ISTp-ENFp duality complementary subtypes (IEE-SLI)

[zenbrat]

I was looking at the subtypes for ENFP & ISTP and noticed that even within these dual pairs, certain subtypes seem most complimentary.

Looking at my own experiences (as an Ne subtype), I've had smooth interactions with 4 Si-ISTp's and 'difficult' interactions with 2 Te-ISTp's. My oldest son is an Si-ISTp and we get along like all of the the dual descriptions propose we should. I wasn't aware that I had been experiencing duality all these years. I strongly suspect my father is also an Si-ISTp - he and my son are almost identical. I have to wonder if that's part of the reason why I keep attracting ISTp's, almost without fail. I have practice?

The Ne-ENFp + Si-ISTp pair seems mutually laid back, thoughtful, with shared sensory and 'aesthetic' interests. There is a heavy internal focus with a greater need to share their thoughts and conclusions about things. There is more focus here on mental/emotional processing of experiences in order to "understand" than with the other pair. They experience together, then process together.

The Fi-ENFp + Te-ISTp pair seems to have a shared drive toward excitement and activity. There is less internal focus and less need to share their internal responses (which may feel burdensome for the other). Keeping things 'light' and active appears to be the greater preference here. Both of these subtypes probably maintain a wider circle of aquaintainces and therefore have less difficulty with 'time expectations' of the other.


What do you think?

[Going B. Zerk]

Interesting.

Although the subtype theory is imo debatable. Some ppl don’t fall in neither, while others seem to have a bit of both in similar amounts.

But interesting nevertheless.


And what made your interactions with the Te subtype “difficult”? If you don’t mind my asking...

[Expat]

The Ne-ENFp + Si-ISTp pair seems mutually laid back, thoughtful, with shared sensory and 'aesthetic' interests. There is a heavy internal focus with a greater need to share their thoughts and conclusions about things. There is more focus here on mental/emotional processing of experiences in order to "understand" than with the other pair. They experience together, then process together.

The Fi-ENFp + Te-ISTp pair seems to have a shared drive toward excitement and activity. There is less internal focus and less need to share their internal responses (which may feel burdensome for the other). Keeping things 'light' and active appears to be the greater preference here. Both of these subtypes probably maintain a wider circle of aquaintainces and therefore have less difficulty with 'time expectations' of the other.

I'd have thought that the bold parts would be reversed, that is, belong to the other pair, respectively.

[mikemex]

I'm aware of at least two kinds of ISTp.

One is "hedonist". It's more extroverted, more sociable, less reserved, less intellectual. The sense of humor is quite dark; almost offensive. Is rarely interested in working; prefers to drink and be involved in other leisure activities.

The other is "expert". It's more introverted, less sociable, more reserved. The sense of humor is more "elegant" and less crude. More receptive to intellectual stuff. Likes technical stuff and be involved in "interesting projects". In general, enjoys working more than the other kind.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

[FDG]

I agree 100 percent with zenbrat, at least - my observations about ISTp-ENFp interactions confirm your theory. May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain. There's a certain inclination for competition and attempting to subdue the other one.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

[mikemex]

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

We both know that you don't believe it. You're a nerd who spends a good deal of his time analyzing stuff around here. You could spend all that time having fun doing mindless stuff.

But that would not be... fun.

[FDG]

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

We both know that you don't believe it. You're a nerd who spends a good deal of his time analyzing stuff around here. You could spend all that time having fun doing mindless stuff.

But that would not be... fun.

Ah...Ok, I get now what you mean.

[zenbrat]

I'm aware of at least two kinds of ISTp.

One is "hedonist". It's more extroverted, more sociable, less reserved, less intellectual. The sense of humor is quite dark; almost offensive. Is rarely interested in working; prefers to drink and be involved in other leisure activities.

The other is "expert". It's more introverted, less sociable, more reserved. The sense of humor is more "elegant" and less crude. More receptive to intellectual stuff. Likes technical stuff and be involved in "interesting projects". In general, enjoys working more than the other kind.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

I agree with these descriptions. I've seen the same patterns, but I've found both 'types' to be highly intelligent. The hedonist variety seems to operate in inspired bursts of production and intellectual insight, but the depth and quality are equal to the that of the steady 'expert'.

[zenbrat]

I agree 100 percent with zenbrat, at least - my observations about ISTp-ENFp interactions confirm your theory. May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain. There's a certain inclination for competition and attempting to subdue the other one.

FDG, this describes it very well! I am going to write an in-depth response to these points, but I am exhausted right now. Brain no workie. I will try to post it tomorrow.

[mikemex]

Well, I just tried to describe, not to make the impression that one is better than the other. I like both kinds, each has wonderful things to offer.

Examples:

Hedonist: ICEPick
Expert: Napalm

P.S. Another characteristic is that "hedonist" is messy and "expert" is orderly.

[Jarno]

my experience is the same.

I get along better with same (producing) subtypes.

ILI
SEE

[Slacker]

According to Mike's descriptions, my husband is more "expert" although he is part "hedonist" too. My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

[zenbrat]

My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

Yes, that's true. In every typing system there is a dichotomy - a dark half and a light half. One is 'comfort zone' behavior and the other is 'coping' behavior.

[leckysupport]

My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

Yes, that's true. In every typing system there is a dichotomy - a dark half and a light half. One is 'comfort zone' behavior and the other is 'coping' behavior.

What? Please explain further.

[zenbrat]

May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain.

ISTp-Te feels constant tension - a drive, a need - to do something productive. They focus heavily on their work and personal projects, often pulling all-nighters to get things just right. The project could be a hobby, merely an entertaining distraction, but they approach it like it must be done. They formulate a loose blueprint and process flow in their minds before they begin, often loosely scheduling certain times of day when they will work on these projects. They need to "see" evidence of their contribution, skill, intellect, in the production of something useful, beautiful, exacting. Without these milestones, the 'lows' in quiet moments are overwhelming - they begin to question why they even bother 'being here'. I suppose these projects are a distraction from those lows; a way to keep them at bay and give themselves a purpose.

ENFp-Ne is driven by a need for constant improvement in themselves, their environments and their understanding of things. I think ENFp feels the pressure of being a bit disorganized, distracted, forgetful, etc - generally feeling "all over the place", all the time. Achievements have the same effect - it provides a focus, a useful purpose. Perfectionism nags them - "close enough" is NOT good enough for the ENFp, but it may often feel like that is as close as they will ever come. The ENFp will also pull all-nighters to get it just right, but just like the ISTp, this comes in inspired burst of productivity. They just jump into it wherever they can find a starting point and figure it out as they go.

Both feel the need to "see" personal improvement through achievement of desired results.

There's a certain inclination for competition...

Yes, yes, yes... but no. Competition here is friendly, never malicious. It's more about projecting (protecting) competency in the other's arena of prowess. The ISTp-Te and ENFp-Ne may have completely different skills but they both know that they could do what the other does equally well, if they were so inclined. They may try their hand at the other's skill set to achieve competency but there is no drive to "best" the other. There is mutual respect and appreciation in this sort of competition.

For example, if the ISTp-Te is a web developer, and the ENFP-Ne works on increasing their skill here, the ISTp appreciates the ENFp's ability - and vice versa. I think the Te and Ne feel a measure of pride in the other because both of them are (or can be) so capable in so many areas. Competition here is motivating, "improving" and bonding rather than destructive and divisive. However, the ENFp is usually most interested in learning the ISTp's skills rather than the other way around, unless those skills can be applied to ISTp's own projects/interests.

Also, because the ENFp is interested in ev-er-y-thing and often knows a little about a lot, the ISTp feels comfortable discussing even their most 'obscure' interests with them - often in a teaching way - knowing that the ENFp-Ne is receptive to learning & discussion (while most other people couldn't care less)

and attempting to subdue the other one.

This is funny. I don't think the Ne tries to subdue the Te, but the Te does try to subdue the Ne. It's never active control, but the Te controls the situation by being 'fixed'. The ISTp is convinced that their idea, way of doing something, decision, and/or conceptualized 'schedule' of events is the right way and cannot be moved by the ENFp. No matter how vehement the ENFp's outburst, or how sweet their coercion, ISTp (often) remains fixed. ENFp eventually concedes and is 'subdued' once they realize that beating & sweet-talking the rock will not move it one inch. However, over time, the ENFp begins to see that the ISTp is rational, has a good practical understanding of things and makes thoughtful decisions, so they begin to trust in it without quite so much pushback. I think the ENFp is more convinced than subdued. The ISTp also begins to trust in the ENFp's intuition about things and becomes more receptive to being "shifted" slightly if it seems best - but never moved.

[JuJu]

Dear everyone reading this,

I know that this subject has been done before, but I'm curious about how it applies in this specific instance: how do IEE and SLI subtypes undermine (or improve) IEE-SLI duality?

For example, is the sensory SLI subtype better-suited to the ethical IEE subtype?

If you have a story to tell, by all means... Or a guess (ideally, about which you've thought for more than twenty seconds. heh. please.)

[xyz]

i wonder which one i am. as for the post, i think it does play out differently... but im not sure about undermining?

[hellothere]

i wonder which one i am. as for the post, i think it does play out differently... but im not sure about undermining?

maybe Si subtype, which could explain why some people (according to the userlists on the wiki) type you as ISTp while others type you ISFp

[hellothere]

Generally I think it makes sense (as munenori has already said), that an ISTp-Si subtype (who either is relatively stronger in Si/Se, or values Si/Ne relatively more [than a Te subtype]) would benefit from more Ne (than a Te subtype) and hence be more suited to the ENFp-Ne, and vice versa.

What might be interesting though is how subtypes are different in their usage of (unvalued) id functions. I started a thread recently where thehotelambush suggested that as an INTj-Ne, he finds Te much more annoying than INTj-Tis do, and also said that some ESxj-Si's have more noticeable demonstrative Se.

Now I have read before that creative subtypes (e.g. ISTp-Te, ENFp-Fi), have more prominent PoLRs, so for example an ISTp-Te may be more sensitive (insensitive?) to Fe than an ISTp-Si. But at the same time, an ENFp-Fi may have more noticeable Fe, which might not be a good thing for the ISTp-Te. Perhaps then this ISTp is better off with the ENFp-Ne, because they are less likely to hit the oversensitive PoLR.

However in the same post, thehotelambush mentioned that he found demonstrative Se very attractive, so who knows how this stuff might work.

A related question - is duality likely to be 'stronger' for two accepting subtypes compared to two producing subtypes?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't prescribe to the sub types thing.. To sum it up, I don't see how or why someone would put an emphasis on one function more than the other for a length of time for sub types to mean anything; They're already in order as per model A?

[xyz]

maybe Si subtype, which could explain why some people (according to the userlists on the wiki) type you as ISTp while others type you ISFp

Do people really think I'm a SEI type?

[jessica129]

Do people really think I'm a SEI type?

If not ISTP, i could see this as a close possiblity. And where are these "subtype" descriptions people are speaking of?

[munenori2]

a little birdie told me that Si goes with Ne and Fi with Te.

[JuJu]

i have to agree. Nothing against them....but not the same to me as an Si subtype......what does that make me then ...an Ne-ENFp.....i dunno, perhaps it does.

a little birdie told me that Si goes with Ne and Fi with Te.

quoted for kensi if you have a video i could try to tell what subtype you are for sure.

love the Te's... anyone got a Te-ISTp example we could put up in this mutha?

[jessica129]

Me!

[Sirena]

If I remember correctly, you have not experienced interaction with IEEs very much. That explains your opinion about them.

IEEs can at times be mistaken for introverts. They often have a live-and-let-live attitude toward others and can't be described as intrusive or particularily expansive.

Most of my friends talk to me and I just listen and listen. Even my introvert friends say I'm overly quiet at times. I even sometimes feel awkward when I'm with a person and I don't know what to say.

So I doubt a quiet IEE will annoy you. Maybe the ones you know are not IEE.

I think that that may have a lot to do with the fact that N is coupled with F as a dominant attitude and thus ENFps pick their spots until they find an Fi field which interests them.... If N was coupled with T as for ENTps....extraversion would be a lot more noticeable as T is direct and simply goes about its business unlike the choosy and more concentrated F.

As an xNFp, i sometimes thought of myself as introvert...thus i was INFp.....but later noticed when Fi was satisfied I became a total extravert and to this day consider myself ENFp for the most part.

These two statements explain me so well!

[Jarno]

Dear everyone reading this,

I know that this subject has been done before, but I'm curious about how it applies in this specific instance: how do IEE and SLI subtypes undermine (or improve) IEE-SLI duality?

For example, is the sensory SLI subtype better-suited to the ethical IEE subtype?

Accepting subtype SLI-s are better suited for accepting subtype IEE-i
Producing subtype SLI-l are better suited for producing subtype IEE-e

[Sirena]

Accepting subtype SLI-s are better suited for accepting subtype IEE-i
Producing subtype SLI-l are better suited for producing subtype IEE-e

Can you explain why you think so? Thanks.

[Wynch]

SLIs should hook-up with ILEs. We're schmexier and way more cool.

Can you explain why you think so? Thanks.

Because Si is Ne-seeking and Te is Fi-seeking.

[Reuben]

There are only two cool SLI's in this world.

First one - Jay Chou, for obvious reasons. People who hate him just because he's Asian should eat bull's hair.

Second- jessica129. No idea, probably because she's another one of those fucking kittens I guess. I like her.

Third - my SuperEgo. No justification. My SuperEgo is just cool. Probably because it's my Ego upsized. Just because. Yea.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Can you explain why you think so? Thanks.

I could explain this to you pretty well I think as it's something i've been looking into of late (seriously), but hey that would involve effort like pressing buttons on a keyboard. Although this might seem like more effort.. I think i'd rather just beat you..I dunno maybe i'd just enjoy that more..

[Sirena]

I could explain this to you pretty well I think as it's something i've been looking into of late (seriously), but hey that would involve effort like pressing buttons on a keyboard. Although this might seem like more effort.. I think i'd rather just beat you..I dunno maybe i'd just enjoy that more..

Oh give it up Cyclops! That or I could make you get on AIM/MSN and tell me in a lot more detail than you'd like. Your choice.

[inabox]

I'm an Fi-IEE and my husband is Te-ISTps. the reason I found him to be very attractive over Si-ISTps is the fact he's more talkative, more outgoing . And more brash.

Si-ISTps have this 'softness' that doesn't appeal to me usually in romantic settings. I believe another Fi-IEE user had similar opinions and her long term partner is Si-ESTj .

[Lord Pixel]

How do you even recognize subtypes? Like first you have to find a dual, than a dual with the right subtype, geez man lol.

I did met an LSE man that was very laid back which caught me off guard, but seemed very LSE nonethless, DS Fi, creative Si. So maybe he was an Si LSE?

[meatburger]

I don't really actively think about socionics that much but sometimes i find myself back here. I don't know what subtype i am, i thought for the longest time that i was the FI subtype because i would say that 'kindness' seems like my most defining characteristic which seemed related to Fi but i actually think i fit with the Ne type now. I think depression/anxiety / Ne polr parents muted that.

I have a very long standing friend who is a Te SLI. He is basically as archetypal as you can imagine. Has rebuilt car engines without studying mechanics, incredibly practical in other areas (has a hops farm). Hes quite an angry / firery person and i'm not sure how characteristic that is of Te types. I think there are some pathological slight personality issues there. He will yell at his sister, tell his ENFp wife she has got the wrong BBQ fitting and sending her off again while im subtly suggesting that he and i should go get it for her. He recently had a fight with this really close friends of his, socially he just cannot win. He is loyal to a fault, he is very talkative and interesting and i do enjoy hanging out with him (in moderation). So all in all even though i haven't painted him in the best light I do like him and find him very stimulating. I often cant actually keep up with what hes saying i find myself asking for a bit more clarification because i feel like hes assuming i know wtf hes talking about.

This is a message i got 2 days ago:

Him: "I gotta put extractors on the BA and high flow catalitic converter"
Me: "Ahh yeah ive gotta fit contractors on my cyclotronic amplifier".

I've been friends with two Si-ISTp's and I just found them far easier to hang around for long periods. They are more socially skilled so its just easier. They are obviously really chilled out, talk slower, more subtle smiles etc. The guys i know were/are quite successful with women. I met a guy on a holiday a while back and we got on really well. He just made me want to laugh looking at him (in a good way). He was uncannily similar to Scott Ryan from the Australian series Mr Inbetween. His mannerisms were almost exactly the same, i swear they could have been twins. I don't think this dude kills anyone though. Fantastic show btw.



One of my clients who has depression is an Si-ISTp as well. He says things like 'I really like you coming to visit' and 'have a good day'. Its quite endearing. I also wonder if its different between Friends / In a relationship.

So all in all, i find Te ISTp's more intellectually stimulating / tiring, but i'd have to choose Si-ISTp's as my preference for just the sheer comfort. Not having to think really has it's merits.

Anyway, there is my rant that probably helps no one but whatever lol.

[Adam Strange]

I don't really actively think about socionics that much but sometimes i find myself back here. I don't know what subtype i am, i thought for the longest time that i was the FI subtype because i would say that 'kindness' seems like my most defining characteristic which seemed related to Fi but i actually think i fit with the Ne type now. I think depression/anxiety / Ne polr parents muted that.

I have a very long standing friend who is a Te SLI. He is basically as archetypal as you can imagine. Has rebuilt car engines without studying mechanics, incredibly practical in other areas (has a hops farm). Hes quite an angry / firery person and i'm not sure how characteristic that is of Te types. I think there are some pathological slight personality issues there. He will yell at his sister, tell his ENFp wife she has got the wrong BBQ fitting and sending her off again while im subtly suggesting that he and i should go get it for her. He recently had a fight with this really close friends of his, socially he just cannot win. He is loyal to a fault, he is very talkative and interesting and i do enjoy hanging out with him (in moderation). So all in all even though i haven't painted him in the best light I do like him and find him very stimulating. I often cant actually keep up with what hes saying i find myself asking for a bit more clarification because i feel like hes assuming i know wtf hes talking about.

This is a message i got 2 days ago:

Him: "I gotta put extractors on the BA and high flow catalitic converter"
Me: "Ahh yeah ive gotta fit contractors on my cyclotronic amplifier".

I've been friends with two Si-ISTp's and I just found them far easier to hang around for long periods. They are more socially skilled so its just easier. They are obviously really chilled out, talk slower, more subtle smiles etc. The guys i know were/are quite successful with women. I met a guy on a holiday a while back and we got on really well. He just made me want to laugh looking at him (in a good way). He was uncannily similar to Scott Ryan from the Australian series Mr Inbetween. His mannerisms were almost exactly the same, i swear they could have been twins. I don't think this dude kills anyone though. Fantastic show btw.



One of my clients who has depression is an Si-ISTp as well. He says things like 'I really like you coming to visit' and 'have a good day'. Its quite endearing. I also wonder if its different between Friends / In a relationship.

So all in all, i find Te ISTp's more intellectually stimulating / tiring, but i'd have to choose Si-ISTp's as my preference for just the sheer comfort. Not having to think really has it's merits.

Anyway, there is my rant that probably helps no one but whatever lol.

@meatburger, that's a really good description of the differences that I find between my Dual's two subtypes. Either exciting, or comfortable.

I wonder if this is a universal?

[meatburger]

@meatburger, that's a really good description of the differences that I find between my Dual's two subtypes. Either exciting, or comfortable.

I wonder if this is a universal?

Yeah i'm not sure. When you think about it that's quite true for a lot of subtypes isn't it. My mum is an ESI-Fi and I work with an ESI-Se. Both awesome but definitely quite different energy levels. I like both equally, my mother is the most caring person i've ever met and the girl from work is fiery and vulnerable in a good way. I guess whatever subtype you are could change who you find comfortable though.

I also am friends with both subtypes of EII. The Fi Subtype guy is kinder, more tactful, more well rounded and fun, the Ne type is a bit saracastic & snarky but sharp as a whip to the point where i feel slightly on edge.

[lkdhf qkb]

The way I see it, there are two kinds of IEEs:
- 1. the ones that love to be helped and project a big aura of incompetence(huh huh? Can you help me fill in my tax return report? I'm such a mess & life's distressing & I'm going to cry) so that some Te ego must care for them = IEE-Fi
- 2. the ones that prefer to do things on their own, fuck things up, pretend there is no problem until it blows up, ask some Te ego for help as last resort(Everything's under control, haha there's no problem! Can you lend me some money?) = IEE-Ne

[meatburger]

@meatburger You work as a caretaker, right? You post a lot about your relationships with the people in your life. That sounds like boosted Fi + Si. You seem to be a kind and gentle person. You strike me as the Fi-subtype

Hey dude. Yeah i work as a support worker. You're 100% right about my boosted Fi, its absolutely the function i notice myself using most of the time and i have also noticed how on this forum I interpret everything through the lens of my relationships with others. Although there are some reasons to think i'm more Ne leaning too. I actually could be right down the middle. I won't hijack this thread, i've posted enough about myself on here already. Be cool to PM you though!

As a side note: I've seen ILI-Te(strenghtened Te+Se) do the "I gotta put extractors on the BA and high flow catalitic converter" way more often than SLI-Te. You sure the first guy is SLI? SLI-Te are more "nerdy" in general than that.

I don't actually know many ILI-Te's. I believe i met one at uni and he was incredibly interesting dude. This guy is 100% SLI, to the point where if he wasn't i'd just abandon everything i believed about socionics forever. Hes kind of nerdy for sure, he plays a bit of Kerbal space program and just sent me a message about a new graphics card he got. He was quite aggressive when younger, e.g he has knocked out quite a few people in the past. He used to drive a turbocharged car and was very talented at driving fast which saved my life a few times. Was a competitive downhill mountain biker and now does stuff with pit bikes. He used to be an arborist cutting down trees.

I'm sure a lot of those things aren't type related on the whole he seems much more SLI to me. But i'm open to having my mind blown

Here an example, the character is a SLI-Te hacker(sp/sx and mentally ill, but you started it with Mr Inbetween) and the shrink probably EII

Great show

John Krasinski & Emily Blunt would be an example of a IEE-Ne(John) & SLI-Si(Emily) couple. They made the movie "A Quiet Place" together.

Yeah i'm definitely not very much like him at all. Quiet place 2 should be out if it weren't for Rona. Check out a youtuber called Tobuscus. I remember thinking that he could be a strong IEE-Ne and he is way over the top.

[lkdhf qkb]

If you say he's SLI, I believe you, you know him better. Feel free to PM me!
I watched a video of Tobuscus and I think he's ILE-Ne. He has the fake "look at me I'm hilarious" laughter that I associate to Fe HAs. A lot of Ti questioning also in his videos. And trying to become an known Youtuber by doing an oneman show with light sarcasm? So alpha quadra