some people have been hinting to me that

[Joy]

I think Joy's aggressive is showing. "If I don't like you, you aren't what you are!"

Not true. First of all, I <3 msk. Secondly, my doubting of people's types is not related to my like or dislike of them. There's only been one person here who I've ever disliked, and that person was typed correctly. Also, I'm not saying that msk and oyburger aren't INTjs, just that I don't know if they are. I don't see the Ti. And I have seen evidence of msk valuing Fi, but I can't really get into that here.

well i think you have experienced me wanting statements to be reasoned.. do you think that is a sign of Ti preference?

If you don't mind my saying so... I've experienced far, far more of you wanting relationships to be reasoned than anything else. You do wonder about the reasons for things I post sometimes, but I wouldn't say that I've seen Ti > Te. If anything, your style of speech is efficient above all else. I'd say that looks more like Te > Ti.

Lemme ask you this... Would you rather have:

1.) Your coworkers and acquaintances be familiar and warm with you, seeing you as someone in favorable social standing and giving your ideas for how to change social norms consideration because of your favorable social standing and trusting your judgment about complex situations because you have vast structured knowledge on the subject at hand, a better understanding of it's complexities than they have or really have any reason to have.

or

2.) Your coworkers and acquaintances treating you with professionalism, not expecting you to take part in warm, superficial, casual conversation, not giving your social standing consideration but instead seeing you as someone who knows how to work efficiently, so they pretty much just allow you to do that. Instead of having a large network of friendly acquaintances who think well of you from a social perspective, you're pretty much off the social radar and instead have several very close friends who do not expect warm, superficial conversation but instead skip the friendly small talk because it is entirely unnecessary. Your few close friends are trustworthy and loyal beyond any doubt, and they know that you are just as trustworthy and loyal to them.


Hmmmm I hope I haven't exaggerated those descriptions too much or made one sound "better" than the other because the idea is for some people to prefer the first and others to prefer the second.

[oyburger]

The second one is me. The first one seems tiring and boring.

[Joy]

I just made a poll with those questions in general. I revised them a little. (and like I said, I've never been convinced that you're Ti )

[detail]

Joy, your / question doesn't work because i have a PoLR and i prefer the description. The reason is that is not what you think it is.

[Joy]

I think perhaps my description included too much that could be attributed to Aristocracy/Democracy.

[Logos]

I just made a poll with those questions in general. I revised them a little. (and like I said, I've never been convinced that you're Ti )

Has there ever been an INTj of which whose type you are sure?

[Joy]

yeah, the one I married

[aestrivex]

Has there ever been an INTj of which whose type you are sure?

if you're looking for definite LIIs from this forum, UDP is a pretty safe bet.

[Joy]

I agree (I've told him many times that he very reminds me of the INTj I was with), but I don't think he comes off the same way some of the Ti types here do. Perhaps it's a subtype thing. Or perhaps some of the other Ti types are actually ethical types that overcompensate for their geekiness with trying to appear extremely "intellectual". The world may never know.

[Logos]

UDP seems to be the INTj standard bearer. So you think neither Ms.Kensington nor Oyburger are INTjs, but apart from them and UDP, how would you type the other self-proclaimed INTjs on this forum? Of course I have a separate question as to why is it then that INTjs seem to be so commonly mistyped?

Or perhaps some of the other Ti types are actually ethical types that overcompensate for their geekiness with trying to appear extremely "intellectual". The world may never know.

The same could be said for most Gamma NTs.

[aestrivex]

one other LII that bears a strong resemblance to UDP (IMO) is the old user soggy flakes. they both are very taciturn, dull, and organized, like some other Ti LIIs i know.

this is not to say that there are not some other forum members who i believe to be fairly obvious LIIs, but they are rather too numerous to count. most of them are a more intellectual group that post primarily on particular socionics issues of their expertise.

[Joy]

There's a specific flavor of "intellectual" to which I'm referring.

Also, I'm not saying that msk and oyburger aren't INTjs, I'm saying that other types seem more likely to me based solely, of course, on the information I have. I've never met either and therefore cannot be even reasonably certain of their types. Even when people here appear to "obviously" be a particular type, I still wouldn't be surprised if I met them and they were very different than they seem online.

[aestrivex]

if you want my opinion, both oyburger and msK are LIIs, as are UDP, logos, labcoat, dioklecian, science as magic, thursday, phaedrus, mariano rajoy, tcaudilllg.....

examples of people i do NOT believe are LII (although one is more a suspicion than any strong idea) include subterranean and hotelambush.

[Ms. Kensington]

one other LII that bears a strong resemblance to UDP (IMO) is the old user soggy flakes. they both are very taciturn, dull, and organized, like some other Ti LIIs i know.

this is not to say that there are not some other forum members who i believe to be fairly obvious LIIs, but they are rather too numerous to count. most of them are a more intellectual group that post primarily on particular socionics issues of their expertise.

udp and soggy flakes do not remind me of each other. hmm.

One person i think is a typical INTj is Al Gore.

[oyburger]

People develop a stereotype of what they think a certain type should or shouldn't be based on people they know who they believe are typed correctly. Anyone who isn't a clone of that stereotype cannot possibly be that type to them regardless of whether the person who's their baseline is a "typical" representation of that type or even typed correctly to begin with. I'm not just refering to Joy and her INTj but anyone who's ever based other people's type on one representation in their life that may or may not be correct, myself included. That being said I am whatever type Ms. K, Logos and MysticSonic are. Maybe we're the mystical XXXx or some yet undiscovered type that only the four of us belong. I don't know, I do know that you could probably shove the four of us in a house together and we'd live pretty peacefully without disturbing each other.

[Slacker]

if you want my opinion, both oyburger and msK are LIIs, as are UDP, logos, labcoat, dioklecian, science as magic, thursday, phaedrus, mariano rajoy, tcaudilllg.....

I agree almost completely except I'm not sure about Dio.

[Ms. Kensington]

People develop a stereotype of what they think a certain type should or shouldn't be based on people they know who they believe are typed correctly. Anyone who isn't a clone of that stereotype cannot possibly be that type to them regardless of whether the person who's their baseline is a "typical" representation of that type or even typed correctly to begin with. I'm not just refering to Joy and her INTj but anyone who's ever based other people's type on one representation in their life that may or may not be correct, myself included. That being said I am whatever type Ms. K, Logos and MysticSonic are. Maybe we're the mystical XXXx or some yet undiscovered type that only the four of us belong. I don't know, I do know that you could probably shove the four of us in a house together and we'd live pretty peacefully without disturbing each other.

I think I am the same type as Mysticsonic and then you. I think Logos might be ENTp but it's just a feeling.

Im wondering if people of the same type who are introverts don't get along worse than expected.

[Ms. Kensington]

There's a specific flavor of "intellectual" to which I'm referring.

Also, I'm not saying that msk and oyburger aren't INTjs, I'm saying that other types seem more likely to me based solely, of course, on the information I have.

Yes I am surprised people thought otherwise, though if one were to say I am more likely one type would be to say I am less likely another. But yep, different.

This is the kind of thing I might say is the same thing that you might be referring to as the certain kind of intellectualism in others who are clearly INTj to you.

For others here is a PM message I sent regarding my Fi:

Ms. Kensington wrote:
i still think that even if it is Fi information Im seeking it could still only mean that i really suck at Fi. Ti/Fe people still have close relationships too, (of course) and they are wonder what the behavior means (in general) whether its specific or general. For example, a stranger said something which I did not consider to be an insult but instead looked at it as data. I didn't think anything of this but I recall telling people in the chat and everyone saying dude that means he was insulting you, blah blah. Then i started to ask questions of what this means. If you look at the questions I ask regarding people, I am asking for a general, universal answer. I think the answers to the specifics of my relations should apply to everyone. I believe this is an Fe understanding of ethics.

I am looking at outside behavior as a standard from which I can tell what things mean, and as they apply to everyone they would also apply to me individually.

[Phaedrus]

if you want my opinion, both oyburger and msK are LIIs, as are UDP, logos, labcoat, dioklecian, science as magic, thursday, phaedrus, mariano rajoy, tcaudilllg.....

I have never understood why you think that you and I are so different. What are the most obvious differences between us then? Why do you think that I am an INTj? Why do you think that you are more similar to Jonathan than I am? And even more interesting, why do you think that Expat is so completely wrong about my type that he believe that I am an INFp?

[Joy]

Actually, I could see INFp for you. Like I said earlier in this thread...

[Ms. Kensington]

if you want my opinion, both oyburger and msK are LIIs, as are UDP, logos, labcoat, dioklecian, science as magic, thursday, phaedrus, mariano rajoy, tcaudilllg.....

I have never understood why you think that you and I are so different. What are the most obvious differences between us then? Why do you think that I am an INTj? Why do you think that you are more similar to Jonathan than I am? And even more interesting, why do you think that Expat is so completely wrong about my type that he believe that I am an INFp?

If Expat thought you were INFp that wouldn't be as completely wrong as INTj since there is Ni in common with the type you believe is correct, INTp, would it? Of course being right or wrong means the answer is completely wrong or completely right but it leaves out the context of the statement. It's like Ni + Te = correct and Ni and not Te =incorrect. The answer is all incorrect but the context is taken out of context. I think most people would say, "darn, I was close in guessing his type right" but not "boo hoo, I was completely wrong". hahahah

Now, was that an Fi statement or a Ti statement? I refer to a thread in which Slava and others discussed Fi as paying more attention to gradations of some sort.

[Expat]

<3 Ms K And I think that's a Te statement.

At a very basic level, since both INFp and INTp are Ni IPs, sharing the IP temperament and the Ni dominant function; since their Ni subtypes are very very close in terms of dichotomies and even functions, and since they are in neighboring quadras, surely, if Phaedrus is INTp, INFp is far less "completely wrong" than INTj. That is, for those who do understand Socionics.

And, niffweed17, what do you think? Why don't you agree with Phaedrus that you are the same type?

[aestrivex]

And, niffweed17, what do you think? Why don't you agree with Phaedrus that you are the same type?

as mundane as it is, i don't really have any idea in terms of comparing him with me. and i don't really care. the behaviors that i have observed from phaedrus line up mostly with LII.

[Ms. Kensington]

I would say that most of what I do is focusing on different ways one can see something and often saying things are dependent on the context, and I would say it is usually always based on a goal, ie: "well if your goal is this then it makes more sense to do that" or "if you look at it this way then that is logical". The second statement to me sounds like Ne + Ti. Then someone who is more interested in finding different ways to see things I think that sounds like creative Ne. When you look at the way my wording is and the things I talk about, that to me sounds like creative subtype Ne with an Ne preference (subtype).

Not sure about the first statement.

[Phaedrus]

And, niffweed17, what do you think? Why don't you agree with Phaedrus that you are the same type?

as mundane as it is, i don't really have any idea in terms of comparing him with me. and i don't really care. the behaviors that i have observed from phaedrus line up mostly with LII.

That is an argument of course, but I am strongly opposed to the general tendency among several forum members to form an opinion on anyone's type based on such a tiny evidence. Your correct stance here, niffweed, would be not to have any opinion on which type I am, if you are not willing to analyze more information than that.

At a very basic level, since both INFp and INTp are Ni IPs, sharing the IP temperament and the Ni dominant function; since their Ni subtypes are very very close in terms of dichotomies and even functions, and since they are in neighboring quadras, surely, if Phaedrus is INTp, INFp is far less "completely wrong" than INTj. That is, for those who do understand Socionics.

I agree. Even though Expat is most likely wrong about me being an INFp, he is much less wrong than those who believe that I am an INTj. And that was my point. Those who see me as an INTj haven't understood the basics well enough. Compare me with UDP, especially the things we both have said about ourselves in various posts, and you will see the differences. Both UDP and I agree that we are different types, and we both understand why. There is a thread by UDP in the Alpha forum that illustrates the differences between him and me and our experiences from oppising sides of a Quasi-Identical working relation in very similar real life situations.

[aestrivex]

there is more information, but i'm sufficiently poorly disposed towards this discussion that i see no real reason to go through it.

[Logos]

I think I am the same type as Mysticsonic and then you. I think Logos might be ENTp but it's just a feeling.

Which is a possibility that I have not discounted yet, but I will say that it is probably safe to say that I am at least an Alpha NT.

[Phaedrus]

I think I am the same type as Mysticsonic and then you. I think Logos might be ENTp but it's just a feeling.

Which is a possibility that I have not discounted yet, but I will say that it is probably safe to say that I am at least an Alpha NT.

How can you not know whether you are an introvert or an extravert, Logos? That is rather easy to determine, you know. So, why don't you start right away? Read about it, any information you can find, and then determine it. It's almost incomprehensible to me why people aren't able to decide that aspect about themselves.

[Logos]

How can you not know whether you are an introvert or an extravert, Logos? That is rather easy to determine, you know. So, why don't you start right away? Read about it, any information you can find, and then determine it. It's almost incomprehensible to me why people aren't able to decide that aspect about themselves.

Because although I may see myself as an introvert, others may see me merely as a reserved extrovert. Introversion and extroversion does not exist as a measurable and quantifiable property; they are relatively subjective, and quite arbritrary, categories used to describe behavior. So it is not a matter of determining whether or not I am extroverted or introverted (that is too much like MBTI), but rather, it is a case of determining the strengths and preferences of my functional hierarchy.

[Phaedrus]

Introversion and extroversion does not exist as a measurable and quantifiable property; they are relatively subjective, and quite arbritrary, categories used to describe behavior.

You are completely wrong about that. It is a clearly observable, measurable and quantifiable property. It is in no way a subjective or arbitrary category to describe behaviour. It is a biological phenomenon that defines your whole interaction with the outside world. And it is not dependent on the socionic theory. It is quite possible to determine whether you are an introvert or an extravert without knowing anything about Socionics.

[Logos]

Introversion and extroversion does not exist as a measurable and quantifiable property; they are relatively subjective, and quite arbritrary, categories used to describe behavior.

You are completely wrong about that. It is a clearly observable, measurable and quantifiable property. It is in no way a subjective or arbitrary category to describe behaviour. It is a biological phenomenon that defines your whole interaction with the outside world. And it is not dependent on the socionic theory. It is quite possible to determine whether you are an introvert or an extravert without knowing anything about Socionics.

Is there a quantifiable point in which we can say that one person shifts from extrovert to introvert? Then how would I go about quantifying and measuring this property? Social interactive time sheets?

[KSpin]

How do you like to unwind, Logos? How do you relax after a hard day's work?

[detail]

I'll take 3 extraversion units please. Oh, with ketchup.


















To take out.

[KSpin]

You'll have to find them, because I don't even know what they look like.

[oyburger]

I'll take 3 extraversion units please. Oh, with ketchup.

Well, if it's like that, that's an aspect of my life I'd like to change. 10 units for me please. Currently I'm at -.5, I'd like to be on the plus side.

[detail]

You'll have to find them, because I don't even know what they look like.

Phaedrus will probably be able to tell you. I hope so anyways, because he's probably the only one who could.

[KSpin]

You'll have to find them, because I don't even know what they look like.

Phaedrus will probably be able to tell you. I hope so anyways, because he's probably the only one who could.

Now, now children.

[detail]

Oh, BTW, Ms K. is INTj.

[Joy]

Too bad there's no answer key... no way to KNOW a person's type for sure. Eh well, it's obviously more important to you than it is to me, and I'd really rather not be the one who you take your frustrations out on... so I'll take my leave.

[detail]

Which pattern?