Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
@Samson I did legitimately think you were trolling (or Fe ignoring ESI, but I made a resolution to try not to battle type or be a dick in 2021). Now I think we just have different foundations.

Your take suggests you're typing from a completely different idea of what the types are. I'm using Ausra, Jung, and bits of Strat/Gulenko where they match reality. If youre using https://cognitivetype.com/ we may just have to agree to disagree on what the types are.

Most people on this site are using Ausra, Gulenko, Strat, etc. so I am not inclined to spell all this out on every post. Anyone familiar with aggressor (Se) vs caregiver (Si) interaction styles can sort out on sight which behaviors are being shown or talked about.

The Jake the Snake video tells the story of an aggressor.
The Lanny Poffo video shows a caregiver

Randy Savage wanted real proof (reality) that the snake was not poisonous. He came to Jake to bring the situation to a head directly, aggressively and insistent, not through gradual emotional coaxing or crowd appeal (Fe). Not satisfied with seeing the Snake bite Jake, he made him sit and wait with him for further real proof (reality) that Jake didnt have an antiote. Savage went straight to the source and forced the situation to reveal what was real, right then and there.(Se) You could also interpret this as inferior Ni paranoia.

What the hell, its a New Year, and apparently I've got nothing better to do on lockdown than research 80s wrestlers.

2D Fe is normative ethics. Easy to say, but wtf does it mean in Socionics?

Normative ethics in Socionics means takes its norms from the environment. The environment in this case is 1980s professional wrestling.


First we have to account for

- Acting career
- Anabolic steroid use
- Cocaine use
- Caffeine in massive quantities (he would drink a whole pot before promos and matches)

are all capable of changing normal "Fe" behavior and appearance beyond what is expected of a type.

And on this next part maybe we agree to disagree: Whatever fixed principles or objective standards you use need to keep up with the changes in context. And this context is too abnormal to not consider it. Even if you're using VI alone, the hormones he was taking radically changed his facial and body structure.

What you're seeing IMO is 2D Fe, not 4D Fe

First Source of Norms:
Culture - Pro wrestling itself is literally theater. They are traveling actors. They wear loud colors, wild outfits, and act crazy. He must be visually theatrical as a basic part of the job.

Second Source of Norms:
Role - His character is a villain. His job is to generate hate from the crowd. His gimmick is half macho bully, half crazy savage. He must be theatrical in this particular way of behaving, for his character to work.

Third Source of Norms:
Peers - He is a pro wrestler. It is the 1980s. He wants to be the #1 megastar in pro wrestling. Megastars at the time were on ridiculous doses of anabolic steroids (manic aggression aka roid rage) and/or cocaine(stimulant agitant) Hence the generation of jittery microphone yellers. Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Ultimate Warrior, etc. He must be theatrical in energy if he wants to be a megastar and bring in ticket sales.

Fourth Source of Norms:
Personal Instruction/Direct Mimicry - His father was a pro wrestler (actor) and raised him to be a pro wrestler (actor). He was originally bad at acting on the mic. His brother Lanny Poffo had to teach him how to express himself. He copied the savage theatrics from a 70s wrestler named Pampero Firpo. He cannot work a mic at that level without the gimmick.

These are simply the norms of that context. You don't need to be Fe dominant to yell and spaz out, and the suitcases of money he was making were enough incentive.

Compare his Fe to his peers.

2D Fe - Randy Savage swings between 2 notes with his voice: deep gravelly, and manic strained. 2 volumes: shout and shouted whisper. 2 speeds: slow drawl and freight train.

4D Fe - Lanny Poffo and Matt Hardy both have way more subtlety and texture to their voices and expressions. They can coax out expressions with far more finesse. In other words, their pallette of emotional colors is broader. They have more keys or more strings to play, so they can hit way higher and lower notes. Some people may be functionally blind to Fe, like some people are colorblind, I don't know how else to make anyone see it than to post comparisons. Lanny carves out a niche reading poetry in a nursery rhyme voice and prancing around. He can be silly and make the crowd laugh, he can flirt with his body language, he can play "gay terrified" in-ring. (Savage without Elizabeth can only do aggression, anger, pain, and pause for effect with wide eyes.) Hardy has some kind of multiple personality gimmick street preacher/revolutionary persona who psychoanalyzes himself and gives demagogue speeches that seem to be building towards some epic. (Savage can't emote expressively and tell a cohesive narrative at the same time. Its just irrational barbs around a general theme, reacting to what's happening in the room, and playing off whatever he just said - Se)

If I were to break down 4D Fe as before, obviously they're in the same business environment, so they need to employ theatrics. But that's where the similarities end. Both Poffo and Hardy brought in uncopied, if not original gimmicks. Neither needed help working the mic or coming up with their character's expressions and behavior. Im not sure if Poffo's character pushed sexual boundaries, but he definitely got away with being unusually effeminate for the time. Hardy is attempting to bring far more psychological depth to a character than probably anyone has tried in wrestling. In terms of Fe, they are beyond the norms of their time, in character concept, presentation, and expressiveness (ie. more than just grunting on the mic doing a slightly modified version of some wrestler a generation earlier). Randy is just a more aggressive version of the same. 4D Fe vs 2D Fe.


They have to improvise these characters live 200 nights a year, and make the crowd believe its real. And the characters that are most believable, are just exaggerated versions of the real person playing them. Randy Savage is a mishmash of 2 archetypes, macho bully + barbarian savage, with the volume dialed up to 11. (If its not clear, these are stereotypes of bad Se) The gimmick works because Elizabeth is on his arm. When he is a villain, he is the rough domineering boyfriend mistreating this sweet innocent girl. When he is an anti-hero, she is there to make him human and relatable. The crowd is made to feel there must be something good in him, if she can love him. And if not, they can still feel protective of her. And most important, she could bring the crowd to standing ovations both leaving and going back to this psycho character. This really is not LII at all. Improv emotional manipulation of a stadium of people too much stress on a 1D Fe. Reacting with the perfect emotional expression on the fly during a live improvised promo with a raving lunatic character is not LII 1D Fe.

Elizabeth enabled Savage to believably flip back and forth between hero and villain and back again, and not lose his fanbase. The onscreen relationship paralleled their off-screen marriage. In real life, he was crazy possessive of her, and she was crazy possessive of him. Friends describe them as intense. He had her locked up in like a bird in a cage, and she had him wrapped around her little finger. Mike Tyson was another guy like this. (If its not clear, these are stereotypes of "dark" push-pull NiFe victim behavior and Beta romanticism, not LII-ESE.).

All this is irrelevant if we're on different systems though.
Clap clap clap. All the effort researching power wrestlers paid off. Some high quality explanations here. Everything I said but with more details and much more. Sorry not trying to sound condescending, I wanted to compliment your post because it was so good.