Telling apart ESI-ISFj vs EII-INFj

[Amber]

Hi Nessie, I just want to interject here. I was reading this for EII differences with ESI and have only ever seen this one conversation between you and @Maritsa, here. Just so you don't feel too picked upon: I also, as IEE, notice when other people say they are my type, and when I get a sense of their personality from what they write here and it does not feel like my identical at all, I also start making comparisons and noticing particularly the differences, and try to figure out why - which usually leads me to what type I think they are instead.

Your posts in this thread do not make a type jump out at me, but I would say (and IEEs can make pretty accurate snap judgments on these things) that you are not an ESI, for sure. But could be SEI! Oh, boy, as soon as I get on a mystery like this it stays on my mind till I figure it out. I could see you being EII, too, however: Maritsa questioning it makes me think there might be something up with that. I should tell you that I feel about 100% that Maritsa is EII. I have at least two EIIs I am quite close to IRL, and Maritsa is so much like them. EII is my Mirror, and I relate with all the EIIs I know including Maritsa pretty much exactly like one does with a Mirror.

Now, SEIs are nice, and you are nice. Also SEIs are more flexible than EII, and you do seem to have that flexible, open quality. SEIs I know do NOT like to cut people off, and do not like to make negative judgments about people based on some bad behavior of theirs, whereas, an EII will. And, an EII will certainly cut someone right off who has offended them. (Although, many are not aware that an EII will graciously let them back "in" with a sincere apology).

You say here, above, of Maritsa: I see those qualities as the "J" qualities I expect in EII. Realize that the rational/irrational (j/p) differences are a big irritant in relations. So if you are a SEI, you will likely find it a negative and forceful irritant when EII demonstrates her confident rationality.

I'm not saying I have typed you, Nessie, but I am just wondering if the following describes your interactions with Maritsa, who would be your Benefactor if you were a SEI:

"Relations of Benefit may appear even and conflict free. Usually it is the Benefactor who initiates the contact. Partners can even feel some kind of spiritual connection between them. However, relations last only as long as the Benefactor has something to give and the Beneficiary has need of it. If this major condition is no longer fulfilled, relations enter quite an unpleasant stage of their development. The Beneficiary may begin ignoring the Benefactor completely or they may start to accentuate too many of the Benefactors inability, provoking arguments and quarrels. Finally, when the Benefactor is in a superior position to the Beneficiary, it can work quite well, but not when it is the other way round! "

also this:

"The Beneficiary can see the weakness of the Benefactor, wishing to help their partner to strengthen themselves. Because the strongest point of the Beneficiary is the weak and unconscious point of the Benefactor, the Beneficiary is convinced that they are able to help. However, when the Beneficiary tries to help, the Benefactor usually refuses the help without any good explanation. The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary. This may be sometimes unpleasant and even irritating for the Beneficiary."

(Personally, I can see you as a Beneficiary in your relating with Maritsa. And its a relationship position I am familiar with, having been married to my Benefactor in the past).

I don't recommend typing someone by intertype relationships after you heard them utter 2-3 replies in a conversation. She has a typing thread of her own and EII is the most likely option (VI included).

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't recommend typing someone by intertype relationships after you heard them utter 2-3 replies in a conversation. She has a typing thread of her own and EII is the most likely option (VI included).

I agree, I am only suggesting what seems right to me. IEEs are known to size up psychological matters rather quickly, so, that could support my guesses having a good chance to be right. Though I am not feeling solid on it, I do think SEI would be a darn good possibility for Nessie. But my Irrationality will always make me suspend judgment, til its a very, very sure thing.

I do think this little conversation here represents a lack of meeting of the minds, which says "not Identicals" to me. So since I have known Maritsa here long enough to feel quite, quite sure of her type, I am looking openly for what other type Nessie might be...

[Beautiful sky]

I'm not sure how to compare the ISFj and INFj in terms of being pushovers. I find ISFj's tend to be more so pushovers, for want of a word, at work, they try to work hard and make a point of trying not to complain, hoping people will notice and appreciate them trying to work hard, and they try to be somewhat unobtrusive in a general social gathering.

They're not really push overs at home however, and will talk about where they've seen themselves been wronged to to friends. And in all situations they tend to accumulate things and then complain about them or act in a vengeful way later.

INFj's i've known tend to go with the flow more. If they don't like someone they tend to ignore or avoid them, rather than express their unhappyness through attempts for sympathy and direct emotional attack in their personal life like some ISFj's.

I find INFj's are more easier to forgive you, and ISFj's can hold grudges for longer. But you're more likely to know an ISFj is annoyed.

Just my observations.

I agree with this anf it equates well with the story on me and my ESI cousin

[Eliza Thomason]

Haha, thanks for saying I'm nice
I felt like an asshole. I honestly felt I shouldn't have even responded to her, but I thought it rude not to. I didn't want to be one of those immature people that get into fights on Internet forums. I was trying to be an accepting adult.

Well that says a lot nice about you. In the dichtonomies there is one set that hates arguing and fighting. Someone just mentioned it like this week. I don't know which dichtonomy it is, but you and I are both on the side that hates getting into fights!

Yeah, I felt really awkward coming on this site, sharing an insight and feeling harassed and argued with.

Oh, dear, this is a flaw here at 16types. Newbies getting harassed. Well some of us have been here long, and others even longer, and get comfortable and just say what we want. Consider there are 16 types and 16 relationship types, so your "just being you", and me just being me, and Maritsa just being Maritsa, etc., etc., is going to be extremely annoying to some of the types. You are hitting some people's polars each time you are truly being "yourself". I think that getting comfortable with your own way of seeing things, as we get to be particularly on this forum where somewhere on this site we get validated just for being ourselves, makes some of us bold in saying what we find irritating. (Maybe particularly those who are not repelled by internet fighting?).

However, IRL, especially for instance in the workplace, when you really annoy someone by just being you, they keep it inside, and perhaps snipe about you to others behind your back, which is crappy. Here its all on the table, and its interesting to see what types treat you what way, and it can be a good lesson for IRL. (You will think, "he looks like my Conflictor, i think i will be a little cautious here...").

I also was shocked when I first started here how rude some could be. I would pour my heart out over a matter and there woudl be these name- calling posts. Amounting to "You are stupid", except very crudely put. Very unlike anyone I deal with IRL. I would have to remind myself that most people were nice, or helpful, and it was just a few rude ones. I am sure that is the case with you. (And later I reminded myself something I learned about rude people. They are scared...).

But also those not trying to be rude can be rude when they are hitting a sensitive side. And we all have sensitive sides. And a Rational being so sure of themselves can easily offend an Irrational.

I honestly don't mind at all if people make other suggestions for my type.

That's nice! Well, I learned the hard way here, as a person who does not like fighting, that I can make some people fighting mad when I say, "I don't think you are my Identical! Here is all the reasons why!"

I just don't like feeling forced into things like "You are SEI.", "I am EII. You are not EII.". I find that rude.

Its a short clipped way that Rationals have. My LSE-ESTJ brother is an Activity relationship with me, and we get along great most of the time (particularly something activity related!) but his curt sureness when we are in disagreement at times can really raise my hackles.

Like you, I want to get along with everyone and when I am turned off by a person I like to remind myself that there is more there than meets the eye. Knowing types and relationship-types really helps me with that. (And sometimes its not just about type, its also can be some other good psychological reason).

I'd much rather have some suggestions or be directed in the right direction, politely. I don't appreciate being argued with, when my words are twisted, or feeling manipulated. I felt I tried not to let my true judgements of Marista be known, but a few did slip out (as you saw in what you quoted). I couldn't help myself.

I think you held your own and its good to express when you are irritated.

Maritsa is Rational and like other EIIs can be quite solid about their final judgement on an opinion of things. I know from a long close relationship with my EII sis-in-law that when she is sure on something and I tend to disagree, I often find out later she had good reason for her "final judgement" on a thing. Just at the time she cannot always give a persuasive argument for someone to come to her side on a thing, but she sure knows her side.

When I first started here and had experienced some people being hurtfully rude to me, I also noticed some people being horrible to Maritsa. It surprised me because I respect what she says on things. Perhaps easy for me as its natural to respect your Mirror. But I observed, and saw a lot of the ugliness was type-related. Some were her Supervisors. Also, some of it were Irrationals shocked at the "cheek" of a Rational acting like a Rational. There really was a gang-up thing going on against her and it really was unfair, and likely contributed to the fact that I am permanently biased pro-Maritsa!

Before I joined this site I was quite turned off by her attitude, actually. I feel pretty badly admitting that.

Don't feel bad. Learn something. It might be type related, and totally normal to feel turned off by certain statements made in a way certain types would make them.

Even though my dislike for her attitude was there, I still tried to be friendly with her, thank her responses (which took a lot of effort me to do) but I thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, and figured maybe if I was nice to her, she'd be nice back. I thought it'd be a mature way for me to handle the situation. Well I got burnt. I could have been a lot more judgemental, but I figured if I was, I'd feel badly about it afterwards, I'd feel badly for hurting her feelings, and just generally feel like a mean person. And I didn't want to get in a banter. I don't like arguing with people or feeling like I have to prove myself. It gets exhausting after a while. I find it kind of pointless.

Aw. I totally relate to this. I do think she was just trying to state her opinion, and she must not have realized the stress this conversation was putting you under.

Yeah, I noticed before I even joined that we are nothing alike. I can relate to every other EII I've talked to except her, I noticed right away she was different...Enneagram could play a part, perhaps. I've never seen an EII with that enneagram.

Well you are going to find some people here who think she is not EII and will tell you so, for sure. However, please know, people mistype themselves here! And I do see more than one mis-self-typed EII typing here regularly (and IEE!).

And it is a valid thing to notice, that Maritsa and some other EIIs are extremely unlikely to be the same type. I agree! My opinion is Maritsa is a real EII and so if she and another are clearly not Identicals, then the "other" is not IEE.

Thats my opinion. When you self-type and and you are still learning its good to keep an open mind and consider you might be another type that others think you are. At least then you can check out the Reinins on it (but be careful! For example, Maritsa and I noticed she can be a negative Postivist and me a positive Negativist -- because the Reinin labels don't always fit our pre-conceived idea of what those words mean, so you really have to have a good idea what they are trying to say. Also checking the relationships in your life for the different types - that's a big tell for me. I also think if you are considering between and Irrational/Rational there are some big tells with that. In this thread, you are reading like an Irrational (like me), to me!

She could possibly be EII. I honestly don't care as long as she leaves me alone.

Aw. I need a break too from a person I have argued with that has stressed me. But I like Maritsa, I have to say.

But I did try to find similarities with her in previous post, despite, which she was completely unwilling to.

Again, could be a Rationals way of impatience with discussing a thing that is already decided, in their mind at least. I recently got all bothered by my LSE brother when he did this to me.

But, yeah, I honestly don't mind people making suggestions or trying to help me find my type. I'm very grateful for any help as long as I don't feel harassed. Maybe she wasn't harassing me, but I just didn't like the way she handled the situation, I guess. I felt offended by her argumentative and direct approach and. I just don't like how she goes about typing people.

Well, she knows you are not alone on that one! But I just want to validate that its okay to not like the way someone is dealing with you. Like you said, I don't think she was trying to harass you. However, if you feel harassed, you have just learned something about yourself, you don't like to be talked to in a certain way, and that's okay. Don't feel bad about it!

I do appreciate what you are saying though. I like how you go about it much better.

Thanks! Now I hope I have not bored you. IEEs can be way too wordy for many. So I have learned here on 16t! (I think I read where it has to do with how we get weird with Ti).

Despite all that, I don't hold a grudge against Marista. I feel no reason to be spiteful or vengeful at all. I just find talking to her exhausting. I don't think she's a bad person. I honestly want to get along with her but have been unable to find common ground as she seemed quite unwilling. I generally try to be accepting and relate to others. When others act like they don't want to relate to me, I feel kind of offended, disappointed, and aggravated.

I often like to let my deepest feelings known for the sake of honesty and allowing others to understand me, as I have here....and in the name of socionics

That's important to me, too.

Anyway, maybe that explains why things turned sour in our conversation....I have no idea of what that says of our exchange and typing though...

Well sometimes it all makes more sense after some space.

God bless you, Nessie!

[anndelise]

Hm. In that case I would wonder why they are racist. And maybe ask them why they are racist to get a better understanding of them. I would place myself in their shoes and think of ways which could have made them that way and how I would feel in that situation, which isn't really objective. I'd, however, like to believe it is. Although I don't generally ask people questions as I feel like that would be intrusive and rude unless I'm close with that person. I'm usually pretty accepting of others and their differential opinions while still holding my own moral values. I have my own idea of what is right/wrong but I'm willing to understand why someone would have a different opinion. For example, I don't think it's right to be racist but I can understand if someone has been wronged or treated badly by a certain culture, why they would feel bitter about it while still not being racist myself. I can entertain several different viewpoints and perspectives at a time in my mind while still having my own views, which is why I often have a hard time arguing with people because I can see their side too. I can watch two people argue, not pick a side, and see where they are both coming from, by determining how I would feel in that situation, and use that to find a way to resolve issues between them.

I'll be honest, i haven't read your type thread as of this moment, but i was curious, if you had to choose between holographic-panoramic cognitive style vs causal-deterministic cognitive style, which do you think would fit you better? From what I've seen on this page alone, you seem primarily HP. Looking at things from multiple viewpoints, seeing the different sides of a conversation/disagreement, mentally stepping into someone else's shoes, approaching a concept/idea from different angles, etc.

Though, admittedly this idea is part of the static negativist ring, rather than a positivist one, which you seemed to prefer. And I guess some of what you said could fit CD, too. Like seeing why someone might become racist due to causal experiences. Plus, it's not like a type is limited to only one style. Flipping back and forth between HP and CD can also seem quite HPish.

Actually, I guess the most obvious thing is that you pay attention to what's going on inside the person, and see it objectively rather than basing your perceptions on your own personal feelings about them. Very Delta, imo.

I don't see where those typing you as SEI are seeing DA cog style as a primary. You definitely seem way more static than dynamic. I also see a preference for Te, wanting to know what actions you've done or things you've said that led them to think a particular type for you, and not just being willing to accept that they don't feel you are the same as them or just that you remind them of someone they know, giving you nothing objective to consider.

I'm sorry that you have experienced the haranguing. But you mentioned reading some of the forum before posting, so probably weren't too surprised. Anyways, I won't be around much, but Welcome to Delta.

---
Sorry, I suppose this might have been better posted in your typing thread. If you would prefer I move this to there, let me know and I will do so.

[Eliza Thomason]

Well, as I said, now that I am on this mystery (Nessie's type) its hard to let it go. So @anndelise, you've got me reading up on Static and Dynamic in order to understand it better. I'll share a bit of what stands out to me (though I have not applied it to Nessie yet!). Nothing too profound yet!

My SLI husband is Dynamic while I am Static (Static/Dynamic is one of the things Duals are always opposite in) and what stood out to me so strongly concerning him is this:

- The stories of Statics usually involve one constant main character.
- The stories of Dynamics usually involve multiple main characters.

SLI wrote a long novel (series of 3 books), unpublished, but much worked-on with his writers group over time, and I read it twice. First online, but I had trouble, so I printed the thick volume it to read more comfortably. And still had trouble! I could not keep proper track of the characters. The one I thought was the "main" would disappear for the longest time, and others would come into focus and recede, and I kept trying to connect them to the main, but it was hard to tell who was "main", because it seemed to change as the first main would disappear for long times. SLI did not quite understand why I saw this a stumbling block. When I read the above on Static/Dynamic it made perfect sense. I am a very "main character" type of writer, and reader, and SLI is Dynamic about this. Also another person here (her name is slipping my mind - Kappa, with the cute hat on in her picture) who is an IEI, in her blog has part of a story she wrote. It also involves multiple well-developed characters. Sure enough, IEI is Dynamic, too.

That part about Static/Dynamic is very clear to me. So Nessie, I don't know if that will ring with you if you have not done a lot of writing.

What I want to understand better is how Static/Dynamic uses language. I do not have much of a grasp on that but I want to look it over the descriptions and consult with my SLI on it. SLI is very into language construction. This is said of Static/Dynamic:

"... The difference between Static and Dynamic speech is analogous to the difference between different kinds of verbs in Russian: Static's speech corresponds to verbs of perfect (certain past) kind ("I have made"), and Dynamic's speech to verbs of imperfect (not certain past) kind ("I did"). In English language Static speech corresponds to simple (Indefinite) tenses and Dynamic to long (Continuous) tenses."

I know my SLI can explain that to me (and it will probably take me some time to get it). SLI has been helping his LSI son who is teaching himself Latin and consults with his Dad for his questions and the two of them can talk hours about tenses and things and I have no idea what they are talking about.

[anndelise]

Regarding Statics being only one main character followers as opposed to able to follow multiple characters...

That's like saying that statics can't follow romance stories because those jump between the povs of two main characters.
Worse, is considering that IEE are the psychologist type. This implies the ability to see the client's pov, AND...to help give the client some possible insight into their situation, being able to infer (with sufficient information) what might be going on in the other person's mind/motives/orientations/etc, that might help the client understand the other person easier.
Now, add on things like Family Therapy, Marriage Therapy, and the IEE is having to track more than one person's pov.
Then add in that descriptions of IEE talk about the IEE developing a database of such things, and it becomes pretty clear that IEE, a static type, has no problem following multiple lines/povs of an event/story.

Not to mention that IEEs are capable of not just following their own pov of an event/situation (their storyline), but they are perfectly capable of following other people's storylines of the same events. If a person is incapable of such multi-perspective considerations, then they are not IEE, @Eliza Thomason.

Also, Ne is an abstract element. And it is an object oriented one too. A 4D Ne person would pretty easily be capable of following multiple storylines, and multiple povs.

Add in that IEE are HP cog styles, in which they form their understandings of the world BY bringing together multiple perspectives and multiple angles. Bringing all these together is what helps the HP Ne grasp the essence of the situation, the person, etc. Holographic-Panoramic IS a static style, and it necessarily involves multiple angles/perspectives.

[Eliza Thomason]

Regarding Statics being only one main character followers as opposed to able to follow multiple characters...

That's like saying that statics can't follow romance stories because those jump between the povs of two main characters.

No, not really. I am very fine with that because in a romance, the characters are intertwined. I love multiple character development in a story, or a movie, its awesome. But I want to see the inter-relations more.

Worse, is considering that IEE are the psychologist type. This implies the ability to see the client's pov, AND...to help give the client some possible insight into their situation, being able to infer (with sufficient information) what might be going on in the other person's mind/motives/orientations/etc, that might help the client understand the other person easier.

I'm actually excellent at that. In an interaction, I am receiving and filing away info and integrating it with my understanding and experience of psychological motives, and all kinds of other things, like type. I am adjusting my responses and my content for the particular person (and for where my moral compass directs). I have a large databases always open for new additions for everyone I know and start new "files" for new folks continually! We all do this to some extent of course, but I think IEE naturally takes it deeper psychologically, and can dwell there a long time.

Now, add on things like Family Therapy, Marriage Therapy, and the IEE is having to track more than one person's pov.
Then add in that descriptions of IEE talk about the IEE developing a database of such things, and it becomes pretty clear that IEE, a static type, has no problem following multiple lines/povs of an event/story.

Yeah, I am fine with all that.

In a story, though, I want to see a thread of interconnection to a main character. Not everything has to connect, lots of extra stuff develops other characters, but it also makes it more fascinating to see how they interact with the main.

Not to mention that IEEs are capable of not just following their own pov of an event/situation (their storyline), but they are perfectly capable of following other people's storylines of the same events.

I do this all the time.

...Also, Ne is an abstract element. And it is an object oriented one too. A 4D Ne person would pretty easily be capable of following multiple storylines, and multiple povs.

Yes, I agree, Ne does that. Being able to do follow multiple characters and wanting tie-ins to the main are two different things.

My husband is not a published fiction writer and nor am I so I cannot say if there were other flaws that made it difficult for me in his work. That was just one of the things I noticed. Many characters. Could be his fiction work needs polishing or editing. He has a very readable small published non-fiction work, though.

Add in that IEE are HP cog styles, in which they form their understandings of the world BY bringing together multiple perspectives and multiple angles. Bringing all these together is what helps the HP Ne grasp the essence of the situation, the person, etc. Holographic-Panoramic IS a static style, and it necessarily involves multiple angles/perspectives.

HP is another area I have not looked into deeply but I know it is an interest of yours. We are not on equal ground on this topic...I have nothing worthwhile to add to what you have said, or any useful comments on it. Sounds good, though.

[anndelise]

Further regarding Statics vs Dynamics:

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...s_and_dynamics

Statics
* perceives events in an episodic manner, as seperate packets of episodes, scenes, pictures
* inclined to talk about properties and structures of reality
* transitions jump from one state to another

Dynamic
* perceives events as an unfragmented flow of continuous changes
* inclined to talk of movements and interactions of reality

Ne
- perceives inherent potential in objects
- objects don't tend to change their nature much over time, though circumstances can reveal hitherto unnoticed aspects of the potentiality

Fi
- perceives connections of a subjective, emotional nature that exist between objects. These feelings arise gradually and change little until a significant disruption occurs.
---

What does the above have to do with @Nessie?
Her posts are filled with talk about properties and structures, and her events are broken down into episodes.

 

I know for me, personally, I'd rather smooth out conflict than walk away. For example, if someone is screaming or yelling at me on the phone, I can't stand when they hang up on me because I want to talk it out and come to a reconciliation. I've never hung up on anyone before.

Scene: Nessie on the phone with someone
Scene properties: the other person on the phone is screaming/yelling at her
Event: the other person hangs up on Nessie
Fi: Nessie can't stand that action
Fi: nessie wants to reconciliate
Unchanged aspect of Nessie: she's never hung up on anyone before.

Note: her description is not that of continuous flow of changes (dynamic), nor projecting those changes through time (Ni), nor does she indicate that her perception of this type of scene would change depending on her internal state (Si).

 

Ive known people who have shut people out of their lives (friend, mothers...) and I'm quite unable to do that. If someone is showing a negative attitude towards me, I'd rather try to change it to positive than show a negative attitude back or walk away. I have ignored people before or withdrawn and waited till things have boiled down, though. Sometimes when people won't be reasonable, I find that the best approach.

Actor properties: people who have shut other people out of their lives
Unchanged aspect of Nessie: unable to shut people out of her life
Conditional Scene: someone showing a negative attitude towards Nessie
Fi: dislikes the negative attitude towards her, prefers a positive one towards her.
Fi: would rather try to change the negative Fi orientation to a positive Fi orientation, rather than walk away or be negative back.
Past Scenes: Nessie ignored some (different) someones
Past Scenes: Nessie withdrew and waited til things calmed down.

Note: The last sentence could be interpreted as
Ne inherent potential in objects
Or Ni internal reactions to external potentiality

 

In that situation, I would have to wonder, why the mother-in-law is being abrasive? Is she bitter about something? Is it her upbringing? In my mind I would try to find the root of the cause, as to justify someone's behavior or to understand and relate to them more(empathy). I find it best to find ways to relate (positive) to someone than emphasize on the ways in which I can't relate (negative). So kind of similar.

This is talking about the possible structures and properties of the mother-in-law. More specifically, Nessie is considering the mil's subjective emotional orientations (Fi). And all this information can be used to help her understand the inherent potential (Ne) of the mil, the inherent potential of relating with the mil (Ne+Fi), and/or to close the relational distance (relational property).

[anndelise]

HP is another area I have not looked into deeply but I know it is an interest of yours. We are not on equal ground on this topic...I have nothing worthwhile to add to what you have said, or any useful comments on it. Sounds good, though.

You'll love it. It goes into great detail how negativist+result works. Which is exactly the kinds of stuff I describe that you 'just don't get' about my 'process'.

[anndelise]

This is my problem with Reinin dichotomies: how do I know if I perceive events in an episodic manner (etc.etc.) or as an unfragmented flow of continuous changes? I really have no clue.

First, it's not an 'either or' thing. It's not 'one but not the other'. It's about the proportion between them. One more often than the other.
Secondly, look over times you've described or talked about events. Were you easily able to break it up into smaller events or smaller scenes? Did you describe it in terms of its structure and/or properties? Were you easily able to analyse each scene without necessarily referencing the other scenes?
Or does it all just kind of run together making it difficult to break it up into different parts? Did you constantly use active verbs more than "is/am" verbs? Did you constantly refer to the timing of events and interactions? Did you project the event into the future? How it would evolve in the future? Did you describe a past event as if it was still ongoing, still evolving? Did you focus on the changes and interactions and how the interactions changed the flow of the event?

Then compare the proportions of each to see which style the descriptions mostly consisted of.


Note: for some people it is extremely obvious, they do a significantly larger amount of one over the other. For other people, it's not so obvious, perhaps they would be more obvious in other reinin/socionics/enneagram/etc areas instead.

[Suz]

This is my problem with Reinin dichotomies: how do I know if I perceive events in an episodic manner (etc.etc.) or as an unfragmented flow of continuous changes? I really have no clue.

ditto!

I could see myself doing both equally.

[anndelise]

From the link:

People's expressions usually contain a mixture of both static and dynamic constructions. This proportion can be related to types roughly in the following way:

Static: Ji-Ixxj > Ji-Exxp > Pe-Ixxj > Pe-Exxp || Pi-Ixxp < Pi-Exxj < Je-Ixxp < Je-Exxj ynamic

That is, the statements of Ji-Ij and Pi-Ep types usually contain the greatest proportion of static constructions, while the expressions of Je-Ip and Je-Ej types contain the greatest proportion of dynamic constructions. From this information, one can then make inferences about the information metabolism preferences of a person and narrow down his or her likely type. For greater accuracy, analyzing the equivalent of at least one page of text is recommended. In case when all available material is online posts, it is best to analyze posts that contain blocks of text rather than one-liners.

((Edited to add: basically, according to the theory, the more J you are, the more obvious it should be, the more P you are, the less obvious it would be))

Also, it's best to take writings where they aren't describing themselves...which by definition requires writing about one's structure and property. Even the analysis of Nessie's writings would've been more appropriate if we had a sample of her past writings of events.

[anndelise]

@anndelise: quite a few people in the past mentioned that in telling anecdotes about events in my life I usually was very specific about when these events occurred, e.g. by referencing dates, even if that was not really required to get the gist of the story. Would such a thing count as either static or dynamic, or perhaps neither?

I don't know. Flow wouldn't have a time stamp on it. And Dynamic would likely have a difficult time seeing where the beginning or ending of the event would be to even place a time on it. So impulse says it would be a static property, however, under what context are you remembering the time/date? Like, R, (SEI), remembers approximate times that something happened. I usually rely on him to remember such things, or estimate such things for me. But he also doesn't describe nor talk about events, either. Well, not beyond "it was when she said xyz".

[anndelise]

I don't exactly know which context. Like I said, I would have to replay that proverbial video tape that I never made. Reliable self-knowledge is probably the most difficult form of knowledge.

Do you have any writings where you are describing/recalling an event in your personal life?

[Pookie]

ESIs are all like, You shouldnt do that nag nag nag punch me in the face and EIIs are all like, you should be doing nag nag nag nag nag because nag nag nag nag nag.

Overall though the most prominent examples of ESi and EII differences I have are in parental styles. My older sister and my mom are both types, FI and NE sub respectively.

ESI more concerned on the day to day matters like establishing a schedule and being consistent with rules.

EII more concerned on being consistent with her behavior and what she thinks is better long term for growth.

The ESI kids(niece and nephew) I think are going to have more problems with authority figures when they grow up, and the EII kids (sisters) discipline.

Sorry for the tangent. If you want to tell them apart, tell them what do to. Or ifyou dont want to accidentily make enemies, insist on them telling someone else what to do. ESI will be receptive even if they dont agree, EII will not like the approach at all and dismiss it because their NE tells them that there are things that make telling someone what to do not a well informed decision.