How do you cope with your PoLR? Reactions and compensation.

[Joy]

The fourth function is the one that we dislike receiving criticism on the most. It's something that we don't feel like we should have to concern ourselves with. We have poor command over this function and tend to either neglect it or go overboard with it, unable to find and remain on a reasonable middle ground.

[Mea]

how do you pronounce "polr?"

at the conference in new york there were a number of people saying "polar." am i the only person that reads this as P-O-L-R?

That makes me wonder. Am I the only person who reads Ne as N-E, Si as S-I.

I don't read PoLR as P-O-L-R, I read it as pol'r. Much shorter.

[cracka]

That makes me wonder. Am I the only person who reads Ne as N-E, Si as S-I.

I don't read PoLR as P-O-L-R, I read it as pol'r. Much shorter.

ditto.

[aestrivex]

how do you pronounce "polr?"

at the conference in new york there were a number of people saying "polar." am i the only person that reads this as P-O-L-R?

That makes me wonder. Am I the only person who reads Ne as N-E, Si as S-I.

no; i read the functions as two letter combinations as well. that i think more people do.

[Creepy-bg]

how do you pronounce "polr?"

at the conference in new york there were a number of people saying "polar." am i the only person that reads this as P-O-L-R?

That makes me wonder. Am I the only person who reads Ne as N-E, Si as S-I.

no; i read the functions as two letter combinations as well. that i think more people do.

yup but I sometimes call black hole

[Jarno]

My personal understanding of it is that our super-ego is a area that we want to lead in/control of but are weak/believe we are weak/vulnerable at. When someone seeks to lead/control us in our super-ego functions, we respond with conflict,

Also true, but the real reason for the conflict according to Jung (!) is that our super ego functions are the least compatible with our ego functions. Therefor lesser developed and perceived as conflicting with our ego functions. That's why in Conflict relationships the other partner is perceived as someone who does things wrong purposely.

[Blaze]

The fourth function is the one that we dislike receiving criticism on the most. It's something that we don't feel like we should have to concern ourselves with. We have poor command over this function and tend to either neglect it or go overboard with it, unable to find and remain on a reasonable middle ground.

yes. i'd add that we don't perceive the information element located in the fourth function very well, which means we don't really understand it, ergo we don't have good control over it. we are conscious of this also. people notice our weakness in this area. people who are strong in this area criticize us quite easily. since we know we are not in good control, we get defensive and feel personally attacked by this criticism. there is very little hope for improving the polr. the best that one can do is begin to minimize its negative impact.

[Jonathan]

I guess the way I would put it is that the general view on this forum of what PoLR is way exaggerated overall. People tend to think of the PoLR as the area in which one is most sensitive, combatitive...and that basically it represents a sort of black hole. My understanding is that the PoLR (or vulnerable function) is really just an area that a person doesn't see as relevant, so that if one is criticized in that area, one has a reaction like "why is that person criticizing me for THAT?" or "why is that even important" or one is blind-sided and not even expecting that criticism, because one's awareness is lacking in that area.

Also, many people seem to think that people cannot appreciate/respect other people's use of the IM element that's one's vulnerable function. I believe that's a myth. People often do appreciate and respect the strengths of their super-ego and conflict types.

I think people do appreciate the strengths of their superego and conflict types.. but doesn't it seem a contradiction that one respects it when not directed towards him and yet doesn't like being criticized in himself?

It might seem like a contradiction, but it's not really because it involves different degrees of distance. For example, if you're watching a movie, you might be entertained by and interested in characters who maybe would conflict with you if actually knew them. When you're watching someone from a distance, it's less personal, less related to your own personal strengths and insecurities. In other words, from a greater distance, you're not in the equation so much; you're just watching.

Similarly, with casual relationships...people you might chat with at lunch, etc....they don't know you that well and thus aren't likely to criticize you much.

Does the quote mean that they would see the value of criticism but doesn't see how he himself failed in that area because he is blind to it?

Yes, the person is blind in that area, so he didn't see the criticism coming. And also, even if he does see the value of the criticism as applied in general, he doesn't think it's that essential to what he's trying to accomplish personally.

Overall, many people aren't really that consistent between what they think is good generally, and what they think is good if it involves them personally.

[Joy]

Do you remember these things from when you were a kid? The harder you try to get out (by pulling), the more stuck you are. It's like quick sand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink.

The only way to get out of chinese finger cuffs or quick sand is to stop struggling... do you think this is true with your PoLR?

[Blaze]

define struggle.

[Joy]

It's definitely tied to one's hidden agenda. If you focus too much on your hidden agenda, you fuck up your PoLR. If you focus on your PoLR, however, it becomes a downward spiral. At least that's been my experience... but perhaps there are extenuating circumstances in my case.

struggle = put a great deal of effort or attention towards

[Gilly]

Well, your PoLR is a weak function, so when you use it, it's a bit like trying to hammer a bent nail: the more you keep hammering away, the more damage you cause, the more time you waste, and the further you get from accomplishing your goal. For example, when I had a tiff with Diana a while ago I knew that, if I pm'd her and tried to clear everything up, I'd probably end up saying something accidentally or in defense of my ego or something that would just make things worse; if I kept hammering at the fucked up nail, all it was going to do was get more bent.

[FDG]

Simply avoid occupations that are too PoLR-intensive.

[Joy]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

[FDG]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

In areas when there isn't other's pressure, we can deal with our PoLR just fine, given that we decide how much of it to use. In any case the solution is simple: become an extreme accepting subtype.

[Gilly]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

In areas when there isn't other's pressure, we can deal with our PoLR just fine, given that we decide how much of it to use.

Good job showing your Fi PoLR :wink:

[FDG]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

In areas when there isn't other's pressure, we can deal with our PoLR just fine, given that we decide how much of it to use.

Good job showing your Fi PoLR :wink:

I've seen Fi dominants been subject to other people's pressure in various matters...your claim seems pretty baseless in this specific regard.

[Gilly]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

In areas when there isn't other's pressure, we can deal with our PoLR just fine, given that we decide how much of it to use.

Good job showing your Fi PoLR :wink:

I've seen Fi dominants been subject to other people's pressure in various matters...your claim seems pretty baseless in this specific regard.

Everyone is. But you mentioned it as your own personal weak point.

[FDG]

There's more to life than that though. We're forced to deal with our PoLR's in other areas, too. It's unavoidable, at least to some extent.

In areas when there isn't other's pressure, we can deal with our PoLR just fine, given that we decide how much of it to use.

Good job showing your Fi PoLR :wink:

I've seen Fi dominants been subject to other people's pressure in various matters...your claim seems pretty baseless in this specific regard.

Everyone is. But you mentioned it as your own personal weak point.

No, I wasn't speaking about my PoLR, I was just saying that when others don't ask us to complete tasks that require our PoLR, we shouldn't encounter problems in its usage, given that we are the ones deciding how much to use it.

[Gilly]

What I'm saying is that I think you unintentionally revealed that your PoLR is basically having other people expect things of you.

[FDG]

What I'm saying is that I think you unintentionally revealed that your PoLR is basically having other people expect things of you.

...about my PoLR, not about my other functions. Gilly, I don't think it's a strong argument, given the specific context.

[Gilly]

I dunno, it just seemed telling to me. Not that you're necessarily trying to hide it, just that something made you instinctively think about people asking you to do things when you think of things that you think of as your PoLR, because people asking you to do things with regards to Si is a pretty small part of Si PoLR.

[Joy]

We have to use all of our functions just to get by in life. It's not possible to just totally ignore it, and some situations demand heavy use of it. Sometimes those situations are unavoidable.

[FDG]

I dunno, it just seemed telling to me. Not that you're necessarily trying to hide it, just that something made you instinctively think about people asking you to do things when you think of things that you think of as your PoLR, because people asking you to do things with regards to Si is a pretty small part of Si PoLR.

I was specifically thinking about when I worked at a supermarket and I had to create very precise rows and columns of small things that that was driving me completely crazy whereas many other people, even if not happy of doing it, weren't becoming as neurotic as me. This is a case where the environment demands you to do a task that requires the PoLR for example.

[FDG]

We have to use all of our functions just to get by in life. It's not possible to just totally ignore it, and some situations demand heavy use of it. Sometimes those situations are unavoidable.

Too vague.

[Ms. Kensington]

if I kept hammering at the fucked up nail, all it was going to do was get more bent.

thats interesting in regards to an Fi polr. I don't know if I experience that with my Se polr.

[mm]

I dunno, it just seemed telling to me. Not that you're necessarily trying to hide it, just that something made you instinctively think about people asking you to do things when you think of things that you think of as your PoLR, because people asking you to do things with regards to Si is a pretty small part of Si PoLR.

But generally speaking, isn't PoLR most visible when you feel it's what others expect from you (spoken or unspoken)? Si PoLR for instance becomes a problem when you feel you need to keep an eye on several things at the same time to maintain a relaxed atmosphere for everyone, like when having a barbecue. Si PoLR and barbecues don't go together. They become so agitated that they lose all common sense and end up grabbing the barbecue fire with their bare hands. True story! Second degree burns.

[Slacker]

I like the "hammering a bent nail" analogy. For Ti, for me, it feels kind of like getting stuck in a web, and the more I try to wiggle out, the more stuck and wrapped up I get.

And when it happens is when I'm in a conversation with someone and they'll say, "Hey, wait a minute . . ." because they take what I say way too literally, so I'll try to explain myself better, and they'll say, "That doesn't make sense either because . . ." and at that point it's best to just give up.

[Ezra]

Do you remember these things from when you were a kid? The harder you try to get out (by pulling), the more stuck you are. It's like quick sand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink.

The only way to get out of chinese finger cuffs or quick sand is to stop struggling... do you think this is true with your PoLR?

If Fi is my PoLR, then no, this concept is untrue with my PoLR.

[Blaze]

Do you remember these things from when you were a kid? The harder you try to get out (by pulling), the more stuck you are. It's like quick sand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink.

The only way to get out of chinese finger cuffs or quick sand is to stop struggling... do you think this is true with your PoLR?

If Fi is my PoLR, then no, this concept is untrue with my PoLR.

for once i agree with you ezra. you can't not do anything about Fi polr. you have to work on it or you'll have serious life consequences.

[liveandletlive]

So from my understanding, when others criticize your PoLR it causes you the most pain (duh- hence its name) however, i think that this can use a little tweaking.

I may just be speaking for myself, but the more I learn about the more I realize that I am actually against it (no offense and please no shit betas and alphas). I have noticed this from my dual as well with their PoLR. We live our lives in defiance of our PoLRs.

When I am in contact with a -leading type (a.k.a. my supervisor and/or conflictor) when they notice my weak I don't really get insulted (this could maybe be attributed to my stubborness) but rather, I gain more confidence in my strong, valued leading and creative functions, once again underestimating the importance of my PoLR as we all do. This idea of your PoLR not being your PoLR when others "insult" it also works into how your dual's creative function helps you to grow into your PoLR, rather than if your dual were to have their creative function your PoLR- do you know what I mean?

Anyway, the only time when my PoLR is my PoLR is when I make a mistake and looking back on the mistake beat myself up over underestimating my PoLR's importance. So perhaps the concept of the PoLR should be renamed, or no? Thoughts? Ideas? Experiences?

[aestrivex]

actually that makes sense. the concept of a vulnerable function at all is less important than IM preferences and quadra values.

[liveandletlive]

actually that makes sense. the concept of a vulnerable function at all is less important than IM preferences and quadra values.

exactly- i think that deserves a gold star haha

BTW, this also explains the criticism that conflicting relations are dramatized in their depiction and description.

[Ms. Kensington]

So from my understanding, when others criticize your PoLR it causes you the most pain (duh- hence its name) however, i think that this can use a little tweaking.

I may just be speaking for myself, but the more I learn about the more I realize that I am actually against it (no offense and please no shit betas and alphas). I have noticed this from my dual as well with their PoLR. We live our lives in defiance of our PoLRs.

When I am in contact with a -leading type (a.k.a. my supervisor and/or conflictor) when they notice my weak I don't really get insulted (this could maybe be attributed to my stubborness) but rather, I gain more confidence in my strong, valued leading and creative functions, once again underestimating the importance of my PoLR as we all do. This idea of your PoLR not being your PoLR when others "insult" it also works into how your dual's creative function helps you to grow into your PoLR, rather than if your dual were to have their creative function your PoLR- do you know what I mean?

Anyway, the only time when my PoLR is my PoLR is when I make a mistake and looking back on the mistake beat myself up over underestimating my PoLR's importance. So perhaps the concept of the PoLR should be renamed, or no? Thoughts? Ideas? Experiences?

"point of least resistance" doesn't make me think of pain.. but it does make me think that person has the least comfort with using the function .. so i think it is compatible with saying that person doesn't deal with it, doesn't care about it, and she CAN be defiant of it, but not necessarily. They just don't want to deal with it.. so they let others handle it. So in a way, you are resisting input on it the least, even if you are defiant if someone wants YOU to use it. You are saying, "i dont care, you go do it".

[Slacker]

I find it more irritating or infuriating than painful.

[Phaedrus]

So from my understanding, when others criticize your PoLR it causes you the most pain ...

No, Ms. Kensington is right. Your PoLR is something you don't want to care about, something you don't want to bother about, something you want to ignore. It is something irrelevant, seen from your perspective.

[Logos]

No, Ms. Kensington is right. Your PoLR is something you don't want to care about, something you don't want to bother about, something you want to ignore. It is something irrelevant, seen from your perspective.

I would like to point out that this is probably the third time I have agreed with Phaedrus.

While this may seem like reiteration, it is worth mentioning that your PoLR function is weak and that stems from not really deeming that function of great importance. But despite that, what you and others have said, the "pain" of the PoLR comes when the necessity of using a function you deem irrelevant can come and bite you in the ass so to speak. For the LII, is again deemed unimportant, but when some scenario requires and an LII an LII can feel powerless and partially out of an awareness that they lack due to their neglect of it. That said, the whole PoLR thing gets overblown way out of proportion, as I can see the value for even if that is not the focus of my concern. Being an LII does not require me to hate , and I do not want be a slave to treating with disrespect out of a need to somehow validate my dominant and desired functions.

[BLauritson]

One thing I've been thinking lately regarding the PoLR (not directly related to the OP but I thought I'd mention it because I'll never get around to it otherwise) is whether, by default, you interpret or translate information relating to your PoLR into information regarding your HA. Well, an example of what I'm trying to say is that I think, even with knowledge of what Fe actually is, I always seem to interpret Fe information as Fi information, if that makes sense. Like the "PoLR Hit?" thread I started some time ago; the ESFj in question was telling me (more or less) that I'd disrupted the emotional atmosphere because I visibly wasn't enjoying myself at the party, whereas I'd interpreted her words to mean that I'd upset the individual people there and therefore damaged my relationship with those people. Does that make any sense? I'm thinking also, given that I've read in the past some people saying that they find HA hits more hurtful than PoLR hits, if what I've just written is true, then maybe that's why a PoLR hit (i.e. an actual hit) is so painful - not because you perceive it as a failure of your PoLR but rather a failure of your HA. Again though, I'm not certain about any of this, I'm just throwing it out there to see if anyone else has any insights on the subject.

[Logos]

One thing I've been thinking lately regarding the PoLR (not directly related to the OP but I thought I'd mention it because I'll never get around to it otherwise) is whether, by default, you interpret or translate information relating to your PoLR into information regarding your HA. Well, an example of what I'm trying to say is that I think, even with knowledge of what Fe actually is, I always seem to interpret Fe information as Fi information, if that makes sense. Like the "PoLR Hit?" thread I started some time ago; the ESFj in question was telling me (more or less) that I'd disrupted the emotional atmosphere because I visibly wasn't enjoying myself at the party, whereas I'd interpreted her words to mean that I'd upset the individual people there and therefore damaged my relationship with those people. Does that make any sense? I'm thinking also, given that I've read in the past some people saying that they find HA hits more hurtful than PoLR hits, if what I've just written is true, then maybe that's why a PoLR hit (i.e. an actual hit) is so painful - not because you perceive it as a failure of your PoLR but rather a failure of your HA. Again though, I'm not certain about any of this, I'm just throwing it out there to see if anyone else has any insights on the subject.

That also makes sense.

[force my hand]

Just tossing it out there to see if anyone agrees/disagrees...

I think in the case of the ISTp, a boisterous atmosphere can be tolerated quite easily, so long as its impersonal. I think the real trouble starts when gets involved - with expectations coming from others or the ISTp themselves. One example: a benign remark made in a group setting can make me feel extremely betrayed if I have some sort of expectation about the person, thing, or event being described (whereas with some people, the more you poke at them the better they like it). The only exception is if I am extremely familiar with the group.

And on that note I have to wonder if it's not easy for the ISTp's hidden agenda to get the best of them and behave in all sorts of unpredictable ways.