How do you cope with your PoLR? Reactions and compensation.

[Quaris]

*awesome text*

Great post! I always hated when people didn't make sense with their Fi stuff... Once my grandparents told me to hang out more with my young relatives. I said why? We don't get along, they are unintresting for me(+I was probably weird from their POV) and we can't do anything worthwhile because of our differences. Then my grandparents said "Because they are your relatives! You should spend more time with them! When I was your age I always had fun with my cousins."

We always start to fight over things like this.

[April]

I've considered the idea before that the Agenda is something of a reaction against the PoLR (or Agenda against the PoLR as it were). Being that and are vastly different modes of sensory perception, a lot of the reason I think I repel from the aims of is because I see it as an imposition upon which I find eminently desirable. I know PoLRs on the other hand tend to see as something chaotic, unpredictable, and vulgar which represents a fundamental disruption to the they seek.

Interesting idea.

[Tom]

Having Ni polr is sort of like being caught out in the rain because you're fed up with how messy the house is.

[crazedrat]

Focusing on the dual seeking function is the best way to deal with the polr function.

[Timeless]

Fi-polr: This is ILE and SLEs polr. Consequently, it is the best polr. (jk). This involves not having a good gauge for how your actions impact others' inner worlds, especially their dispositions towards you. It's always nice to compare and contrast polr with HA, as they cover the same rough territory and HA is often used to compensate for polr. So, XLEs are fairly good at gauging their interpersonal effect in terms of external things: external expressions of emotion (laughs, smiles, sadness). Given that both ILEs and SLEs are given to axiomatic thinking because of the in their ego, they will often have nice one-to-one signfier-signified relationships in their heads, like "if people laugh at my jokes, then the conversation is going well." (This is part of the way that the -creative incorporates its complementary function, Fe.) However, if, as is often the case with Fi, there is no external sign of the internal feeling (-egos often feel that this cheapens the feeling, or leaves them excessively and unnecessarily vulnerable), the -polr will have very little way to "guess" how the other person is feeling. Also, -polrs are not very good at anticipating.

I always knew there was a big difference between somebody who is actually smiling, laughing and enjoying themselves compared to someone who isn't, but says "You're funny," "You're smart," or whatever. I pay attention to the former more. Even before I got into Socionics, I already knew beforehand if a person wasn't emotionally receptive and expressive, it would be like talking to a rock. The conversation and interaction might be informative, interesting or whatnot, but bland.

[Gilly]

You don't seem like a dick, it's just a bit harder to gauge whether you're interested or not because you periodically behave disinterested regardless of whether you are or not. Most of the time I have a clue, because you are a pretty direct person and it's generally not hard to get a read on you; it can be a little off-putting, but it's not a serious deterrant.

[anndelise]

I'm happy to see some of these responses regarding various manifestations of polr. It's nice to see that some people are considering that there could be more involved than one set behavior/attitude towards what's considered a weakness.

For myself, after being put down and ridiculed for not properly connecting things, or having contradictory beliefs, and knowing that that these were weaknesses of mine, I attempted to learn logic from books, websites, etc. I even joined a forum that was supposedly an intj forum (pre-socionics, kiersian intjs...supposedly a match with kiersian enfps), to try to get some pointers. Other than learning maybe a handful of rules to recognize some fallacies, I could never get far in the books/sites. I did find symbolic logic to be easier to handle, and actually enjoyed that. But I didn't get further than sentential logic, and I don't always use that so well.

And then after learning about the addition rule of logic...I said screw it. At that point, a person can justify ANYthing, and still have it seem like a well thought out reasoned argument where everything fits well together. And even have the premises be true...but the conclusion false. Yeah, that one's thrown me for a definite loop.

Socionics helped me figure out a bit why I have such an issue with the logic. Which was a definite sense of relief for me. And it helped explain and allow me to further refine an alternative approach that I was trying out, which, while not Ti, is far better than what I'd been like when I was younger, lol.

Anyways, as I said, I'm glad to see that some people are looking at a variety of behaviors for the same thing (attitude and actions regarding polr).

[anndelise]

Ugh, yeah ann I definitely relate. I remember when I was about 12-13 or so, ...[]...

12-13???
I was in my mid-20s before I finally decided to try to improve this weakness, and about late 20s by the time I said screw 'logic'.

(Actually, that 'intj forum' helped with that last part too. Those were THE most irrational and illogical people I had ever met!! )

[Exodus]

Personally, I just ignore it. This works surprisingly well. For example, if an leading type tries to get my attention or get me into a confrontation, I'll just ignore him. I find that if you try to engage the PoLR you'll get depressed and probably end up making a fool of yourself. So whereas I could get pissed off at an SEE or SLE, the relationship actually works out pretty ok.

Does anybody else do this? Or do people use other coping strategies?

[ashlesha]

i can't remember a time i've ever actually tried to engage my polr. if its not too personal, do you have an example of trying to engage Se?

my response when i've felt uncomfortable around Se leading types has been to go into this state where i'm stubbornly terse and i try to radiate calmness to counteract what i perceive as invasive energy. like i'm a rock and i won't be, uh, penetrated.

lol, whats your sig?

[Exodus]

i can't remember a time i've ever actually tried to engage my polr. if its not too personal, do you have an example of trying to engage Se?

Well, for example crazedrat said something insulting to me to try to provoke a reaction. I just replied "ok". But I could have told him "fuck you" or something to that effect. Try to defend myself, or throw back another insult.

my response when i've felt uncomfortable around Se leading types has been to go into this state where i'm stubbornly terse and i try to radiate calmness to counteract what i perceive as invasive energy. like i'm a rock and i won't be, uh, penetrated.

Yeah, me too.

lol, whats your sig?

It's a quote by some dude at socionix.

http://forum.socionix.com/topic/3622...the-community/

[Creepy-male]

It's kind of hard to ignore your PoLR when your PoLR seems to be "effectively contributing to society".

I mean, I could live as a slacker, but I have no idea how to.

[Exodus]

It's kind of hard to ignore your PoLR when your PoLR seems to be "effectively contributing to society".

I mean, I could live as a slacker, but I have no idea how to.

lol. At least in American society, it seems like is considered Very Important. But in lots of other countries that's not the case.

btw I'm basically living as a slacker now and so is bionicgoat :wink:

I'm mainly talking about relating to other people, though, like what you do if people criticize you for it.

I either self-consciously worry about and constantly wonder if my actions are in line with what is appropriate or relevant to the situation or else ignore it. When it comes to digesting information, the second I see something explained in a Ti fashion, I just scan through it to see if I can find a concrete explanation of something...to be super vague.

Usually I ignore it. But when it concerns behavior, I self-consciously try to deal with it to the point of losing touch with myself and having a very hard time loosening up and just enjoying myself and being able to entertain people...it sucks.

Yeah, this is the other part of dealing with the PoLR - how to tell the little voices in your head to shut up. It's probably harder than dealing with outside pressure.

[Creepy-male]

Orite.

Well, I actually deal a lot worse with "Creative hits" than PoLR hits. It's extremely painful to be criticised or even condemned for being emotional and not always fully-rational. Being slow-paced, inefficient and unproductive doesn't bother me, especially since picking up Socionics and learning that when people like my LSE grandma give me flak over it it's just an IM thing.

The hardest thing, yeah, is dealing with those inner voices that beat you up over the PoLR suck. The best remedy I've found is to chat with an ILE friend of mine and have her remind me my worth as a human being has nothing to do with my income.

[Exodus]

Everyone does that to crazedrat though. Or at least they should when he does that shit.

ok, maybe a bad example, but I do the same thing with some types IRL.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

What I've found is that I can cope with Se in short bursts, but prolonged exposure starts to depress me like hell.


The effects of this were aptly illustrated to me over the past week that I've been visiting / staying with the family for the holidays.


MY FAMILY:

LIE dad
ESI mom
LSI sister

i.e. entire family is Se-valuing!!


What this translates to is my mom and sister generally bossing me around, with my dad seeing this as perfectly normal, acceptable behaviour.

The result is me feeling increasingly isolated and "ganged up on", nerves frayed, exasperated, and looking forward to the end of this so-called vacation so I can get back home to my quiet cave of an apartment to recover some of my sanity.





At work I have an SEE colleague who I am surprisingly good "friends" with (I use that word with caution). Everything is fine as long as we have enough to gossip and complain about, but once that runs out, the silence becomes truly AWKWARD. I get this overpowering feeling that she is quietly "demanding" the conversation to continue, so I find myself inwardly starting to panic, and trying to come up with something - ANYTHING - to talk about in order to keep her "placated". Then when she finally leaves, I find myself heaving a sigh of relief.





When it comes to SLEs, my experiences with them have been varied. With some of them, the Se is overt and truly overpowering, in which case I avoid them completely, or try to minimise contact as much as possible without being too conspicuous about it. However, there have been a couple times where "escape" has not been possible, and I've been forced to endure massive doses of overt Se. These experiences have always left me feeling drained and traumatised.


On the other hand I've met SLEs who are surprisingly well-behaved and even charming. Against my better judgment I have found myself feeling attracted to some of these guys. I can get along with them quite well, but I have this constant underlying fear that the slightest mistake might cause their Se to explode, so my interaction with them becomes an exhausting balancing act as I try to subtly "manage" the situation to prevent any aggressive outbursts.

[EyeSeeCold]

It's impossible to ignore. You pick up little bits and pieces of information you may need to use later, while being irritated at the same time.

[squark]

polr is easy to ignore. And I don't see anyone really requiring me to use it either, so it's no big deal.

[ashlesha]

ya, i think i just ignore it, my primary strategy being the "rock" thing. i dont remember ever engaging it. ive told people off, but not in a way i would describe as Se. the only thing i can think of is with my old SLE boss when he would get all pissy about something, i would end up in this super-focus frame of mind in an attempt to sort of "be on his level" so i could deal with him. which may have been an attempt on my part to engage Se. it worked well enough, because it kept me standing firm which he seemed to respect. idk if id call it really using Se, though.

the only time i've been blatantly and directly *expected* to use Se has been with my ESI sister. as my older sister, she has this thing with giving me advice and guidance. and at first it can feel really nice to talk to her because she truly understands me on the Fi plane. but when she gets in to the actual advice its all very Se and my reaction is to counter with Ne. so we end up volleying back and forth. with me thinking she is oversimplifying things and invalidating the complexity of the situation, and her seeming to think i'm just being weak or trying to make a ton of excuses. we have a good relationship, but this dynamic has been a source of frustration. so anyway, countering with my creative function has been another response i've had to my polr.

[Exodus]

Maybe you are just patient or smart. I more or less have done the same when provoked (especially using really personal shit, too). If you know it is just to piss you off, why get pissed? Then that makes you look trolled and that's the point. Meh. >_>

Right. And don't get me wrong, it's not necessarily meant to piss anyone off, usually it's just good-natured teasing.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

the only time i've been blatantly and directly *expected* to use Se has been with my ESI sister. as my older sister, she has this thing with giving me advice and guidance. and at first it can feel really nice to talk to her because she truly understands me on the Fi plane. but when she gets in to the actual advice its all very Se and my reaction is to counter with Ne.

Same situation I have with my ESI mom. She always has an Se solution to every problem.

This is great when dealing with spiders and cocroaches, not so great when dealing with "people" problems.


Eg - last night we went out for pizzas. When the pizzas arrived at the table they were slightly burned and needed to be sent back.


MY WAY OF HANDLING THE PROBLEM:

Politely explain the problem to the waitress, knowing it is not HER fault per se, and request new pizzas. Take pains to ensure that the waitress understands that we are not being unreasonable about it, and we are not angry or upset, we just want new pizzas.


MY MOM'S WAY OF HANDLING THE PROBLEM:

Become irritated at the problem, speak to the waitress in irate tones that imply she is at least partly to blame for the pizzas not being up to standard, thus guilting her into a submissive psychological position. Apply pressure on her to fix the problem immediately (tone of voice suggesting that things could get ugly if this is not done at once). After dinner, scan the check for anything that can be negotiated off the total as reparations for the incompetent service, and argue with the waitress and management until they cave in.

(Me cringing on the sidelines, apologising to the restaurant staff after my mom has left the building.)

[Exodus]

MY MOM'S WAY OF HANDLING THE PROBLEM:

Become irritated at the problem, speak to the waitress in irate tones that imply she is at least partly to blame for the pizzas not being up to standard, thus guilting her into a submissive psychological position. Apply pressure on her to fix the problem immediately (tone of voice suggesting that things could get ugly if this is not done at once). After dinner, scan the check for anything that can be negotiated off the total as reparations for the incompetent service, and argue with the waitress and management until they cave in.

(Me cringing on the sidelines, apologising to the restaurant staff after my mom has left the building.)

Where's the ?

[Shagbag The Wizard]

Where's the ?

She starts off very politely and sweetly with everybody, but as soon as somebody fails to live up to her expectations in some way that she considers to be "serious", she starts to apply the pressure on them.

Watching her, it seems like this behaviour is a combination of:

A) "protecting her family" (from the indignity of eating a burnt pizza), and
B) teaching the restaurant staff a lesson in customer service


In all cases the Se behaviour stems from some moral imperative, and only comes out when she perceives that her "minimum acceptable standards" have been breached. She seems compelled to correct this immediately, using direct methods.

[DirectorAbbie]

I've tried a couple times. It was idiotic. Ignoring PoLR is best.

[Aleksei]

I've tried a couple times.

Can you share your experience?

[Timeless]

The hardest thing, yeah, is dealing with those inner voices that beat you up over the PoLR suck. The best remedy I've found is to chat with an ILE friend of mine and have her remind me my worth as a human being has nothing to do with my income.

Ironically that plagued me too for a while.

The whole "If you're not working, doing anything with your life, you're worthless!" which I knew didn't make sense.

Societal programming: the more income/money/status you can have = more happiness/confidence/security you can give yourself.

[Azure Flame]

How do you feel about your polr function or people who use this function? How do you view it? Do you condescend it? Do you glorify it? etc

[Absurd]

I tell it to stop behaving in such a way and scold it immediately if it does.

[mikemex]

Well, I know there is need for Ti in the world. I tolerate its existence, then.

[Galen]

I don't mind Ti in and of itself so long as its kept in check by other systems and isn't allowed to grow into a knotted, tangled mess. All of the Ti types who've really gotten on my nerves have been incomprehensible nutballs to begin with, and I've known quite a few Ti people who I've been able to connect and communicate with in some higher level or another.

[FDG]

I mostly understand my PoLR function by watching my identicals. It´s not that bad. (ftr, I do not believe that dominant can be thougth about as "the negation of having as PoLR", thus I would never try to infer what Si-PoLR is by looking at ISTps).

[Atlast]

Elements don't exist as standalone concepts irrelative of their typological combinations, so one could not possibly express feeling on the element of their POLR.

For instance,

I don't mind Ti in and of itself so long as its kept in check by other systems and isn't allowed to grow into a knotted, tangled mess.

Could you explain to me what this sentence means? The only description wikisocion offers of Ti is as follows;

generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty. It is like common sense, in that it builds on one's expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested.

So Galen takes offense to anything or anyone generally organizing generally logical systems into some kind of generally consistent structure? Of course not. Galen also specifies that Ti should be checked by other 'systems'. How can systems exist externally to check the creation of systems? Words do not work like this. Can the IEE with Ti POLR consistently take offense to LII with Ti base? Yes, it's called a supervisory (LII) relationship and is explained to a certain extent already in the fittingly vague descriptions - but we do not have inter-element or inter-type-element relationships because this is not possible; elements express themselves differently depending on archetypal configuration. Even Jung would primarily describe the functions in anecdotal fashion using examples of how they would manifest in a person of that 'type'.

[DirectorAbbie]

I'm glad I got the most useless function for my PoLR.

[Galen]

Could you explain to me what this sentence means? The only description wikisocion offers of Ti is as follows;

So Galen takes offense to anything or anyone generally organizing generally logical systems into some kind of generally consistent structure? Of course not. Galen also specifies that Ti should be checked by other 'systems'. How can systems exist externally to check the creation of systems? Words do not work like this. Can the IEE with Ti POLR consistently take offense to LII with Ti base? Yes, it's called a supervisory (LII) relationship and is explained to a certain extent already in the fittingly vague descriptions - but we do not have inter-element or inter-type-element relationships because this is not possible; elements express themselves differently depending on archetypal configuration. Even Jung would primarily describe the functions in anecdotal fashion using examples of how they would manifest in a person of that 'type'.

But where will you give me room to explain myself when you're already busy doing it poorly on my behalf?

The incomprehensible Ti nutballs I mentioned are those who lack the meta-cognitive ability to understand their own judgments and biases as they formulate them or draw more elaborate conclusions upon them. This ability is what I refer to as one possible example of "another system" that keeps any normal functioning human being in check.

I also find myself more prone to avoiding talking about the IEs as separate entities, instead favoring to remark on people who exhibit said IE and how they manifest depending on the individual. Most of the INTjs I've known in person haven't consistently offended me because in our interactions we're both intelligent enough to express our own ideas rationally and thoughtfully while keeping in mind the limits of our understanding. It's only when this meta-cognitive process breaks down that I get particularly annoyed, not just towards INTjs but anybody.

[Absurd]

Galen, what's 2+3?

[717495]

I've always found Se to be simply boring. So I feel about my own PoLR rather the opposite. From a more immediate standpoint, Se is a much larger problem, since from ESFps it is not only demanded but completely unmet, more so to the dispirit of my dominant function than theirs'. So I feel both physically and psychologically pulled apart from them, while they (all supervisors) can really only see the problem from the outside.

The reason my dominant function is taken into account is due to a matching relation, the dispirit of dividing Fi amongst ourselves, the tearing of my incentive. From Betas the feeling is just confusion or annoyance, nothing sad.

[Creepy-pokeball]

How do you feel about your polr function or people who use this function? How do you view it? Do you condescend it? Do you glorify it? etc

You want us to talk about our feelingz :[

[Leader]

Maybe wish I was a little better at it, but really...don't care about it. Makes me feel icky, frustrated, and unmanly.

[Azure Flame]

I'm glad I got the most useless function for my PoLR.

I might agree with you on that, LOL

although Fi is pretty useless in a practical sense. It just makes you think everyone feels the same as you when they don't. It also makes up abstract things to argue over like "honor." Useless.

[Radio]

although Fi is pretty useless in a practical sense. It just makes you think everyone feels the same as you when they don't. It also makes up abstract things to argue over like "honor." Useless.

people continue indulging in habits associated with one function or another is because it gets them things in life. a function cannot be useless, that's an oxymoron.