One Piece (manga)

[Joy]

Now while I agree that this show, from what little you and Smilingeyes have told me about the displayed values, is Gamma, I do not, however, necessarily believe that all of what you wrote necessarily applies to Gamma.

It's kind of heard without having seen the show because you don't understand the context behind the statements I'm making. But I'll try to explain it.

Also, there are obviously going to be aspects of Gamma/this show that apply to other types and quadras... I'm just looking at overall themes.

Funny, I've heard as much from Gammas about Alphas.

I definitely see what you're saying, but "the way the world works" is more of a Se + Ti/Fe thing in this scenario... such as "Someone like you could never become the Pirate King" or something of the like. The idea here is that they're criticizing Luffy's goals as being impossible. Alpha is unrealistic in an intellectual idealist sort of way, but ESFps are "unrealistic" in an obstinate "I can do anything, no matter what I have to overcome" sort of way.

In this scenario, okay, but I could easily hear that sort of talk from Se + Te/Ni just as well. Maybe not in this scenario, but I am not familiar with the details of "this scenario" as well as you are.

Maybe you should just watch a few episodes. (Are you the one who said you don't like subs or long series and that you collect DVDs or something like that?)

He insists that they're idiots for not seeing the value of personal relationships over hierarchal structures.

> and . So it sounds like Gamma>Beta, but is also an element of Gamma.

Hierarchy is largely a Beta thing... Ti + Se. It's a system of power. Gamma doesn't have much patience for or interest in that.

I was not disagreeing, just informing you that there are commonalities between the quadras.

I'm going to have to be stubborn on this one. Personal relationships vs. hierarchal structures is about as Fi vs. Ti as it gets. Yes, hierarchy is more of a Beta thing than Alpha, but regardless, the statement I made has little to do with Se compared to how much Fi vs. Ti is there.

Their playful interactions are Se rather than Ne or Fe.

What are playful interactions of Se like?

Watch the show.

That is not very helpful either. What should I look for if I were to watch it? But I am not that interested in identifying Se playful interactions in cartoons, but in real life.

Basically, there's a lot of teasing and "fighting" amongst the crew. They aren't very "nice" to each other much of the time.

Teasing and "fighting"? That is incredibly vague. Again, such vague non-descriptions could easily be interpreted amongst the interactions of other quadras. Joy, I really want to understand, and I need you to help me with that as best as you can.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm capable of painting an accurate picture of this type of interaction atm. I guess I'll try to think of other examples of this that you may have seen.

Cultural traditions, rules, and social status are totally unvalued.

Other quadras could easily find reason to think that applies to them as well.

Especially Alpha. Regardless, I do believe that overall, this applies more to Gamma than any other quadra... Democracy + unvalued Ti/Fe.

I do not think so, as I believe in this case you are overstating the supposed undervaluing of those things to Gamma. Alpha: Democracy + undervalued Se/Ni.

What do cultural traditions, rules, and social status have to do with Se/Ni?

And they overturn organized crime or corrupt governments pretty much everywhere they go.

Why is this necessarily Gamma?

I'd like to see Alpha do that.

I'd like to see Gamma do that too. :wink:

yeah...

Se + Fi + Democracy + unvalued Ti

And I'd like to see better explanations and reasons why it could not be seen elsewhere.

There's absolutely no reason why it CAN'T be seen elsewhere, but the whole Se + Fi beating Se + Ti thing is a very Gamma theme, obviously. (Se + Ti is referring to organized crime or corrupt governments here.)

Disclaimer: I'm not by any means saying that Beta is evil or whatever... the show does utilize the most negative stereotypes of SLEs and EIEs though, so by necessity my descriptions of why the show is Gamma is going to focus on the most positive aspects of Gamma and the most negative stereotypes of Beta and Fe/Ti.

[Joy]

Smilingeyes, two things.

First of all, we don't watch TV either. We download the fansubs. It's legal.

Secondly, I find it interesting when you look at the dynamics in the crew as they relate to the Obstinate/Compliant dichotomy. Luffy and Nami are both pretty much in charge, but in different areas. Luffy is in charge when it comes to things related to his interests, and Nami is in charge when it comes to things related to resources.

[Logos]

Now while I agree that this show, from what little you and Smilingeyes have told me about the displayed values, is Gamma, I do not, however, necessarily believe that all of what you wrote necessarily applies to Gamma.

It's kind of heard without having seen the show because you don't understand the context behind the statements I'm making. But I'll try to explain it.

Also, there are obviously going to be aspects of Gamma/this show that apply to other types and quadras... I'm just looking at overall themes.

But do all of these overall themes necessarily apply to just Gamma? That is the question.

Funny, I've heard as much from Gammas about Alphas.

I definitely see what you're saying, but "the way the world works" is more of a Se + Ti/Fe thing in this scenario... such as "Someone like you could never become the Pirate King" or something of the like. The idea here is that they're criticizing Luffy's goals as being impossible. Alpha is unrealistic in an intellectual idealist sort of way, but ESFps are "unrealistic" in an obstinate "I can do anything, no matter what I have to overcome" sort of way.

In this scenario, okay, but I could easily hear that sort of talk from Se + Te/Ni just as well. Maybe not in this scenario, but I am not familiar with the details of "this scenario" as well as you are.

Maybe you should just watch a few episodes. (Are you the one who said you don't like subs or long series and that you collect DVDs or something like that?)

Yes, but telling me that I should just watch the episodes tells me that you do not seem to have much to provide.

Hierarchy is largely a Beta thing... Ti + Se. It's a system of power. Gamma doesn't have much patience for or interest in that.

I was not disagreeing, just informing you that there are commonalities between the quadras.

I'm going to have to be stubborn on this one. Personal relationships vs. hierarchal structures is about as Fi vs. Ti as it gets. Yes, hierarchy is more of a Beta thing than Alpha, but regardless, the statement I made has little to do with Se compared to how much Fi vs. Ti is there.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you even following my posts or are you just saying whatever comes to your mind? All I said is that there are commonalities between the quadras in the role and function of Se + Ni. Where did you get this Fi vs. Ti junk? I'm not talking about that here! And of course Beta and Gamma would distinguish themselves through Fi vs. Ti, because otherwise the Se + Ni is the same in both quadras.

Cultural traditions, rules, and social status are totally unvalued.

Other quadras could easily find reason to think that applies to them as well.

Especially Alpha. Regardless, I do believe that overall, this applies more to Gamma than any other quadra... Democracy + unvalued Ti/Fe.

I do not think so, as I believe in this case you are overstating the supposed undervaluing of those things to Gamma. Alpha: Democracy + undervalued Se/Ni.

What do cultural traditions, rules, and social status have to do with Se/Ni?

It deals with how one works their way through said things. Ne/Si often acts as the revolutionary idealistic which opposes said cultural traditions, rules, and social status. Alpha has an awareness of said things, but that does not mean that they necessarily are more likely to respect them. Both Gamma and Alpha are a step removed from Beta.

And I'd like to see better explanations and reasons why it could not be seen elsewhere.

There's absolutely no reason why it CAN'T be seen elsewhere, but the whole Se + Fi beating Se + Ti thing is a very Gamma theme, obviously. (Se + Ti is referring to organized crime or corrupt governments here.)

Disclaimer: I'm not by any means saying that Beta is evil or whatever... the show does utilize the most negative stereotypes of SLEs and EIEs though, so by necessity my descriptions of why the show is Gamma is going to focus on the most positive aspects of Gamma and the most negative stereotypes of Beta and Fe/Ti.

Why though? Of course Se + Fi beating Se + Ti thing would be a very Gamma theme, but that is just because it is Gamma doing the beating. But if anyone should be wanting to dominate the "Beta way" why would it be Gamma? Wouldn't it ideally be Delta? But that is ridiculous, as there could easily be ethics which would exist within that crime. And why is + is necessarily corrupt government? Even Gammas can be corrupt crime lords and politicians. So this is a fairly baseless assertion.

[Joy]

Now while I agree that this show, from what little you and Smilingeyes have told me about the displayed values, is Gamma, I do not, however, necessarily believe that all of what you wrote necessarily applies to Gamma.

It's kind of heard without having seen the show because you don't understand the context behind the statements I'm making. But I'll try to explain it.

Also, there are obviously going to be aspects of Gamma/this show that apply to other types and quadras... I'm just looking at overall themes.

But do all of these overall themes necessarily apply to just Gamma? That is the question.

As a whole, it fits Gamma better than any other quadra.

Funny, I've heard as much from Gammas about Alphas.

I definitely see what you're saying, but "the way the world works" is more of a Se + Ti/Fe thing in this scenario... such as "Someone like you could never become the Pirate King" or something of the like. The idea here is that they're criticizing Luffy's goals as being impossible. Alpha is unrealistic in an intellectual idealist sort of way, but ESFps are "unrealistic" in an obstinate "I can do anything, no matter what I have to overcome" sort of way.

In this scenario, okay, but I could easily hear that sort of talk from Se + Te/Ni just as well. Maybe not in this scenario, but I am not familiar with the details of "this scenario" as well as you are.

Maybe you should just watch a few episodes. (Are you the one who said you don't like subs or long series and that you collect DVDs or something like that?)

Yes, but telling me that I should just watch the episodes tells me that you do not seem to have much to provide.

Sigh. You can look at it however you want to. I'm sick and don't feel like trying to explain something that will undoubtedly be taken out of context. I can't provide the context as well as watching a few episodes would, nor do I have the inclination to.

Hierarchy is largely a Beta thing... Ti + Se. It's a system of power. Gamma doesn't have much patience for or interest in that.

I was not disagreeing, just informing you that there are commonalities between the quadras.

I'm going to have to be stubborn on this one. Personal relationships vs. hierarchal structures is about as Fi vs. Ti as it gets. Yes, hierarchy is more of a Beta thing than Alpha, but regardless, the statement I made has little to do with Se compared to how much Fi vs. Ti is there.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you even following my posts or are you just saying whatever comes to your mind? All I said is that there are commonalities between the quadras in the role and function of Se + Ni. Where did you get this Fi vs. Ti junk? I'm not talking about that here! And of course Beta and Gamma would distinguish themselves through Fi vs. Ti, because otherwise the Se + Ni is the same in both quadras.

Okay..................... Why are you talking about the similarities between Beta and Gamma? Where did that conversation arise from? This particular set of quotes originated from a statement I made which referred to Luffy's personal relationships vs. his opponent's hierarchal structures.

Cultural traditions, rules, and social status are totally unvalued.

Other quadras could easily find reason to think that applies to them as well.

Especially Alpha. Regardless, I do believe that overall, this applies more to Gamma than any other quadra... Democracy + unvalued Ti/Fe.

I do not think so, as I believe in this case you are overstating the supposed undervaluing of those things to Gamma. Alpha: Democracy + undervalued Se/Ni.

What do cultural traditions, rules, and social status have to do with Se/Ni?

It deals with how one works their way through said things. Ne/Si often acts as the revolutionary idealistic which opposes said cultural traditions, rules, and social status. Alpha has an awareness of said things, but that does not mean that they necessarily are more likely to respect them. Both Gamma and Alpha are a step removed from Beta.

I think you may be talking about Democracy now.

And I'd like to see better explanations and reasons why it could not be seen elsewhere.

There's absolutely no reason why it CAN'T be seen elsewhere, but the whole Se + Fi beating Se + Ti thing is a very Gamma theme, obviously. (Se + Ti is referring to organized crime or corrupt governments here.)

Disclaimer: I'm not by any means saying that Beta is evil or whatever... the show does utilize the most negative stereotypes of SLEs and EIEs though, so by necessity my descriptions of why the show is Gamma is going to focus on the most positive aspects of Gamma and the most negative stereotypes of Beta and Fe/Ti.

Why though? Of course Se + Fi beating Se + Ti thing would be a very Gamma theme, but that is just because it is Gamma doing the beating. But if anyone should be wanting to dominate the "Beta way" why would it be Gamma?

Who's dominating the "Beta way"? I don't know where you got that idea from. The main battles in the show are essentially Beta vs. Gamma for the most part, and Gamma always wins.

But that is ridiculous, as there could easily be ethics which would exist within that crime. And why is + is necessarily corrupt government? Even Gammas can be corrupt crime lords and politicians. So this is a fairly baseless assertion.

Read the fucking disclaimer. I didn't write the show.

[Logos]

Now while I agree that this show, from what little you and Smilingeyes have told me about the displayed values, is Gamma, I do not, however, necessarily believe that all of what you wrote necessarily applies to Gamma.

It's kind of heard without having seen the show because you don't understand the context behind the statements I'm making. But I'll try to explain it.

Also, there are obviously going to be aspects of Gamma/this show that apply to other types and quadras... I'm just looking at overall themes.

But do all of these overall themes necessarily apply to just Gamma? That is the question.

As a whole, it fits Gamma better than any other quadra.

Okay, and that works for an answer, but that does not mean that all the themes are necessarily Gamma.

Maybe you should just watch a few episodes. (Are you the one who said you don't like subs or long series and that you collect DVDs or something like that?)

Yes, but telling me that I should just watch the episodes tells me that you do not seem to have much to provide.

Sigh. You can look at it however you want to. I'm sick and don't feel like trying to explain something that will undoubtedly be taken out of context. I can't provide the context as well as watching a few episodes would, nor do I have the inclination to.

Okay, but I am not trying to understand the show, I am trying to understand Gamma quadra. But I will give the show another try, though I do not have the time to do it now.

Okay..................... Why are you talking about the similarities between Beta and Gamma? Where did that conversation arise from? This particular set of quotes originated from a statement I made which referred to Luffy's personal relationships vs. his opponent's hierarchal structures.

I got the similarities from the talk of the show being Beta vs. Gamma. That despite the perceived Ti vs. Fi differences, there are similarities in the exertions of power (will and physical) as well as the role of as the mechanic that traverses Se.

I think you may be talking about Democracy now.

Two different aspects of Democracy. I can live with that as an answer.

Who's dominating the "Beta way"? I don't know where you got that idea from. The main battles in the show are essentially Beta vs. Gamma for the most part, and Gamma always wins.

I mean dominating the "Beta way of life," and not "dominating in the style of Beta," which would be Delta. And are you sure that it is necessarily Se + Ti that is being applied by the enemies or an oppositional Gamma? I know, I should watch the show, but I am just trying to figure out the Gamma themes.

Read the fucking disclaimer. I didn't write the show.

Don't take that tone with me. I know you did not write the show and I read your disclaimer. I'm not even talking about the show! I'm trying to talk about Gamma themes! You gave me themes which you thought are present in the show, and I am taking that and discussing those themes on their own merit as a representative of Gamma themes.

[Joy]

Now while I agree that this show, from what little you and Smilingeyes have told me about the displayed values, is Gamma, I do not, however, necessarily believe that all of what you wrote necessarily applies to Gamma.

It's kind of heard without having seen the show because you don't understand the context behind the statements I'm making. But I'll try to explain it.

Also, there are obviously going to be aspects of Gamma/this show that apply to other types and quadras... I'm just looking at overall themes.

But do all of these overall themes necessarily apply to just Gamma? That is the question.

As a whole, it fits Gamma better than any other quadra.

Okay, and that works for an answer, but that does not mean that all the themes are necessarily Gamma.

Maybe you should just watch a few episodes. (Are you the one who said you don't like subs or long series and that you collect DVDs or something like that?)

Yes, but telling me that I should just watch the episodes tells me that you do not seem to have much to provide.

Sigh. You can look at it however you want to. I'm sick and don't feel like trying to explain something that will undoubtedly be taken out of context. I can't provide the context as well as watching a few episodes would, nor do I have the inclination to.

Okay, but I am not trying to understand the show, I am trying to understand Gamma quadra. But I will give the show another try, though I do not have the time to do it now.

Okay..................... Why are you talking about the similarities between Beta and Gamma? Where did that conversation arise from? This particular set of quotes originated from a statement I made which referred to Luffy's personal relationships vs. his opponent's hierarchal structures.

I got the similarities from the talk of the show being Beta vs. Gamma. That despite the perceived Ti vs. Fi differences, there are similarities in the exertions of power (will and physical) as well as the role of as the mechanic that traverses Se.

I think you may be talking about Democracy now.

Two different aspects of Democracy. I can live with that as an answer.

Who's dominating the "Beta way"? I don't know where you got that idea from. The main battles in the show are essentially Beta vs. Gamma for the most part, and Gamma always wins.

I mean dominating the "Beta way of life," and not "dominating in the style of Beta," which would be Delta. And are you sure that it is necessarily Se + Ti that is being applied by the enemies or an oppositional Gamma? I know, I should watch the show, but I am just trying to figure out the Gamma themes.

Read the fucking disclaimer. I didn't write the show.

Don't take that tone with me. I know you did not write the show and I read your disclaimer. I'm not even talking about the show! I'm trying to talk about Gamma themes! You gave me themes which you thought are present in the show, and I am taking that and discussing those themes on their own merit as a representative of Gamma themes.

lol, okay... it sounds like we're mostly in agreement and you're just trying to understand Gamma. While I do think the show is more Gamma in nature than anything, not every aspect of the show is Gamma as some of the main characters are from other quadras. While watching (particularly observing Luffy and Nami) may help you develop a better understanding of Gamma, if that's your goal, I'm not sure it's the way to go about it.

When I mentioned the Gamma theme it was more of a side comment to point out that it's not a coincidence that many of my typings were Gamma, and it's not because I just enjoy calling everyone I meet Gamma.

[Joy]

Also a Gamma who overthrew a corrupt society wouldn't just leave, they would stay and build and rule. A story about a wandering boy, fighting corruption and oppression moving from one land to another spreading a message of benevolence towards all would be Alpha, not Gamma. Luffy is ESFj.

Have you ever SEEN One Piece? There is no possible way that Luffy is anything but ESFp.

btw, he doesn't travel around just to help people. He travels because he loves adventure and freedom, and because he has a goal. His goal is to find One Piece, the greatest treasure in the world that all pirates want and many search for. The pirate who finds One Piece will become the Pirate King. The reason he helps people is either because he makes friends in his travels, and when his friends need help he'll stop at nothing to make sure they're okay, and also because the villain says and does shit that pisses him off.

And the typical Gamma doesn't generally give a shit about ruling over others. Most Gammas want freedom from society, not to be in charge of it.

[Joy]

btw, I'd recommend reconsidering your idea of what an ESFj is

[Logos]

I want to note that sometimes Alpha + valuing it can become something akin to universal benevolence because for us the world is one big family as we do not value and do not view one person as necessarily more then another.

For Alphas, hierarchy is not natural nor is it desired. + would be a "hierarchy of possibility" rather then a + "hierarchy of power", where a place is available for all.
All birds in our bush so to speak.

Alphas value and strength so far as to protect our individual freedoms, we do not value as a means of control and forced persuasion. Sometimes it is necessary, but the carrot before the stick. For Gamma, it's spare the rod kind of mentality.[/quote]I followed you up to here.

Also a Gamma who overthrew a corrupt society wouldn't just leave, they would stay and build and rule. A story about a wandering boy, fighting corruption and oppression moving from one land to another spreading a message of benevolence towards all would be Alpha, not Gamma.

One Word: Robespierre.

Luffy is ESFj.

I cannot judge.

The question of being strong is not a matter of , we all want to be strong. It is what we wish to use our strength for.

is not really a matter of strength, it has more to do with willpower and strength perception.

[Joy]

You will significantly further your understanding of Socionics if you begin to think of Luffy as ESFp. He's a pretty damn good example of one. He's about as EP as they come, and the Se and Fi preferences are very blatant.

Your ideas of Alpha = good, kind, just and Gamma = forceful, cruel, authoritative are just plain wrong. There are no "good person" quadras or "bad person" quadras. If a Gamma was a "bad person" though, it would most likely be in a less "in charge of everyone" way and in a more greedy way.

Based on the way you would like to view what you consider to be your quadra, I'm curious as to whether you've ever considered any Delta types as possibilities for yourself? I'm not saying that you are Delta (you do seem quite ENTp to me overall), just a thought.

[Joy]

is not really a matter of strength, it has more to do with willpower and strength perception.

Willpower is strength to me too, but I did leave out the strength perception. I would say that Luffy is not neccessarily concerned about strength perception, he's made of rubber and he enjoys biting off more then he can chew.

When has he gotten himself into a situation which he couldn't handle?

Strength perception here means being able to see the strength of objects/people around you... not looking strong... I don't know if that's what you were implying or not.

[Ezra]

What I dislike about anime and manga is the way in which it plays upon every single stereotype known. There is always an SLE in there, always an LSE in there, always an LSI.

The only genuinely original or entertaining anime I've seen is Samurai Champloo. Trigun I s'pose has a certain amount of appeal - stick a modern bounty hunter in an Old West setting. I think Akira is overrated, although it is a good film. I also like the way Tarantino uses it in Kill Bill. Not exactly original, but very, very well produced and executed.

Actually, almost forgot: Studio Ghibli. Fucking masterpieces Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away (not in the slightest bit overrated) are.

There was a good French comic I read called Kogaratsu. It's not manga.

[Creepy-bg]

Oh yes, my understanding of a shonen manga character based on "your" personal perspective is going to improve my understanding of socionics. Really logical here.

this made me giggle +2

[Joy]

You will significantly further your understanding of Socionics if you begin to think of Luffy as ESFp. He's a pretty damn good example of one. He's about as EP as they come, and the Se and Fi preferences are very blatant.

Your ideas of Alpha = good, kind, just and Gamma = forceful, cruel, authoritative are just plain wrong. There are no "good person" quadras or "bad person" quadras. If a Gamma was a "bad person" though, it would most likely be in a less "in charge of everyone" way and in a more greedy way.

Based on the way you would like to view what you consider to be your quadra, I'm curious as to whether you've ever considered any Delta types as possibilities for yourself? I'm not saying that you are Delta (you do seem quite ENTp to me overall), just a thought.

Oh yes, my understanding of a shonen manga character based on "your" personal perspective is going to improve my understanding of socionics. Really logical here.

Based on the short descriptions I posted above, he seems ESFj > ESFp.
I think people are people, good and bad are not so easy to qualify in people.

I don't know if he has preference, he doesn't seem to have that to me. seems to be his leading function to me. Also ESFj is 8th function which means he would have great command over it and uses it all the time.

Anyways, it's a comic character, ESFj/ESFp is not verifiable.

You know how he's always saying something is a "mystery *fill in the blank*" RIGHT after it was explained to him what it is (like the inside of a snake is a "mystery cave", etc.)? That is very ESFp... and not at all ESFj. He's also the very picture of the EP temperament.

I don't see where you're seeing the Fe > Fi... I'm curious as to what exactly you think Fe and Fi are.

Also, he doesn't fit the "careful" attitude at all. (This would indicate a Se > Si preference.)

Also keep this in mind: He doesn't travel around just to help people. He travels because he loves adventure and freedom, and because he has a goal. His goal is to find One Piece, the greatest treasure in the world that all pirates want and many search for. The pirate who finds One Piece will become the Pirate King. The reason he helps people is either because he makes friends in his travels, and when his friends need help he'll stop at nothing to make sure they're okay, and also because the villain says and does shit that pisses him off.

[Joy]

Read the ego descriptions and the short description on ESFj and ESFp. I just don't think Luffy is ego. If you continue to ignore the I've presented, I'm going to start doubting your "gamma" ness.

You can doubt whatever you want to doubt.

The problem with trying to match people to descriptions is that it's easy to take things in the description out of context. Also, because Luffy is a fictional character he's not going to match the descriptions as well as a real person would. He's sort of a caricature of the type he is. (He's the same as Naruto in that regard. Naruto is another exaggerated ESFp... an unmistakable ESFp though.)

I'm not basing my typings of these characters on descriptions of types or functions (btw, it's not a good idea to look at Fi as the 1st function or Fe as the second function when trying to learn about ESFps and ESFjs). It's based on my overall understanding of types and function which is based on my experiences and the overall ideas presented regarding IM Elements and Model A.

[Creepy-bg]

just a word of advice hkkmr, questioning Joy's type (or ness) is going to put her into defensive "I'm not going to discuss this again" mode. Leave those parts out and you just might get a reasonable response from her giving you what you want.

[discojoe]

Read the ego descriptions and the short description on ESFj and ESFp. I just don't think Luffy is ego. If you continue to ignore the I've presented, I'm going to start doubting your "gamma" ness.

You have only presented Ti arguments.

Luffy is the embodiment of an Se-ego type, and, even more so, of an ESFp.

We're not hear to debate the logical structure of socionics with you, or to explain systematically how an ESFp demonstrates his Se/Fi. What we are willing to do is take Te-facts, as accepted by the majority of the socionics community, and use them as evidence for our case of Luffy's type.

Here is my argument for Se:

Luffy is in a constant -- and I mean constant -- state of "go". When he is hungry he tells Sanji to make him food, when he is bored, he impulsively initiates a physical activity with one of the crew members, usually without their prior consent, and usually always of a rough-housing nature. When he decides he wants something, he gets up and goes without any hesitation, no matter how big the obstacles.

When Luffy is angry at a person -- usually a villain -- his response is to "take down" that person, immediately and with brute force. No subtlety or politics involved. If someone is a problem, he calls them an asshole, and states that he is going to kick their ass.

He lives for conflict, or the physical engagement. He experiences pure bliss at being in a battle of forces; pushing, enduring, willing the other person to lose.



Arguments for Fi:


He is more concerned with the bonds between himself and his friends than the emotional atmosphere of his environment. His nakama, Zoro, is a cold and rigid person who is a hindrance to an Fe atmosphere, but Luffy doesn't care, as he is more concerned with the fact that Zoro is his friend who he would die for and whom he can depend on.

To accomplish his "Se vision", which is literally to force his way to the top of Pirate world just to see if he can (because he lives to strive for a difficulty goal) he creates these strong Fi bonds with people who he can depend on to help him. To him, having trusted friends and advisers who can help him get to his goal is the best plan of action. He has literally no Ti understanding of anything. He doesn't see the hierarchy between people and things, and almost makes a point to go against Ti logic whenever he hears it:

Villain: "You can't get to the island in the sky. It's impossible to fly a ship up there. How will you do it?"

Luffy: "How will I know unless I try?"

To him, the only way to know if something can be done or not is to try it himself and either succeed or fail. Things are never universally impossible. They are either things he can do or things he can't do, and if he fails at something, he would cheer on someone who was trying their best to accomplish the same goal afterward. It's all a matter of how much Se force you can generate to do what you want. Complete disregard for Ti in every way.

He decides if someone is good or bad (and if he needs to kick their ass) not by their potential, not by their usefulness, but by what they've done, or more frequently, by the "vibe" he gets from them. Whereas an Fe type would see the value in having good relations with a villain if it meant a positive atmosphere and a lack of conflict, an ESFp, namely Luffy, only sees that this is a bad person who needs to have some justice dished out against them for being such a dick. It doesn't matter how suave or debonair the enemy is, or even if he won't cause any immediate trouble. Once Luffy decides you're a douche bag, you're going down, regardless of the consequences.

[Joy]

I'm not basing my typings of these characters on descriptions of types or functions (btw, it's not a good idea to look at Fi as the 1st function or Fe as the second function when trying to learn about ESFps and ESFjs). It's based on my overall understanding of types and function which is based on my experiences and the overall ideas presented regarding IM Elements and Model A.

I'm not.. through.. the description for ESFj fits, all the IM elements in all 8 location would work for my typing.
It's just that the ego simply doesn't fit Luffy.

Instead of trying to tell me that I'm wrong, give me some . I'm going to need some evidence here.
You're basically saying here, "Trust me.. I'm right." Sorry, I'm a skeptic about these kind of things. And you contradicting yourself. The Wikisocion descriptions imply that a ego type would not be the kind of loyal friend that Luffy is. A ESFj is also exactly the kind of adventurous type that Luffy is.

You have a strong sense of justice and you know well how to actively defend your principals. In every day life you are open, affable, talkative and friendly person and others appreciate and respect this. You are empathic to other people's problems and very good at understanding people's feelings. You will not let others down and you will always help somebody who needs you. You are an excellent host and a good chief. You know well how to entertain and take care of people. You always make the best of your leisure time. You like to take trips and go on tours. You do not mind spending time in noisy and cheerful company, such as dinner parties. You enjoy making others happy.

And by presenting your personal experiences and overall ideas above , I don't know.. are you really a valuing type?

Sigh. Perhaps later. For now I'll just say that if you think that Fi types don't care about or value their close relationships, I have no idea where to even begin.

just a word of advice hkkmr, questioning Joy's type (or ness) is going to put her into defensive "I'm not going to discuss this again" mode. Leave those parts out and you just might get a reasonable response from her giving you what you want.

These days I just don't respond to that sort of thing for the most part. Sometimes I'll post "lol" or something like that, but I never get defensive about my type anymore.

[discojoe]

You have a strong sense of justice and you know well how to actively defend your principals. In every day life you are open, affable, talkative and friendly person and others appreciate and respect this. You are empathic to other people's problems and very good at understanding people's feelings. You will not let others down and you will always help somebody who needs you. You are an excellent host and a good chief. You know well how to entertain and take care of people. You always make the best of your leisure time. You like to take trips and go on tours. You do not mind spending time in noisy and cheerful company, such as dinner parties. You enjoy making others happy.

Lol, way to quote dogshit from socionics.com. You may be making Sergei Ganin blush, but that shitty description doesn't do much for your case.

And by presenting your personal experiences and overall ideas above , I don't know.. are you really a valuing type?

Lmao. She didn't even do that.

[Creepy-bg]

just a word of advice hkkmr, questioning Joy's type (or ness) is going to put her into defensive "I'm not going to discuss this again" mode. Leave those parts out and you just might get a reasonable response from her giving you what you want.

These days I just don't respond to that sort of thing for the most part. Sometimes I'll post "lol" or something like that, but I never get defensive about my type anymore.

yeah, you know what I meant though. It's a good way to end a discussion with you or to at make it not likely to go much further.

[Logos]

Read the ego descriptions and the short description on ESFj and ESFp. I just don't think Luffy is ego. If you continue to ignore the I've presented, I'm going to start doubting your "gamma" ness.

You have only presented Ti arguments.

Luffy is the embodiment of an Se-ego type, and, even more so, of an ESFp.

We're not hear to debate the logical structure of socionics with you, or to explain systematically how an ESFp demonstrates his Se/Fi. What we are willing to do is take Te-facts, as accepted by the majority of the socionics community, and use them as evidence for our case of Luffy's type.

Here is my argument for Se:

Luffy is in a constant -- and I mean constant -- state of "go". When he is hungry he tells Sanji to make him food, when he is bored, he impulsively initiates a physical activity with one of the crew members, usually without their prior consent, and usually always of a rough-housing nature. When he decides he wants something, he gets up and goes without any hesitation, no matter how big the obstacles.

When Luffy is angry at a person -- usually a villain -- his response is to "take down" that person, immediately and with brute force. No subtlety or politics involved. If someone is a problem, he calls them an asshole, and states that he is going to kick their ass.

He lives for conflict, or the physical engagement. He experiences pure bliss at being in a battle of forces; pushing, enduring, willing the other person to lose.



Arguments for Fi:


He is more concerned with the bonds between himself and his friends than the emotional atmosphere of his environment. His nakama, Zoro, is a cold and rigid person who is a hindrance to an Fe atmosphere, but Luffy doesn't care, as he is more concerned with the fact that Zoro is his friend who he would die for and whom he can depend on.

To accomplish his "Se vision", which is literally to force his way to the top of Pirate world just to see if he can (because he lives to strive for a difficulty goal) he creates these strong Fi bonds with people who he can depend on to help him. To him, having trusted friends and advisers who can help him get to his goal is the best plan of action. He has literally no Ti understanding of anything. He doesn't see the hierarchy between people and things, and almost makes a point to go against Ti logic whenever he hears it:

Villain: "You can't get to the island in the sky. It's impossible to fly a ship up there. How will you do it?"

Luffy: "How will I know unless I try?"

To him, the only way to know if something can be done or not is to try it himself and either succeed or fail. Things are never universally impossible. They are either things he can do or things he can't do, and if he fails at something, he would cheer on someone who was trying their best to accomplish the same goal afterward. It's all a matter of how much Se force you can generate to do what you want. Complete disregard for Ti in every way.

He decides if someone is good or bad (and if he needs to kick their ass) not by their potential, not by their usefulness, but by what they've done, or more frequently, by the "vibe" he gets from them. Whereas an Fe type would see the value in having good relations with a villain if it meant a positive atmosphere and a lack of conflict, an ESFp, namely Luffy, only sees that this is a bad person who needs to have some justice dished out against them for being such a dick. It doesn't matter how suave or debonair the enemy is, or even if he won't cause any immediate trouble. Once Luffy decides you're a douche bag, you're going down, regardless of the consequences.

Thanks, discojoe for this.

[Joy]

just a word of advice hkkmr, questioning Joy's type (or ness) is going to put her into defensive "I'm not going to discuss this again" mode. Leave those parts out and you just might get a reasonable response from her giving you what you want.

These days I just don't respond to that sort of thing for the most part. Sometimes I'll post "lol" or something like that, but I never get defensive about my type anymore.

yeah, you know what I meant though. It's a good way to end a discussion with you or to at make it not likely to go much further.

lol

Yeah, sometimes. Lately I just think it's funny though, for the most part. However, if someone like FDG says it, I know he's only trying to insult me by whatever means possible and that the real discussion has already ended. I think hkkmer really does want to discuss this, so his attempts at stirring things up (or whatever he's doing) by bringing my type into question are seen as nothing more than slightly amusing.

That said, I'm still sick and don't have the patience to go into lengthy explanations atm, so it's not going to happen right now.

[Creepy-bg]

just a word of advice hkkmr, questioning Joy's type (or ness) is going to put her into defensive "I'm not going to discuss this again" mode. Leave those parts out and you just might get a reasonable response from her giving you what you want.

These days I just don't respond to that sort of thing for the most part. Sometimes I'll post "lol" or something like that, but I never get defensive about my type anymore.

yeah, you know what I meant though. It's a good way to end a discussion with you or to at make it not likely to go much further.

lol

Yeah, sometimes. Lately I just think it's funny though, for the most part. However, if someone like FDG says it, I know he's only trying to insult me by whatever means possible and that the real discussion has already ended. I think hkkmer really does want to discuss this, so his attempts at stirring things up (or whatever he's doing) by bringing my type into question are seen as nothing more than slightly amusing.

That said, I'm still sick and don't have the patience to go into lengthy explanations atm, so it's not going to happen right now.

I hope you get well soon. Being sick sucks

[discojoe]

He is not proactive in his "take down". 8th function.

Before I can respond, could you clarify what you mean by "proactive"?

This is consistent with his rough-housing, when he does it impulsively with his crew, he does it for fun.

Wait, you're saying he rough-houses impulsively with his crew... and that's an argument against ESFp?

And you said... "When Luffy is angry at a person".... this is the thing about his right. When he's angry, when he wants to have fun.

???????????????

[discojoe]

It's his crew. He feels a responsibility to his crew. He's the captain, this is his crew, they're going to get the One Piece.

What? Any good captain would feel responsibility toward their crew, but what I said was more complex than that and referred to information elements.

His menagerie of shipmates have different ethical beliefs and goals, they are all different,

Their ethics differ very little, and in trivial ways. I'm only up to Skypeia, but so far there haven't been any major ethical conflicts between the crew whatsoever.

althrough Luffy is against doing what many of his crew would do, he is still friends with them. He respect that they're different, but the bonds between them remain.

This has nothing to do with socionics, unless you've left something out I'm missing.

Static Ethics.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that static ethics = Fi.

Then there's Luffy's hat. The amount of emotional investment he places in his hat is something leading would do.

How so? It's really starting to sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

Luffy's response is not a response, it's a response.

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. I recommend you check out Rick's site.

Someone says "Why?"... the response is "Why not?" Wind-mill tilting and Alpha Quadra goes together.

Except, that's not what was said... at all.

Anyways it's a manga, people can interpret it the way they read it.

Nice cop-out.

[Joy]

When Luffy was sitting in a tavern watching pirates drink he was a little kid.

[Joy]

Okay. Time to agree to disagree.

[Joy]

I hope you get well soon. Being sick sucks

Thanks. :-) I feel better now than I did yesterday at this time, so hopefully I'm on my way.

[discojoe]

Sigh, what an idiot.

[Ezra]

I think hkkmer really does want to discuss this, so his attempts at stirring things up (or whatever he's doing) by bringing my type into question are seen as nothing more than slightly amusing.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I don't think "hkkmer" would be too happy.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

lol Ezra you're cute.

How old are you btw?

[discojoe]

lol Ezra you're cute.

A/S/L?

[Khamelion]

ONE PIECCCCEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LoL @ hkkmr if he was typing the Luffy from the show! ( didn't read the whole dispute)



i agree with the original typings except Vivi is teh EIE more than IEI IMO

and Curo, LII....good call.

No wonder Buggy is idiotic and annoying....


lol @ the SLE bad guys, i was noticing this too but trying to talk myself out of it. but you can't deny most of their SLE-ness...

I'm having a really really really hard time NOT liking Smoker....I'm okay with SLI :]

sexy picturessss

mmmmm Zoroooo

















lol....i have other luffy pictures too but im done lol



ONE PIECCCCCCE!!!!

[discojoe]

Monkey D. Luffy - SEE

Roronoa Zoro - SLI

Sanji - ESI

Nami - LIE

Usopp - IEE

Toni Toni Chopper - IEI

Franky - SLE

Brooke - ILE

Portgas D. Ace - ESI

Red-Haired Shanks - EIE

Blackbeard - LSE

Whitebeard - LSI

Boa Hancock - ESI

Gecko Moria - ILE

Don Flamingo - SLE

Aokiji - LSI

Jinbei - ILI

Dracule Mihawk - LSI

Bartholomew Kuma - LSI

Crocodile - LSI (the show tends to make bad/antihero/morally gray characters LSI)

Buggy the Clown - EIE

[Morcheeba]

Never heard of the show. Is this another one of your homoerotic fantasies?

[discojoe]

It's manga/anime. One of the absolute best.

[Crispy]

My SLI sister has started watching this show a week ago. I think I may soon watch a few episodes and look out for types as well.

It's manga/anime. One of the absolute best.

Better than Berserk?!

[Tarnished]

Luffy - the most obvious SEE fiction character I've ever seen. The most stupid captain/leader, but also the one who can make me go on an adventure with him no matter what.

Zoro: LSI
Nami: SLE
Sanji: I don't know, SxE?
Robin: LII? SLI?
Carot: IEE
Chopper:IEE
Franky:SLE

Kid: SLE
Law: LSI

Roger: SEE
Kaido:SLE
Big Mom: ESE
Mihawk: LSI
Whitebeard: SEI?

Blackbeard: Surely a Gamma. ILI? LIE?
Akainu: LSE?
Garp:SLE
Macro: SEI?
Katakuri: LSI

Well, most of the character in this manga are Se user. Too much LSI and SLE