Tutorial: how to get along with SEIs-ISFps

[xyz]

I guess living a balanced live is cliché

[Mediator Kam]

Estoy buscando una forma de amor,
nuestro camino no está el mejor.

[Rubicon]

Yeah, I've heard that aspartame is deadly too. Maltltol (as a sugar substitute) is sposed to be alright for you - actually all the sugar alcohols like polyol, lactitol, sorbitol, xylitol- they're naturally occuring (in plants) apparently and they can only be partly digested, and therefore don't have as much impact on your blood sugar as regular sugar does.

That said, I think you've got it right, LokiVanguard. Moderation is good.

[theMime.]

I prefer very to-the-point discussions. When I disagree with someone, I just say, "no, you're wrong." and explain why they're wrong. Of course I can't do that with everyone. Sometimes I just have to "soften" my choice of words.

The Mime, you say you'd rather be with "genuine" people, but then you go into saying that people should choose their words. If you hear me saying anything along the lines of, ""I'm concerned that you don't have the right information...", you can assume I'm hiding my real reaction and giving you a fake softened reaction. I'm already leaving some things unsaid. With ISFps it's usually the easiest to think long and hard before I voice any opposing opinions. This is why I usually just end up seemingly agreeing with everything they say. Call it fake if you want, but I say I'm just avoiding conflict.

Ok so I came back and re-read this and thought about what you said more and thouht about what chopin said and this is what I've got:

I think I understand where you're coming from better now (correct me if I'm wrong though). I definitely wouldn't call avoiding a topic "being fake." It's just avoiding conflict, like you said. And it really isn't fair of me or any other ISFp to expect others to be so tactful with us. Being tactful is what us ISFps are designed for...I'm constantly thinking about how I'm wording things or topics to avoid so I won't cause waves...it's natural for me...not fake. BUT it's not natural of others so it's not really fair to expect that of them. Like if someone says something and I think it's the dumbest statement in the world I won't be like "That was the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!!" I'll be like, "Are you sure about that?" That's just what's natural for me but it might be unnatural for others.

"With ISFps it's usually the easiest to think long and hard before I voice any opposing opinions. This is why I usually just end up seemingly agreeing with everything they say"

And I don't blame you at all for just avoiding certain topics in general because taking the time to choose your words so carefully is probably really time consuming.

So a lot of us ISFps have very strong beliefs on certain things and unfortunately we won't always be very open to discussion about it (I personally always try really hard to be though) if it's not important then you might want to just avoid it but if it is really important (like talking someone out of suicide) then with the right tactfulness it's most likely you'll be able to get through to whoever you're talking to. Not that so much tactfulness should be expected but if you really need to get through to an ISFp then tactfulness (like wording, tone, etc.) is a tool that you can use.

haha
sorry if you already know about all this! (I bet you do)
I just felt like I had to say it just in case.

ISFps aren't all entirely unreasonable.
=)

[Rubicon]

I think I understand where you're coming from better now (correct me if I'm wrong though). I definitely wouldn't call avoiding a topic "being fake." It's just avoiding conflict, like you said. And it really isn't fair of me or any other ISFp to expect others to be so tactful with us. Being tactful is what us ISFps are designed for...I'm constantly thinking about how I'm wording things or topics to avoid so I won't cause waves...it's natural for me...not fake. BUT it's not natural of others so it's not really fair to expect that of them. Like if someone says something and I think it's the dumbest statement in the world I won't be like "That was the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!!" I'll be like, "Are you sure about that?" That's just what's natural for me but it might be unnatural for others.
=)

Great minds think alike!

[Mediator Kam]

Like if someone says something and I think it's the dumbest statement in the world I won't be like "That was the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!!"

That is incredibly mean, but still.

I'm constantly thinking about how I'm wording things or topics to avoid so I won't cause waves...it's natural for me...not fake.

If people can't accept me who I am, I refuse to play games with them and try to alter my content.

[theMime.]

That is incredibly mean, but still.



If people can't accept me who I am, I refuse to play games with them and try to alter my content.

there are many different ways to say the same the thing. I never said anything about content, just wording.

[theMime.]

That is incredibly mean, but still.



If people can't accept me who I am, I refuse to play games with them and try to alter my content.

yup. mean. bad example. i'm not saying it's ok to be mean. i think everybody should be respectful of each other.

[Jimbean]

I can get along with ISFp's alright. But I fail to see how this relation is supposed to be special in any way. I mean, granted, you folks are interesting, and it is always good to have a conversation, but I don't understand how it is "duality."

[xyz]

That is incredibly mean, but still.



If people can't accept me who I am, I refuse to play games with them and try to alter my content.

It's called Tact sir. Mime's got loads of it.

[theMime.]

I can get along with ISFp's alright. But I fail to see how this relation is supposed to be special in any way. I mean, granted, you folks are interesting, and it is always good to have a conversation, but I don't understand how it is "duality."

yeah that confused me too first.
try getting to know an SEI on a deeper level.

[theMime.]

Haha.. you don't want to fight at all...

No. Of course I don't want to fight.
But I'm not just agreeing with things to avoid conflict. I mean I'm not lying about what I believe.
I really do agree with Kamangir about that statement being mean.
And there's a difference between "fight" and "debate/discuss"

I have views of my own of course and I'm not going to change or lie about them. See:

I am:
* Pro life
* Independant (slightly more democratic than republican though)
* Against war
There's a whole bunch more stuff but I can't think of it right now.

[theMime.]

oops.
I didn't meant change like that.
I meant that I'm not going to say that my views are one way when really they're another way. That's what I meant when I said I'm not going to change my views.

I might change my views...some are pretty much set in stone but I haven't made my mind up about a lot of things.

[Mediator Kam]

And there's a difference between "fight" and "debate/discuss"

Maybe for us, but when you discuss with some types, it can easily change into an argument. Especially when the person tried to overpower you with their will and straw man arguments. That makes me really angry.

[Rubicon]

I was thinking ... when I'm in an argument about something intellectual or conceptual/ abstract, my emotions are not engaged at all - therefore I don't see it as serious at all. I mean I may have definite opinions about the topic and think 'how on earth can they believe that', but at the end of the day, I'll prob just thank the other person for a bit of amusement and think no further about it. In values-related discussions - ethical topics which I feel strongly about - my emotions are very much involved - these are the issues I don't care to argue about. I think this is because they can't be proven - the only reasons you can give for believing them is that you just do - they are innate. So it's in these situations that I'll avoid conflict because IMO there's nothing to gain by an argument about issues which are subjective. I don't think there is 'one set of values' which are right - so my attitude is 'I have mine, and you have yours' -let's just respect that. And I really do genuinely respect that - that is not 'being fake' or cowardly. Anyway ... I was just thinking that maybe this is the reason that we can't seem to make up our mind on this thread about whether we do or don't mind argueing. It's prob just depends on whether it's an ethical or a intellectual-related discussion. Does this make sense?

Oh - one more thing - I was just thinking that maybe it's the opposite for Te/Ti types - maybe they feel more personally threatened by intellectual arguments than ethical ones?? I don't know - what do you people think? Could be the reason why ENFj v. ISFp arguments don't go so well - because any arguments we have will prob be Fe-related ones - about ethical topics which are prob a sensitive area for both of our types.

[theMime.]

Does this make sense?

Yes.

[xyz]

arguments bore me

[Mediator Kam]

Does this make sense?

sure, but I believe that everything can be discussed/argued, including ethical ideas. I believe what I believe because I am convinced of it. Therefore, I should be able to convince others. Just saying.

[Rubicon]

Originally posted by Kamangir
"sure, but I believe that everything can be discussed/argued, including ethical ideas. I believe what I believe because I am convinced of it. Therefore, I should be able to convince others. Just saying."

Yeah - I agree with you. Come to think of it, when I said I didn't like arguing about them, I think it's more because I get too emotional about some issues and so take the easy way out by walking away. Should stop doing that ...

[Rubicon]

My only problems with ethics usually usually involve someone forcing a system of ethics on others.

That's why I love you, dual

[Mediator Kam]

That's why I love you, dual

I thought ISFp's would have no problem fending off ethical attacks, because our ethics are always the greatest, even if they are seriously flawed.

[Rubicon]

I thought ISFp's would have no problem fending off ethical attacks, because our ethics are always the greatest, even if they are seriously flawed.

You make us sound like snobs.

Still ... it's not pleasant to be under attack no matter how well-armed you are. Do ethical attacks not bother you?

[Wittmont]

I have an ISFp boss, and now the shit has hit the fan at work :/

She is in some weird kind of denial and pretends everything is ok, yet at the same time she has turned truly nasty against some people she believes are stirring up crap (they are not). They want to solve problems at work, but she sees any such thing as a personal attack on her. And then she retaliates viciously. Consequence, no problems get solved...

My work place is a socionics mess with people of all quadra's supposed to get along, and they don't really (too few Beta's though to create a nice mood ). The ISFp boss wants everything to go along as before, in the same old tried and tested procedures, any attempt at changing things are shot down instantly. The company is doing well and needs to grow and adapt in some ways. Yet the work burden for some people has doubled or tripled yet they are expected to carry on like before. You can't go past her to her own bosses, because her version of things are just totally removed from reality and the bosses in this company look out for each other first and foremost.

Oh well, this has been brewing for two or three years now and will get really ugly soon. I am not caught up in it directly, I actually get along with her well usually, as I tend to do with ISFp's. But the feel of the place is just so poisonous now and it will take months to get it sorted if it can be sorted anymore >_<.

Ugh.

[theMime.]

I have an ISFp boss, and now the shit has hit the fan at work :/

She is in some weird kind of denial and pretends everything is ok, yet at the same time she has turned truly nasty against some people she believes are stirring up crap (they are not). They want to solve problems at work, but she sees any such thing as a personal attack on her. And then she retaliates viciously. Consequence, no problems get solved...

My work place is a socionics mess with people of all quadra's supposed to get along, and they don't really (too few Beta's though to create a nice mood ). The ISFp boss wants everything to go along as before, in the same old tried and tested procedures, any attempt at changing things are shot down instantly. The company is doing well and needs to grow and adapt in some ways. Yet the work burden for some people has doubled or tripled yet they are expected to carry on like before. You can't go past her to her own bosses, because her version of things are just totally removed from reality and the bosses in this company look out for each other first and foremost.

Oh well, this has been brewing for two or three years now and will get really ugly soon. I am not caught up in it directly, I actually get along with her well usually, as I tend to do with ISFp's. But the feel of the place is just so poisonous now and it will take months to get it sorted if it can be sorted anymore >_<.

Ugh.

are you complaining or asking for help?

[theMime.]

Maybe it isn't fair to expect so much tactfullness from others but if people absolutely must debate topics then now they know some tips that might help when debating things with an ISFp.

But how much does it reall matter though? None of my relationships are based on how well me and the other person can debate a topic.

[theMime.]

And I kinda got the vibe that Kriistina was just like "ISFps are so unreasonable that you can't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. All you can do is "smile and nod."

I don't know if that's what she really meant but that's the vibe I got and it really ticked me off.



@ Kriistina: I don't know if you were trying to portray ISFps in a bad light or not but I needed to say what I said. I'm guessing you were trying to be helpfull so no hard feelings.


I didn't say anything sooner because I hadn't realized that that's how I was feeling.
It made me angry but also sad to think that people honestly thought that relationships with ISFps just aren't worth it.
Everybody's worth it (I firmly believe this).
But of course my interpretation of what was said is probably off and that's probably not what was meant at all.

But I still need to post this so I will.

[XoX]

@ Kriistina

i always wonder why does almost everyone spell her name wrong and in the same way wrong. I guess it has something to do with how English is naturally pronounced.

[Wittmont]

are you complaining or asking for help?

Both lol. Sorry needed to vent a little.

[Wittmont]

Doesn't sound like a ISFp tbqh.

She is extremely ISFp.

She used to be legendary for her good humour, she was one of those people who always brightened your day, always laughing and kind to everyone. Sadly that wonderful person is nowhere to be seen now. It's like she has turned herself 180 degrees and now she is a carbon copy of a poor corporate boss. She hardly ever laughs, and people avoid her. Tbh sniping/criticism from other types has made her extremely defensive. She also had a personal tragedy in her life that she never dealt with properly, and much of this started back then.

It's not all her fault of course, some other types at work have been idiots and pushed the wrong buttons at the wrong time and they kept giving her PoLR hits at exactly the wrong time and in the wrong way.

[Kristiina]

And I kinda got the vibe that Kriistina was just like "ISFps are so unreasonable that you can't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. All you can do is "smile and nod."

I don't know if that's what she really meant but that's the vibe I got and it really ticked me off.



@ Kriistina: I don't know if you were trying to portray ISFps in a bad light or not but I needed to say what I said. I'm guessing you were trying to be helpfull so no hard feelings.


I didn't say anything sooner because I hadn't realized that that's how I was feeling.
It made me angry but also sad to think that people honestly thought that relationships with ISFps just aren't worth it.
Everybody's worth it (I firmly believe this).
But of course my interpretation of what was said is probably off and that's probably not what was meant at all.

But I still need to post this so I will.

I suppose I've got some unresolved issues with ISFps. Don't expect me to tell you that you misunderstood me and that ISFps are absolutely lovely. I don't like the company of ISFps. And I know they're nice frienly people, but that's one of the reasons. They try so hard to avoid conflict that I have to be extra careful to notice when I've said something wrong. And they always look like I have just said something wrong. ISFps understand things so differently from how I meant them that I don't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. Forcing a relationship with your own supervisor isn't worth it. Really.

"ISFps are so unreasonable that you can't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. All you can do is "smile and nod."
... That wasn't at all what I said. I said that I have not been able to have better relations with ISFps, so I just smile and nod. And where did the "unreasonable" come into play here?

[Suomea]

I have an ISFp boss, and now the shit has hit the fan at work :/

She is in some weird kind of denial and pretends everything is ok, yet at the same time she has turned truly nasty against some people she believes are stirring up crap (they are not). They want to solve problems at work, but she sees any such thing as a personal attack on her. And then she retaliates viciously. Consequence, no problems get solved...

My work place is a socionics mess with people of all quadra's supposed to get along, and they don't really (too few Beta's though to create a nice mood ). The ISFp boss wants everything to go along as before, in the same old tried and tested procedures, any attempt at changing things are shot down instantly. The company is doing well and needs to grow and adapt in some ways. Yet the work burden for some people has doubled or tripled yet they are expected to carry on like before. You can't go past her to her own bosses, because her version of things are just totally removed from reality and the bosses in this company look out for each other first and foremost.

Oh well, this has been brewing for two or three years now and will get really ugly soon. I am not caught up in it directly, I actually get along with her well usually, as I tend to do with ISFp's. But the feel of the place is just so poisonous now and it will take months to get it sorted if it can be sorted anymore >_<.

Ugh.

If this really is an ISFp and things need to be changed up for the benefit of the company...... I know it's stupid but maybe uh maybe getting an ENTp to talk to her would be helpful.....: ) I know I can reorganize things and make something work a lot better pretty easily, and would completely not be a threat to an ISFps authority. Maybe she just needs some good old fashioned Ne in her life to see a new vision of the company. Anywho I wouldn't push it too hard as using socionics as a be all end all answer for things really isn't a good thing in my mind, but since I really don't know the nature of the problems it might be a good idea to see if there are any full of ideas, non-power hungry, slightly humorous good natured people out who have a vision for the company and who you could get to talk to her about their ideas. INTjs welcome as well hehe.

[Rubicon]

I suppose I've got some unresolved issues with ISFps. Don't expect me to tell you that you misunderstood me and that ISFps are absolutely lovely. I don't like the company of ISFps. And I know they're nice frienly people, but that's one of the reasons. They try so hard to avoid conflict that I have to be extra careful to notice when I've said something wrong. And they always look like I have just said something wrong. ISFps understand things so differently from how I meant them that I don't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. Forcing a relationship with your own supervisor isn't worth it. Really.

The fact that we don't immediately agree with you for the sake of it and pretend that we think all your ideas are great show that 'avoiding conflict' is not our top priority. Also, you're speaking of ISFps avoiding conflict and yet you were giving tips in another thread on how to deal with ENFjs and not to annoy them. That kinda of strikes me as hypocritical. Do you want us to be honest with you about our opinion of your ideas or do you want us to say your idea is great even when we don't think it is. But anyway, I don't think you understand our intent. I have to admit that I used to do that with my sister - tell her why her plans wouldn't work and that sort of thing - but that was not because of an impulse to shoot her plans down; I genuinely thought I was helping her. Now I know better and I usu withhold my opinion and just ask her questions about how she is going to implement it and that sort of thing. Have you talked to your ISFps about how you feel? Because I think you underestimate our understanding. Seriously though - if someone tells me Im upsetting them by doing something I take it on board and usu never do it again. I heard through a 3rd party that my sister hated how I always seemed to be negative about her plans, so I never was again. I wish she'd told me herself, rather than going to someone else about it ... but anyway, there you go. I think a bit of communication is all that's needed btwn you and your ISFps.

But I do understand where you're coming from re the supervisor thing. I have a love/hate relationship with one of mine. Sometimes I get so furious with her for trying to control me, but at the end of the day I really feel the need to please her and understand she has my best interests at heart.

By the way, please don't take this as an attack. I genuinely like ENFjs and admire your passion and creativity. Just giving you my honest opinions.

[Mediator Kam]

Having a relationship with anyone isn't worth it. *wink*

[theMime.]

I suppose I've got some unresolved issues with ISFps. Don't expect me to tell you that you misunderstood me and that ISFps are absolutely lovely. I don't like the company of ISFps. And I know they're nice frienly people, but that's one of the reasons. They try so hard to avoid conflict that I have to be extra careful to notice when I've said something wrong. And they always look like I have just said something wrong. ISFps understand things so differently from how I meant them that I don't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. Forcing a relationship with your own supervisor isn't worth it. Really.

"ISFps are so unreasonable that you can't expect to establish any kind of real relationship with them. All you can do is "smile and nod."
... That wasn't at all what I said. I said that I have not been able to have better relations with ISFps, so I just smile and nod. And where did the "unreasonable" come into play here?

I meant that I wasn't going to assume that you were intentionally trying to portray ISFps in a bad light but maybe you were.

The "unreasonable" came into play through my own interpretation...through reading between the lines...that's another reason why I said I wasn't going to assume that's what you meant...I didn't know if you meant we are all completely unreasonable or not.

[theMime.]

Having a relationship with anyone isn't worth it. *wink*

oh.
I meant everybody is worth it to somebody.
hah but that's already obvious I suppose.

[Kristiina]

The fact that we don't immediately agree with you for the sake of it and pretend that we think all your ideas are great show that 'avoiding conflict' is not our top priority. Also, you're speaking of ISFps avoiding conflict and yet you were giving tips in another thread on how to deal with ENFjs and not to annoy them. That kinda of strikes me as hypocritical. Do you want us to be honest with you about our opinion of your ideas or do you want us to say your idea is great even when we don't think it is.
....

I don't know. In the other thread I never really added ISFps to the equation. When I have an idea, I usually tell it to ISFps at the very last moment, when I'm already in the middle of it. I never ask them advide for unfinished ideas. When I tell my mother (ISFp) about my ideas she never comments them. Smiles and sometimes says, "that's wonderful". Or when she comments, it's a slightly distant comment that doesn't help me develop the idea. (e.g. mentions someone else who does the same thing). And sometimes I later disregard the idea and next time she asks how it went and I tell her I didn't do it. *Failiure moment*. So I usually find it easier to tell her what I'm doing but very rarely what I'm planning.

And I guess in the other thread I was initially just saying why Si advice kills the ENFj plan and why Se advice doesn't. It's nice if people use this information to improve relations. And generally I don't see anything wrong with modifying behavior to avoid pissing off people, but I would never call that friendship. This is why I don't see potential for ENFj-ISFp friendship, even if they're pretty and nice.

[XoX]

This is why I don't see potential for ENFj-ISFp friendship, even if they're pretty and nice.

It is not beneficial to automatically dismiss ~400 million people from your lives because your mom doesn't support your ideas in a way you'd want her to. Revenge taken too far or something. It is a lose-lose situation really.

Anyways, here is a potential example which might show that ISFps and ENFjs can be friends and even lovers but at the same time it is never only roses.

I'm kind of guessing that the former formula 1 champion Mika Hakkinen and his ex-wife Erja were ISFp-ENFj couple (the guy i.e. Mika being the ISFp). They were married and seemingly very very close for around 10 years but eventually this year they ended up in a surprise divorce. I think it had something to do with Mika being unable to keep his eyes (or even hands) of other women...there's a beast behind his seemingly peaceful pussyass nature (and the opposite for Erja)



Here are some very personal commercials they did together with Mercedes



I really have to add that I am very unsure whether this is an example of ISFp-ENFj couple but I'm interested in how they VI. Perhaps they are something completely different like ISTp-ESTp or whatever. Hah. I still felt like posting these because I want to know how they VI. I know very little if anything of their personal life or opinions and that's why I'm standing on very thin ice. What is sure is that Mika is introvert and Erja is extrovert anyways. Mika being more irrational and "feelery" in many ways.

Edit: Oh, I'm still working on my carefully crafted PM for you but eventually I'll finish it so stay tuned

[Kristiina]

First of all, they might not be correctly typed. Second of all, I'm sure there are plenty of ENFj-ISTp married couples and why whould I treat it as an example of what I should do and who I should interact with. Third, there are plenty of ISFps that behave pretty much the same and all give me the same vibe. Fourth, I didn't say my mom doesn't support my ideas, I said she doesn't comment them! Fifth, don't call my mother "mom". Sixth, don't make the PM too long. I just said it should be in a PM because otherwise it would have sidetracked the thread. And sixth, if socionics helps me avoid 400 million people who "mysteriously" make me feel unvalued and weak, then by all means I intend to use it.

And I really really can't see you as any Ni type because you always seem to say the things that rub me the wrong way and I can't even figure out what it was exactly. My husband tells me I'm like a radar, because I react to it. Well, it would be extremely odd if the radar suddenly started beeping at a Ni dominant.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Sorry to bump in here, it's true I haven't seen enough of XoX posts althougth so far they seem quite helpful and informative. Maybe he's just putting a bit of thought into what he's going to send you, which if he is I feel is rather refreshing. What type are you dude?

[Mediator Kam]

This is why I don't see potential for ENFj-ISFp friendship, even if they're pretty and nice.

It depends on the type of person you are also. I know a girl who is definitely an ENFj, and I would say that we are friends for sure. We are throw at each other, and my form of makes her roll her eyes(in a good way) and laugh at how silly I am. Yes, we argue about a lot of things(most notably politics), but that has never gotten in the way of the subtle connection we have for each other.

<3