, Smilingeyes, or Ganin, would be a night owl, or that Lytov would be an early bird.

[Expat]

Usually I sleep 6 hours a night and when I don't party too much those are stably from 00:00 to 6:00, with a variation of half an hour. I hate to go to sleep late because I know that I won't function well the next day.

My overall energy pattern is at its highest during the morning and at its lowest around 5:00 pm. I would say that I am probably the most morning-birdy among my acquaintances, that seem to be somewhat sleepy during the morning.

This describes me to a large extent. I also sleep more or less stably from 00:00 to 7:00, nowadays I tend to need more like 7 hours per night on average, although I can easily work through the night and into the next day if I have to, on occasion.

I feel more energetic during the morning, but I often do things at night, precisely because I am less energetic -- hard to explain, things that require more concentration I do better when feeling less energetic.

My ESFj ex, though, she was definitely far less energetic in the morning than in the evenings. So if there is a correlation, I'd say it's not a perfect one.

[Logos]

I will tell you that while I am a night owl, I do prefer early morning classes so that I can get them out of the way.

[anndelise]

early morning person here

i used to wake up regularly at 4:30am-5:30am, even when not working
when I had manta i required more sleep and so started "sleeping in" until 6:30-7am
since being with richard who used to be a late night person, i range between 5:30-8:30, depending on season
there are times, however, when i've stayed up late (after 10pm). but when i do so i am lethargic the next day...because i'm still up when the sun starts coming up and i have a very difficult time napping during the day. I have a difficult time sleeping when the sun is up..and when i do happen to drift off (in my unhealthy states) i wind up with headaches and an even more depth of lethargy.

i've always preferred getting up before everyone else and getting my chores or studying done at that time. less interruptions and i'm refreshed instead of stressed out from daily stress.

i also like walking in the early mornings...most the dogs are asleep and so less barking, most people are just starting to wake up...or will soon..so less traffic, the night air has cleared up many of the daily smells, and there's a blessed silence because even by then, the late night partying people are finally in bed themselves, leaving the best time of the day for people like me

[KSpin]

I can tell you that my ISFj girlfriend goes to bed early and gets up late.

[Slacker]

I'm up most mornings by 7 and in bed most nights by 10:30. I don't think that makes me a night owl. LOL

How was this not specific enough for you?

[posablethumb]

night owl here

[Phaedrus]

I'm up most mornings by 7 and in bed most nights by 10:30. I don't think that makes me a night owl. LOL

How was this not specific enough for you?

Because this is not about sleeping habits only or even mostly. It is about involuntary biological processes, your body temperature, and your natural temperament. That you use to wake up a certain time most mornings and go to bed a certain time most nights could be due to several external, irrelevant factors, like that you have to do it because you have a certain job, etc. You can force yourself to a certain way of living that is contrary to your natural temperament.

[aestrivex]

I'm up most mornings by 7 and in bed most nights by 10:30. I don't think that makes me a night owl. LOL

How was this not specific enough for you?

Because this is not about sleeping habits only or even mostly. It is about involuntary biological processes, your body temperature, and your natural temperament. That you use to wake up a certain time most mornings and go to bed a certain time most nights could be due to several external, irrelevant factors, like that you have to do it because you have a certain job, etc. You can force yourself to a certain way of living that is contrary to your natural temperament.

you are out of your mind.

[Phaedrus]

you are out of your mind.

Even if that would be true, it is totally irrelevant to the truth of the statement I made.

[Slacker]

OK well it isn't due to external factors. I was up till midnight last night, which is very unusual, and I was so tired I could hardly keep my eyes open. Then I still woke up at 7 this morning because I just can't sleep past 7 no matter what. I could have slept later because everyone else in my house is still asleep so no one is making demands on me and there is no external reason for me to have woken up. My natural inclination has always been to go to bed early and wake up early, although other factors have gotten in the way of that from time to time (like when I was in college).

[Topaz]

Ive always had difficulty settling my mind to sleep. My habits is to go to bed around 11:30pm and wake up (but not neccessarily get out of bed) at 5:00 am. Mostly I will get out of bed around 6 after Ive lain there making plans or dreaming while awake. Often times I like to read early in the morning. When its spring/summer I often go to the gym and burn off some steam. At night I often go to bed late because of goofing around on the computer or watching TV or hanging out with friends.

[krieger]

Put me up with the anomalies.

I am a night-bird.

I am rational overlooking irrational.

[aestrivex]

this thread is insane.

this is the way it is because it has to be, even though it isn't.



i think i'm a morning bird because i eat yogurt frequently.

[Slacker]

<3 Niffweed, his , and his sarcastic wit.

[anndelise]

Funny thing is…phaddy has already set things up so that he can dismiss anything anyone says that is contrary to his theory.
1. If you claim to be an anomaly, your comments are somewhat hard (for phaddy) to interpret.
2. If you claim to be an anomaly, then you are likely either mistyped in socionics or are a mistyped bird.
3. If you claim to be an anomaly, and you are properly typed in socionics, then you've probably just forced yourself to a certain way of living that is contrary to your natural temperament.
4. The only way we (phaddy) can really be sure is if those who claim to be an anomaly get tested at a sleep laboratory.
(note that those who corroborate don't need to be tested)

[Slacker]

"What I'm seeing doesn't fit my logical conclusion, so something might very well be wrong with what I'm seeing"

Vs.

"The evidence doesn't support your logical conclusion, therefore your logical conclusion might very well be wrong"

Draw your own conclusions.

[Phaedrus]

1. If you claim to be an anomaly, your comments are somewhat hard (for phaddy) to interpret.

No. Only those comments that didn't address the real issue and/or were phrased in a way that didn't reveal if the person had understood the difference between night owls and early birds or not were somewhat hard to judge. For example Slacker Mom's clarification is now much easier to interpret than it was earlier. But some people's comments are still too uncertain to be mentioned in the summary.

2. If you claim to be an anomaly, then you are likely either mistyped in socionics or are a mistyped bird.

No. But unless we can be sure of both the socionic type and the type of bird, the anomaly can't be used as a definite falsification of the strong version of the hypothesis. That is trivial, and everyone would of course agree to that. The only reason I can't use one of the anomalies as a clear refutation of the strong version of the hypothesis is that I can't be 100 % sure of the types of those persons due to insufficient information. (Others might have sufficient information already in order to be sure of their types, but I don't). If someone could present a really good case for the correctness of one of those typings I might be convinced, or if one of those persons, whose J/P-ness I am sure of, turn out to be an anomaly, I will also be convinced.

3. If you claim to be an anomaly, and you are properly typed in socionics, then you've probably just forced yourself to a certain way of living that is contrary to your natural temperament.

No. That is possible but not likely.

4. The only way we (phaddy) can really be sure is if those who claim to be an anomaly get tested at a sleep laboratory.
(note that those who corroborate don't need to be tested)

No. A sleep laboratory is not necessary in most cases. I only mentioned it because that is a full-proof way to test these things scientifically. I will be convinced if you can present a clear case for what type of bird you are. It is much more difficult to present an equally convincing case for what socionic type you are when you can't meet the person in real life. But it is not impossible. And in this context the only thing we need to be sure of is whether the person is a rational or an irrational type.

The persons on the list were chosen either because I am convinced of their J/P-ness, or because I was especially interested in how they would respond, even if I am not totally convinced of their J/P-ness. And the corroborations don't need to be tested, because we should try to falsify the hypothesis -- not confirm it.

[KSpin]

If there can be seen to be a corellation between type and whether you prefer mornings or evenings, they could be used in a description of type behaviour, and could even help people distinguish between two types for themselves.

[Phaedrus]

If there can be seen to be a corellation between type and whether you prefer mornings or evenings, they could be used in a description of type behaviour, and could even help people distinguish between two types for themselves.

Yes, especially the strong version of the hypothesis (which has a low probability of being true) would be an extremely powerful, helpful and reliable typing tool. And that's why it is so important to test whether it is true or false.

[KSpin]

If there can be seen to be a corellation between type and whether you prefer mornings or evenings, they could be used in a description of type behaviour, and could even help people distinguish between two types for themselves.

Yes, especially the strong version of the hypothesis (which has a low probability of being true) would be an extremely powerful, helpful and reliable typing tool. And that's why it is so important to test whether it is true or false.

I can tell you, for what it's worth, that I often feel like going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon, especially when I've woken up earlier than normal. This will, of course, make me want to stay up later.

[Slacker]

I guess it could be true in a more likely/less likely way, but I don't see how it could be a 100% thing. For what it's worth, my husband fits your rule. He'd go to bed at 3 or 4 am and not wake up till 11 if he could.

[Phaedrus]

Put me up with the anomalies.

I am a night-bird.

I am rational overlooking irrational.

I am irrational according to just about every J/P description out there.

This proves that you are not an anomaly at all. You are an irrational type and a night owl -- exactly according to the general hypothesis.

[Kristiina]

Phaedrus, seeing myself in the early bird list is pissing me off. I told you I'm not an early bird. You make a theory, everyone keeps telling you you are wrong, but you dismiss all evidence. Remove me from the early bird list because I do not give you my permission to use me as proof to your flawed theory.

[KSpin]

Phaedrus, seeing myself in the early bird list is pissing me off. I told you I'm not an early bird. You make a theory, everyone keeps telling you you are wrong, but you dismiss all evidence. Remove me from the early bird list because I do not give you my permission to use me as proof to your flawed theory.

Calm down dear. It's only a theory! :wink:

[Creepy-bg]

Phaedrus, seeing myself in the early bird list is pissing me off. I told you I'm not an early bird. You make a theory, everyone keeps telling you you are wrong, but you dismiss all evidence. Remove me from the early bird list because I do not give you my permission to use me as proof to your flawed theory.

Calm down dear. It's only a theory! :wink:

*sits down* this auta be good!

[Phaedrus]

Phaedrus, seeing myself in the early bird list is pissing me off. I told you I'm not an early bird. You make a theory, everyone keeps telling you you are wrong, but you dismiss all evidence. Remove me from the early bird list because I do not give you my permission to use me as proof to your flawed theory.

I have no proof that any of the listed persons is what I claim that they are. The list was meant to provoke a reaction so that the hypothesis could be tested. You are one of a few people so far that has said that you don't fit the pattern. And that is good, because then we have a chance to falsify the hypothesis, which is exactly what I want to do if possible. You can help me by trying to prove as convincingly as possible, by using as many information sources you want, that you are a both a night owl AND a rational type at the same time. For example, are both Expat and Rick sure -- beyond reasonable doubt -- that you are an ENFj? If that is correct I will probably accept that as enough evidence of your type. And if you then can convince me that you are a night owl too, that would settle it, I think. One reason for me not to be totally convinced yet is that Olga had some doubts about your type after meeting you in real life.

[Slacker]

The problem, Phaedrus, is that you require a ton of proof from those who don't fit your theory, but you accept those who do without any particular proof.

[KSpin]

The problem, Phaedrus, is that you require a ton of proof from those who don't fit your theory, but you accept those who do without any particular proof.

He's assuming that it's right until he can prove it wrong. Is there something wrong with that?

Edit: With a larger theory, yes, it may be wise not to assume it's right, but this is hardly life or death stuff.

[Creepy-bg]

I'm a deffinate night owl... I hate the friggin daylight (but that might have to do with living where it's like 1000 degrees outside in the daytime)