Rioting in Tallinn

[Kristiina]

Jerks and vandals of Russian nationality started rioting in Tallinn and ruined everything in sight. They shout "Russia, Russia...", burn cars, loot stores. What am I supposed to think of them now? I am angry.

There is a monument in the capital where Russians gathered to bring flowers to Russian war heroes who died in the second world war. The Russians invaded and occupied Estonia in the WWII, so it's a monument to them obviously. Well... for years they gathered and brought flowers near the soviet-looking huge statue. And then some people started protesting against the Estonian "natsies" near it. People got pissed off and wanted it torn down.
Recently we had the elections and one party said they'd get rid of the monument and re-bury the soldiers to a decent graveyard. The party won big time! Now they executed the plan and there are about 2000 jerks and vandals in the streets shouting anti-Estonian slogans and breaking and stealing, throwing ignited fireworks and burning bottles at the policemen. They are all about 20-30 yo. They don't CARE about the monument. They just want to rebel. They use it as an excuse.

Russia paid people to do that. 80EEK per hour. It was in the news in the morning. Information was found in Russian communities. They probably want to use it as an excuse now and attack Estonia. But right now I don't have the sense to think about it. I just see red. I wish the jerks moved to their motherland if they don't like it here.

(DISCLAIMER: I don't hate all Russians who live in Estonia. I just hate the ones that SHOULD DIE and the world would be better off without them)

[tcaudilllg]

First suggestion: stop thinking nationalities and start thinking political alignment.

[Kristiina]

Estonia is in NATO and EU. Russia would be pretty stupid to just ignore that.

[KSpin]

My political alignment is the 'Shoot-them-all-now' party. Vote for me?

[Kristiina]

My political alignment is the 'Shoot-them-all-now' party. Vote for me?

no vote.

I found out Russian news web had been feeding Russians the whole day with false news about Estonians vandalizing Russian property (cars on fire, etc). Now they stopped the access to user comments in that news web. They will probably get away with it all. Everything was quiet until Russians started their "vengeance" for vandalizing their things.

[KSpin]

Awww. I was giving out free cake, too.

[Creepy-bg]

that really sucks Kristiina... I hate politics.

[jas05]

Russia is going to be a totalitarian dictature once more. I'd be rather surprised if they elected a pro-democracy president after Putin. He seems to control almost all the media in Russia at the moment.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Apparently someone died cuz of all this - I don't see why the monument can't be moved to Russia or wherever.

[misutii]

Apparently someone died cuz of all this - I don't see why the monument can't be moved to Russia or wherever.

i suppose it would be akin to moving the monuments from flanders fields abroad?

[Creepy-bg]

they actually have a money called the EEK?

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Well, not really - admittedly the Allied forces didn't ask for permission to churn up Belgium, but they weren't doing it with a colonial mindset. I think the people would have the right to request the monuments moved to a mueseum etc., especially after a period of time, but I think people are grateful for their freedom, so they don't mind so much. It's rather different in Estonia - the region is more unstable what with Russia's interference with the pipelines, and Estonia's independence seems less secure than Belgium's.

[Kristiina]

Have you heard any opinions about the monument dispute from other countries (your home country)?

I know the opinions of Estonians and Russians. Finnish news also showed the pro-Estonian objective side of the story, Swedish were neutral, unofficial Latvian and Lithuanian comments are pro-Estonian. Russia is pissed off and is threatening Estonia.

I agree with the opinion of my INFj friend - it was about time the government showed some backbone and stopped kissing Putin's ass. It's a free country and the government of this FREE country decided to move a statue from downtown Tallinn, a statue which praises people for "SAVING" Estonians from the nazis in the WWII. Stalin and ****** actually signed a pact in 1939 where they agreed that Stalin gets the Baltics and ****** gets Poland and some other countries. It was all agreed upon. Estonia was "sold" to the soviet union. There was no rescue of any kind. What they call rescue was that 110 000 people marched into Estonia (current population of 1.3 million) and just took over! They didn't leave. 1940-1991 the soviet union gave us orders. Now we are free and they keep forcing us with diplomacy. They use sly methods - false news, outrageous claims, paying people to riot, paying people to influence Estonian Russians hate Estonians. Russia has been nudging us into the corner for years. Estonia kept whimpering, "we are independent now... Really.". It was about time that Estonia stopped saying pathetic things and actually did something.

[Creepy-bg]

as far as I know they didn't even mention the incident on US news... at least it wasn't in our paper here. I'm not sure about TV news since I tend to try to stay away from it.

[Expat]

It's a free country and the government of this FREE country decided to move a statue from downtown Tallinn, a statue which praises people for "SAVING" Estonians from the nazis in the WWII. Stalin and ****** actually signed a pact in 1939 where they agreed that Stalin gets the Baltics and ****** gets Poland and some other countries. It was all agreed upon. Estonia was "sold" to the soviet union. There was no rescue of any kind. What they call rescue was that 110 000 people marched into Estonia (current population of 1.3 million) and just took over! They didn't leave. 1940-1991 the soviet union gave us orders. Now we are free

Yes, I think that's exactly right.

It doesn't happen anymore since they've died out -- but in 1995 I still watched in Dutch TV the crowds there spontaneously cheering the elderly veterans (including Americans and Canadians) who had come to celebrate 50 years of V-E. The people would say, "we owe them our freedom". And in that case, it's exactly right.

The Soviets - and, apparently, now the Russians - liked to say that it was the same situation for countries like Estonia, Poland, etc. That's rubbish. It was Soviet communist tyranny instead of Nazi tyranny. No Russian WWII veterans would be spontaneously celebrated in those countries.

So the parallel with Allied cemeteries in western Europe is sheer nonsense.

[Jimbean]

I have not heard that anywhere on the internet news either

[Expat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6599937.stm

They end their piece with:

"We don't consider it necessary to hold deep discussions with the Russian authorities over the internal affairs of Estonia," [the Estonian PM] said.

[CuriousSoul]

It is just that Russians can drive their tanks to Tallin in couple of hours, and there is nothing anyone can - nor will - do about it.
So it simply seems to me that Estonians are just asking for trouble - and this not the first time either.
IMHO, the Estonians would do well to imitate the Finns and learn to suck up to the Russians.

[Expat]

It is just that Russians can drive their tanks to Tallin in couple of hours, and there is nothing anyone can - nor will - do about it.
So it simply seems to me that Estonians are just asking for trouble - and this not the first time either.

Since Estonia is a full member of NATO, NATO member states better do something about it - or do you see NATO as a joke? The Soviets didn't see it that way during 50 years. Was the Cold War a joke?

IMHO, the Estonians would do well to imitate the Finns and learn to suck up to the Russians.

The difference is that that worked to keep the Finns out of direct Soviet rule in 1945-91, and that Finland remained neutral. Estonia didn't have that choice.

[XoX]

Riots are more interesting when you have video footage.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBeKUgFI13s[/youtube]

Of course it is nothing compared to a typical 1st of May day (also called "Vappu") in Helsinki/Finland (which is...next week!)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJk1M8HnGGo[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx75gn7b0oY[/youtube]

Well the riot has been on the news all the time partly because there is a lot of daily travel between Helsinki and Tallinn and a lot of people are kinda freaked out about going there. I think Russia is making a rather "impressive" comeback.

[XoX]

Hmm...I probably live closer to Tallinn riots than Kristiina even if I am in a different country or at least close enough. I think there is like 50 miles or something. Of course there is a sea in between

[Creepy-bg]

that may day thing looks like a really fun time

[Creepy-bg]

in that bottom one at 7:01 you can see Pedro/Science As Magic in the crowd licking on something

[XoX]

Hmm...watching the 1st of May videos made me realize that probably more than 10% of all people living in this city are college students or something. Pretty interesting especially during celebration days, lol.

[CuriousSoul]

Since Estonia is a full member of NATO, NATO member states better do something about it - or do you see NATO as a joke? The Soviets didn't see it that way during 50 years. Was the Cold War a joke?.

Well, I sincerely hope you are right, but in my opinion the situation was clearly different. Before the German unification America and the other western powers had large military bases and hundred of thousands of soldiers stationed in Germany - and still the Soviet Union had seriously contemplated a preventive first strike.

Just for the sake of argument: Presuming Putin decides to invade and occupy Estonia, (which he could easily accomplish very, very quickly), what is Nato or George W Bush going to do? Start the WWIII maybe? There is just too much at stake, IMO.

The difference is that that worked to keep the Finns out of direct Soviet rule in 1945-91, and that Finland remained neutral. Estonia didn't have that choice.

Yes, you are right and the issues are complex, but believe me there was a lot of bitterness in Finland too. First Stalin attacked Finland totally unprovoked, in total almost 100 000 Finns died, over 10 % of population lost their homes and livelihoods and had to be resettled within the new borders, and many other issues to deal with too - yet it was quickly realized that you cannot change geography and Russia will alway be Finland's neighbour.

[KSpin]

The main article of the NATO constitution. Any attack on any NATO member is treated as an attack on -every other- NATO member. Would the Russians risk Nuclear war over a Monument? I'd hope not.

[XoX]

The main article of the NATO constitution. Any attack on any NATO member is treated as an attack on -every other- NATO member. Would the Russians risk Nuclear war over a Monument? I'd hope not.

I don't think they will attack anyone. Perhaps just assasinate some people, double the energy price and generally be bitches in all possible forums and so on (they like to play with energy like gas/oil nowadays).

[KSpin]

I don't think they will attack anyone. Perhaps just assasinate some people, double the energy price and generally be bitches in all possible forums and so on (they like to play with energy like gas/oil nowadays).

Roll on the ITER project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

[Expat]

.

Just for the sake of argument: Presuming Putin decides to invade and occupy Estonia, (which he could easily accomplish very, very quickly), what is Nato or George W Bush going to do? Start the WWIII maybe? There is just too much at stake, IMO.

Don't be absurd. What are you talking about? If Putin does that, he will be starting WWIII. Not Bush or NATO. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

Besides, that was the issue hanging over everyone's heads during the whole of the Cold War, when the USSR was much more powerful than Russia is today.

Would the NATO who stood up to the much more powerful USSR yield to Putin's Russia? If so, then indeed NATO, the US, and the whole Cold War were and are a joke, and should indeed dissolve and surrender.

Putin knows very well what he'd be getting into if he decides to invade NATO territorry. It would be HIS doing, no one else's.

[Expat]

What I find appalling, CuriousSoul, is that you are indirectly implying that Putin is entitled to invade Estonia over a stupid monument, and that it would be NATO who'd "start" WWIII if they did anything against it. Unbelievable.

[XoX]

What I find appalling, CuriousSoul, is that you are indirectly implying that Putin is entitled to invade Estonia over a stupid monument, and that it would be NATO who'd "start" WWIII if they did anything against it. Unbelievable.

Lol. You can start a heated argument about anything The bottom line is whether Nato would use military force or not if Estonia was invaded or would they just apply (useless) diplomatic pressure. That would be a good test for current state of Nato. It is funny how much passion you have about correcting each and every fallacy even if it is not really needed.

[KSpin]

If Estonia were invaded it would come down to military force. Nothing else would be acceptable.

[Kristiina]

we have speculated that if there is a war because of it, Estonia will be written in history books and everyone will know where it is. Instant fame! Phrase "one man killed" is often mentioned. The Estonian news said that Oleg stabbed Dimitri during the riots. Dimitri died in the hospital, Oleg is in the hospital waiting to be arrested. Oleg or any close variation of the name is clearly Russian, not Estonian.


Second day of the riots was worse than the first one. 300 arrested on the first day, 600 on the second day. 70 injured on the second day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6602171.stm

[Kristiina]

Very short news from before the riots. Explains the statue dispute and has a Russian fortuneteller saying that there will be trouble.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/3...sing23.article
Pro-russian sobstory about "THE LIBERATOR". Great footage of Tallinn before the riots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DGMydHIcxg

mourning the statue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj0Yaqb8-MY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORZ_zjzRBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRHKk8KaRcQ (very good quality footage of the amount of masses mourning. End is boring)

[CuriousSoul]

Don't be absurd. What are you talking about? If Putin does that, he will be starting WWIII. Not Bush or NATO. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

Besides, that was the issue hanging over everyone's heads during the whole of the Cold War, when the USSR was much more powerful than Russia is today.

Would the NATO who stood up to the much more powerful USSR yield to Putin's Russia? If so, then indeed NATO, the US, and the whole Cold War were and are a joke, and should indeed dissolve and surrender.

Putin knows very well what he'd be getting into if he decides to invade NATO territorry. It would be HIS doing, no one else's.

Basically your argument hinges on the assumption that Vladimir Putin is a man of thoroughly rational temperament and with a realistic view of international politics and the workings of NATO, EU and all the western powers. In my experience many highly educated and well informed young Russians have a world view clearly different from most western commentators. The indepence of the former Soviet republics is not at all considered the self-evident fact of international law backed up by a universal sense of justice it appears to you at least. Rather more an accident of history just waiting to be corrected. It is good to remember that Vladimir Putin is a pure bred product of the Soviet KGB. His narrow nationalistic outlook abundantly demonstrated by both his words and deeds.

To draw an obvious parallel one can consult the ever-so-helpful Wikipedia:

U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie met with Saddam in an emergency meeting on July 25, where the Iraqi leader stated his intention to continue talks. U.S. officials attempted to maintain a conciliatory line with Iraq, indicating that while George H. W. Bush and James Baker did not want force used, they would not take any position on the Iraq–Kuwait boundary dispute and did not want to become involved. Whatever Glapsie did or did not say in her interview with Saddam, the Iraqis assumed that the United States had invested too much in building relations with Iraq over the 1980s to sacrifice them for Kuwait. (Humphreys, 106) Later, Iraq and Kuwait then met for a final negotiation session, which failed. Saddam then sent his troops into Kuwait.

Although no reliable first-hand information on Saddam's appraisal of the situation exists, we can surmise from the prewar standpoint of the Iraqi leader and his interests and the conflicting prewar signals from Washington that the invasion was likely born out of Iraq's postwar debt problem and faltering attempts to gain the resources needed for postwar reconstruction, rebuild the devastated Iraqi economy, and stabilize the domestic political situation.[21]
Saddam Hussein

Is there really any justified reason to indicate that Vladimir Putin is any better informed with regard to the actual intentions of the Bush administration in case of an invasion than Saddam Hussein was before the First Gulf War?

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Dictators are rarely surrounded by independent minded thoroughly rational analysts.

[Expat]

So your point is -- irrational rulers should be allowed to do whatever they want, because if someone stands up to them, they might do something even worse? Why not just say "we surrender, please don't hurt us?"

[Kristiina]

So your point is -- irrational rulers should be allowed to do whatever they want, because if someone stands up to them, they might do something even worse? Why not just say "we surrender, please don't hurt us?"

That is the general strategy. Or at least has been for hundreds of years.

Tallinn was calm last night, but other places were somewhat less calm. This seems to have a great impact on politics, Estonian Russians hate the party that took down the monument, but I wouldn't be surprised if this increased the popular support among Estonians. Yay, I like that party. One other party that has been nr1 in Estonia for a long time, has only showed pro-Russia attitude, which is not much of a surprise, because they have been sucking up to Russia for 10 years... They have been under constant attack for the last few days. They are seriously losing popularity. In a way, I'm glad the riots happened like they did - Estonia needed it to open people's eyes about the Estonian political parties!

PS! No alcohol is sold in Estonia for 5 days to avoid drunken rioters, including on the 1st may.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

My dad's always going about how 'we' (i.e. the British) sold the Hungarians to the Soviets in 1956 rather than support their revolution - I feel guilty about it even though it happened way before I was born . I think other countries do have the responsibility to help in these situations, but things often esculate and get out of control - it's not possible to support every country or to remain impartial, so it's a difficult problem. It would be nice if Nato + the UN were about a million times more effective but that's probably too much to hope for.

[Kristiina]

My dad's always going about how 'we' (i.e. the British) sold the Hungarians to the Soviets in 1956 rather than support their revolution - I feel guilty about it even though it happened way before I was born . I think other countries do have the responsibility to help in these situations, but things often esculate and get out of control - it's not possible to support every country or to remain impartial, so it's a difficult problem. It would be nice if Nato + the UN were about a million times more effective but that's probably too much to hope for.

which do you think is more powerful -
NATO or Russia?
Europe or Russia?
USA or Russia?
Europe or USA?

[Creepy-bg]

Mexico