Attitude of LIEs-ENTJs towards alcohol/getting drunk
booze?
Every ENTj I know in real life is inclined towards getting smashed on the weekendsJoy's posts made me wonder if there is somewhat of a predisposition to drinking....
perhaps as Si polr compensation?
I am sure it is not directly type related, but I'm just curious to hear what people have to say.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Friday night I had a glass of wine and probably 8 to 12 beers. The next day I took 800 mg of ibuprofen, 60 mg of adderall, and the next day I felt like... well, like I drank poison. I have a tendency not to know when to stop. However... alcoholism runs on both sides of my family, and I'm from Wisconsin.
taking adderall, especially that much, after drinking would make me feel like utter death. torture.
when i drink...well lately all i want to drink is tequila and beer. mainly only cabo wabo tequila. whenever we have it, im with friends. they start off with a shot, i start off with 4. i can just drink that shit like no ones business and it feels great. havn't really gotten hung over at all from it. then i just stick with beer until someones says "CMON SHOTS!" then ill talk like 2 more or so. last time i drank i did get sick the next morning, but i believe that due to eating 2 rolls of yellow snapper and some other kind of fish tempura sushi before drinking. i just threw up, no hang over or head ache or whatever. yay tequila!
BE CAREFUL YOU ENTJ'S! GEEZ!
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
tequila is unique
What UDP says: "....."Originally Posted by Joy
However... alcoholism runs on both sides of my family, and I'm from Wisconsin.
What UDP thinks: (I did not know the people of Wisconsin had developed a reputation for excuses.)
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
It's not really an excuse. Just because someone is born an alcoholic doesn't mean they have to drink excessively, or at all. I except full responsibility for my decisions. I just mentioned that because I think there are often many factors involved in a lot of tendencies.
I very seldom get "smashed". I drink red wine very often and regularly, also because I think it's healthy besides pleasant. I drink beer but not getting smashed. I do drink spirits but seldom. I can't recall the last time I got clearly intoxicated. Surely well over 6 months ago.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
No one is born an alcoholic. There has never been any evidence to suggest an inheritance of alcoholism (to my knowledge). It's just one of those things that people say and no one really questions it because so many people say it. Sort of like the efficacy of Alcoholics Anonymous (which actually has the same success rate as quitting without any help).
To my knowledge, there's no evidence to support the idea that drinking a little has health benefits.
Also, alcoholism is not a disease. But that's neither here nor there.
Anyway, I've known a few people I'd categorize as ENTj, and they didn't drink excessively (some didn't even drink, period). In fact, most, if not all, of them would consider it a very bad idea to get "smashed."
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
Wow, you're really smart.
LOL
He also doesn't read very much, as I've read that every single thing there is true.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Oh - I didn't answer the question. My ENTj mom likes a glass or two of wine in the evenings, but I don't think I've ever seen her drunk.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I'm don't really think alcholism is a disease. We had 3-way argument about it once with Stasia and Patrick (one where I was the middle person because I didn't really know)
I think alcholism might be an excuse, a way to victimize the people who abuse alcohol. WHen used as an excuse, they just keep drinking and say, "I can't help it! I'm an alcoholic!" Other times, it could make someone who is addicted to drinking to feel better about it because it isn't their fault, so they don't have to hate themselves. Which ultimately would help them quit. Depends on the person.
Now before anyone gets mad, this is the opinion I developed...
What would be more correct to say, imho, would be that said alcholic has an problem with addiction. Or, prone to problems with addictions. Which may be hereditary. Sometimes it's just the fact that you knew your family members had the problems so you manifest it yourself when you are going through rough times. Unconciously remember the way your famliy delt with things, and do the same because you don't know the alternatives. I'm sure some sort of chemical imbalance is the cause of this. Depending on which substance or anything really, that you become addicted to, would probably indicate a different imbalance.
I can speak of this because I have been addicted to at least 2 things. And several family members are also "alcoholics". Not to say I fully understand, but I've got a pretty good grasp.
It's all coping, addiction is. If its a drug or intoxicate you're addicted to, it's probably because you don't like how you feel without it, so just end up constantly taking the drug.
Think about it people, there is a glass of wine on the table. Your favorite. You know if you have some you'll want to have waaaaay more, and it will get out of hand and you will be sick. You will say stupid things to people you care about, you will make mistakes while you judgement is impaired. You will feel temporarily invincible, but only to feel like the bottom of the barrel of crap for the next day or two, or longer depending on the damage you may have cause. People will lose respect for you in some cases.
Now...are you going to pick it up? Or just leave it there? It takes physical action. Something you CAN control. Just because your brain is telling you to DRINK DRINK DRINK IM UNHAPPY I NEED TO DRINK! doesn't mean it can force your hand to the glass, force your hand to grab it, pull it up to your mouth, and make you drink it. It's your choice.
Therefore...no alcholism. It's all in your head, part of just general addiction to mind altering substances.
For the sake of not sounding like a...something negative that people may think of me after saying this...I will share what my main addiction was.
For about 2-3 years I was addicted to self-mutilation. If I wasn't doing it, I was thinking about it. I won't get into the small feelings I got from it, because it might be a little disturbing. I don't know why I started, but once I did I continued due to the feel of control I got from it. I'd also have this strange high afterwards, especially in the beginning when I'd go over-board. I must mention, I NEVER DESIRED TO KILL MYSELF. Hurting myself was first about relieving the numb feeling I had from feeling so repressed and over-controlled. Then it became an addiction to that high, trance like feeling, and the feeling that only I knew about this and it was mine. Later on it just became a method of punishing myself. It became that way because I started realize that I was weak and stupid for using it as coping method to begin with. Eventually that feeling led me to stop. Not to mention, I started realizing the long term effects on my body.
Do you know how much preperation cutting yourself can take? Especially for someone who has developed a sort of perverted art of it? That is a lot of time to think about why the hell you're doing it. During that time it would be so easy to just NOT touch the blades. Same as the time you have between the time you feel the urge to drink, and actually drinking. You have the trip to the store, money to spend (thats a big part), pouring it in a glass, picking up the glass.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to make light of anyones addictions. Addiction is serious imo, I know, I feel it often. I've been largely effected by my family members addictions. I just hate that most people use alcoholism as an excuse to keep drinking. IT REALLY GRINDS MY GEARS!
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
There was an episode of South Park about alcoholism that touched on some of your points, Clover.
I've read from a few sources that there is a correlation between alcoholism and unstable blood sugar. Alcoholics are often hypoglycemic, and when they drink their blood sugar spikes. Then they sleep or don't drink for a bit, and their blood sugar gets low again and they feel like shit... unless they do something to bring their blood sugar back up again, such as having another drink. That's why a lot of alcoholics wake up craving alcohol. Can an alcoholic stop drinking or maybe use moderation in their drinking? I think so. But simply trying to stop drinking without addressing the blood sugar issue is, imo, setting yourself up for failure.
There's a book called The Diet Cure that talks about this issue and how to stabilize one's blood sugar levels with amino acids and other nutritional supplements. It also talks about supplements for things like weight loss, depression, eating disorders, hormonal imbalances, etc.
I have a theory that people in Wisconsin like to drink beer...
It's not just beer... brandy is also very popular here, as well as other forms of alcohol. People who come to Wisconsin from other areas of the country are often amazed by how much we drink. I haven't spent enough time in other areas to observe first hand whether or not this is true, but I'm told that for most people, 3 to 5 drinks is a lot?
yeah... you guys drink alot...
you've got some way tasty cheese and sausage though... brats fucking rule! that's the one Wisconsin skill passed down to me from my Sheboygan grown mother... how to cook brats the right way (which she argues over with my father, a Milwawke boy... personally I like her Sheboygan methods (only use water and fingers to handle da brats... way tastier somehow, and they always come out perfect... Dad's methods (tongs) tends to lose the juice and overcook (burn) them) Dad can BBQ way better than mom though...
(and neither are ENTj... topic :wink:)
My boss at work is an ENTj and I don't think she drinks very often. I can't really quantify "very often" but compared to a lot of people, she rarely drinks.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
haha I asked because someone told me that for most people in most places, 3 to 5 drinks is a lot... here if you've had 3 to 5, your night is just getting started. What's "a lot" here depends on who you talk to... probably 6 to 10 for people who drink less than one night every week or two (I'd estimate that about 30% to 40% of adults here wold fall into this category), 10 to 15 is a lot for people who drink at least a couple nights a week (about 40% to 50% of adults), and 15 to 24 (generally closer to 24) is a lot for people who are full time alcoholics, which I would estimate to be around 5% to 10% of adults, but it could be higher. Of course this is all partially dependent on the amount of blood they have in their bodies, too.
you've got some way tasty cheese and sausage though... brats fucking rule! that's the one Wisconsin skill passed down to me from my Sheboygan grown mother... how to cook brats the right way (which she argues over with my father, a Milwawke boy... personally I like her Sheboygan methods (only use water and fingers to handle da brats... way tastier somehow, and they always come out perfect... Dad's methods (tongs) tends to lose the juice and overcook (burn) them) Dad can BBQ way better than mom though...I've been to the Johnsonville parade! I like to boil brats in beer (quite common around here) for a little bit and then finish cooking them on the grill, just to brown the outside a bit.
oh ya... ya gotta soak 'em in da beer (my impression of the wisconsin accent) I thought that was just a given
It would be a hard sell to say that "alcoholism is a disease" is true, since there exists such controversy on the subject, and evidence is inconclusive. Unless of course you take a broad definition of disease, but then, it wouldn't be true to the "disease theory of alcoholism" (and addiction in general).
However, I find it kind of silly to label anything a disease which:
Is only self-inflicted.
Is curable by self-effort.
Is characterized solely by behavioral choices.
Is treated primarily by counseling. (I realize there is at least one drug that may be capable of lessening cravings, although I've seen some information questioning its efficacy)
Regarding the "inheritance of alcoholism," there are some genetic factors that may make one more prone to addictive behaviors. However, I've seen nothing to suggest that alcoholism itself passes genetically. In fact, an "alcoholism gene" is a rather ludicrous idea, as no one is born an alcoholic.
I'd be hard pressed to find it again, but I did once read a study that showed drinking small amounts of red wine (or it might have possibly been another alcoholic beverage) had no detectable health benefits. I'd be quite interested if someone could provide a study that suggested otherwise.
"They say alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only disease you can get yelled at for having.
Dammit, Otto, you're an alcoholic! Dammit, Otto, you have lupus!
One of these does not sound right." - Mitch Hedberg
Anyway, back to the discussion of beer-boiled foods. The beer-boiled bratwurst sounds tasty. I need to find a recipe or something to try this myself.
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
do it man... it's God's own food! I promise... just make sure you do it right and cook that shit on a grill over coals (forget the cancer threats... you gotta live a little!) and don't use tongs or forks on them because you break the skin and lose all the tasty beer-brat juice that way
I think I've begun salivating already.do it man... it's God's own food! I promise... just make sure you do it right and cook that shit on a grill over coals (forget the cancer threats... you gotta live a little!) and don't use tongs or forks on them because you break the skin and lose all the tasty beer-brat juice that way
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm sure we've all heard that once someone is an alcoholic, they're always an alcoholic, whether they drink or not. If you don't believe that this is true (maybe not always, but at least for most alcoholics), then don't bother reading the rest of my post, and we shall have to agree to disagree.
The way it was explained to me by a psychologist is that people who are unable to tell when it's time to stop drinking once they've started are alcoholics (not to say that there aren't other ways to define alcoholism), and that if you have a lot of family members who have been or are alcoholics, it's most likely that you will be one as well, whether you ever actually consume alcohol in your life or not. He explained case studies suggest that there is a genetic (as opposed to solely environmental) predisposition toward alcoholism, and that even though neither of my parents drank any alcohol at all after I was born, the fact that most of my relatives are/were alcoholics means that I most likely have a predisposition toward alcoholism. I told him that I didn't drink much (which was true), and he said that it didn't matter, that I was most likely born an alcoholic. Do I KNOW that this is true? Of course not. However, based on people I've known I'd say that there is most likely a hereditary influence on whether or not someone will end up with substance abuse problems at some point in their lives. I'm not saying that they don't have a choice, just that some people are much more likely than others to have substance abuse issues at some point, similar to how some people are more likely to smoke than others (based on their brain chemistry).
personally I got bored with drinking when I became legal... it lost all it's charm
Lots of diseases are self-inflicted. Lung cancer, hepatitis, geeze there are probably tons of diseases people get because they did something not too wise. How about cirrhosis of the liver? Two for the price of one - alcoholism AND liver disease! It's a mental illness - which is a valid type of illness - and it also strongly physical. The problem is that we treat mental illness as different from other illnesses in this country. If you have chest pain and you end up with a heart attack, no one thinks less of you as a person because your heart doesn't work properly. But if you have behavior issues because of a mental illness, people *do* think less of you as a person because your brain doesn't work properly. It's just the specific organ that is effected that is different - not that it's an illness if it's your heart and not an illness if it's your brain.
Anyway, on to beer and brats! Here in Michigan we eat that too. YUMMY. And yes people boil the brats in beer and then grill them for a bit after. Yummy! And summer is comingI'm not a fan of sauerkraut though - which many people like on brats.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Only self-inflicted. If I simply said self-inflicted, that would cover almost every disease, as you can always inflict yourself with most diseases by sticking yourself with a needle full of whatever disease. Lung cancer, hepatitis, and cirrhosis of the liver can all occur without engaging in behaviors that cause them. No one ever wakes up one morning craving alcohol when they've never had it before.Lots of diseases are self-inflicted. Lung cancer, hepatitis, geeze there are probably tons of diseases people get because they did something not too wise. How about cirrhosis of the liver? Two for the price of one - alcoholism AND liver disease! It's a mental illness - which is a valid type of illness - and it also strongly physical. The problem is that we treat mental illness as different from other illnesses in this country. If you have chest pain and you end up with a heart attack, no one thinks less of you as a person because your heart doesn't work properly. But if you have behavior issues because of a mental illness, people *do* think less of you as a person because your brain doesn't work properly. It's just the specific organ that is effected that is different - not that it's an illness if it's your heart and not an illness if it's your brain.
Anyway, on to beer and brats! Here in Michigan we eat that too. YUMMY. And yes people boil the brats in beer and then grill them for a bit after. Yummy! And summer is coming
Also, there's a major difference between something like schizophrenia, where you have no choice but to suffer it and alcoholism, where you consciously decide to ingest every alcoholic beverage you consume. Yes, there are biological and psychological aspects to alcoholism, but ignoring the behavioral component and claiming alcoholism is a disease and its sufferers are powerless against it is a terrible approach.
Any suggestions on what beer to use with the brats? I'm definitely going to try that sometime.
EDIT: I went through PubMed a bit looking for studies on red wine and health benefits. It seems there are some, however, it's more likely the result of non-alcoholic components. Perhaps what I had read regarded the effects of the alcohol itself, and not of any particular drink.
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rule of cooking with beer is the same as the rule of cooking with wine - only cook with beer (or wine) you would drink. We like Labatt's Blue here so that's what we use for about anything. But maybe not everyone likes Labatt's Blue?
Alcoholism is largely self-inflicted but as previously said in this thread, there are some genetic factors that increase the likelihood that a person will get it. So it's *mainly* self-inflicted but those genetic factors have to be taken into consideration. Of course, if you never drink you won't be an alcoholic, but then it's a genetic factor toward addiction more than specifically alcoholism so it could show up in some other kind of addiction that might be harder to avoid. I personally very rarely drink for two reasons - I am positive I would have to have the genetic predisposition, and I get migraine headaches and alcohol seems to be seriously related to them. But then I had a pain issue at one point and was on medication for a while, and I had a hard time stopping it. I did, but I had definite cravings and I felt sick for a few days. That was the first problem of that nature I'd had so it wasn't something I was really expecting.
Alcoholics are pretty powerless against alcohol. That's like #1 on the AA list, isn't it? Somewhere close to the top. I know alcoholics and, once they get hooked, it isn't as easy as saying, "This is a conscious choice and I choose no!" It's more complicated than that. Any addiction is more complicated than that. I used to work with a woman who was dying of emphesyma and as soon as she'd walk out the door at work she'd turn off her oxygen and light up a cigarette. If it were as simple as "having the power" she wouldn't have continued, but she wasn't able to break free of it. Our brains control all our behavior, including the behavior "buying alcohol". It is very hard to overcome that. It can be done, thankfully, but it's a constant battle for people who stop drinking.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
it's step 1... admitting that you're powerless over your addiction
I think Nivek's saying though that twelve step programs aren't the best solution either and alot of it is self-fullfilling. Personally I've seen twelve step programs do good for people who hadn't found any solutions elsewhere. It doesn't matter how scientific or effective it is in this case... just that it works for those it works for is enough to make twelve step systems worthwhile IMO.
however... they've never worked for me... I've tried going at it from that angle and it doesn't do anything for me besides making me jones even more.I hear war stories and no matter how many kids they sold for rock I still want to go out and get high after hearing it.
According to an internal AA memo (AA doesn't report any statistics on the program), AA has a 5% success rate (5% don't return to drinking at some point). Quiting solo with no assistance or program has a success rate of 5%. Some people may think AA works, but it's far more likely AA is irrelevant to success.it's step 1... admitting that you're powerless over your addiction
I think Nivek's saying though that twelve step programs aren't the best solution either and alot of it is self-fullfilling. Personally I've seen twelve step programs do good for people who hadn't found any solutions elsewhere. It doesn't matter how scientific or effective it is in this case... just that it works for those it works for is enough to make twelve step systems worthwhile IMO.
It's also worthy of note that AA is a religious program. Step 2 is acknowledging the need of a "higher power" to escape alcoholism. They (AA) claim atheists could use a rock or tree to be their "higher power," but just how the hell is a tree or rock supposed to help you if you can't do something about it?
Also, telling people they are powerless against their addiction is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Addiction can be overcome, but it requires discipline (and support from others certainly doesn't hurt), not condemnation as an individual "cursed" with alcoholism and needing a god (or a rock or tree) to save the individual from it.
Yes, it's more complicated than a simple conscious choice, as repeated use results in a compelling urge to repeat the behavior. That's different from forcing the behavior, though. To anthropomorphize a bit, the addiction coerces the individual to drink, much like torture might coerce an individual to betray a friend.
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
So... how is Down's Syndrome self inflicted? What about Marfan Syndrome or any of the many other genetic disorders that exist?
Unstable blood sugar can occur without ever having had any alcohol. If a hypoglycemic person starts drinking, chances are they will keep drinking, even to the point of self-destruction. That is how a person who has never had alcohol can be an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not defined by drinking a lot.Lung cancer, hepatitis, and cirrhosis of the liver can all occur without engaging in behaviors that cause them. No one ever wakes up one morning craving alcohol when they've never had it before.
/edit in response to Nivek
I agree... the 2nd step was one I couldn't take, so I faked it... obviously that didn't work out so great
why did I look in Gamma? ENTjs argue in the most annoying waysSo... how is Down's Syndrome self inflicted? What about Marfan Syndrome or any of the many other genetic disorders that exist?
Unstable blood sugar can occur without ever having had any alcohol. If a hypoglycemic person starts drinking, chances are they will keep drinking, even to the point of self-destruction. That is how a person who has never had alcohol can be an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not defined by drinking a lot.Lung cancer, hepatitis, and cirrhosis of the liver can all occur without engaging in behaviors that cause them. No one ever wakes up one morning craving alcohol when they've never had it before.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over.So... how is Down's Syndrome self inflicted? What about Marfan Syndrome or any of the many other genetic disorders that exist?
When the hell did I suggest one could inflict such diseases upon themselves?
No, alcoholism is characterized by developing an addiction to alcohol. Addiction, rather difficult to define specifically, would in general be the compulsion to repeat a certain behavior, even if to do so is detrimental. Just because someone has a condition that might make them more prone to alcoholism doesn't mean they're already an alcoholic. Without craving the alcohol, one cannot rightly be considered an alcoholic.Unstable blood sugar can occur without ever having had any alcohol. If a hypoglycemic person starts drinking, chances are they will keep drinking, even to the point of self-destruction. That is how a person who has never had alcohol can be an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not defined by drinking a lot.Lung cancer, hepatitis, and cirrhosis of the liver can all occur without engaging in behaviors that cause them. No one ever wakes up one morning craving alcohol when they've never had it before.
That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...he-bottle.html
It's a couple years old, but my point is that scientists don't KNOW whether alcoholism (or predisposition to alcoholism) can be passed on to offspring. Anyways, as for this subject, I'm done.
lol Peter's amazed because he gave me a field sobriety test after 7 beers and I passed it no problem
Sweet, no one was really offended by my post. I was expecting some flaming...
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
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