UDP's enneagram type

[Exodus]

Thanks for the reference, reyn.

I am confident that I am a counterphobic 6 sx/sp/so. Very sure about counterphobic and sx variant; not sure about the wing, tending towards w5. Like Megan I'm a lot more 5-like IRL.

fwiw, I identify strongly with this:

When I asked him what he wanted from the development process, he said, "Warren told me that I need to be more creative, more strategic and analytical. I don't think others see my curiosity, because I'm shy and because I don't want to appear stupid. So rather than ask a question, I'll go look it up myself. And they probably don't see my creativity because a lot of times when I have an idea I assume everyone else has already had it--then somebody else will bring up the same idea and people will love it and I'll kick myself for holding back."

http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/strategist.htm

Oh yeah, this too:

Counterphobic Sixes are often defiant or rebellious towards authority and can habitually
challenge imbalances of power, feeling that the world is unfairly biased
against them. Some have a ranting quality, especially when they talk about governments
and power structures. Many counterphobics are wryly funny and good at
satire. When insecure, however, their humor can sting and bite.

http://www.thechangeworks.com/images/SixDL.pdf

[tcaudilllg]

I once observed someone use their person knowledge function ( in that case) to assert their enneagram type, which leads me to believe enneagram is basically interpreted similarly to how I formed my crosstype theory personality descriptions: coherent views and experiences, but not specifically connotated to any known objective point of reference. In other words, it's different to everybody, with intuition filling in the gaps and providing a coherent subjective experiential structure. Enneagram does not directly correspond to either socionics, MBTI, or even Jung; it is rather a conglomeration of many different personality traits that the mind is hardwired (that is, instinctually aware of) to organize and perceive.

People said my earlier crosstype theory didn't conform to reality. In one respect it did, in that it was structurally accurate. But they were right in as much as it failed to correspond to what I had intended for it. In this sense it was very much like enneagram.

(at labcoat: at work)

[krieger]

I noticed that is how you conduct research. It's much the same as my intuition, except it gives complete, coherent views, instead of showing a tiny fraction of the truth at a time... Impressive.

It's not clear to me though, wether you are signaling that your post was a usage of exertion Fe with Ti metabolism or wether the enneagram is.

[tcaudilllg]

I noticed that is how you conduct research. It's much the same as my intuition, except it gives complete, coherent views, instead of showing a tiny fraction of the truth at a time... Impressive.

It's not clear to me though, wether you are signaling that your post was a usage of exertion Fe with Ti metabolism or wether the enneagram is.

Sorry. Ti metabolism Fe exertion. I should note that I find it difficult to explain how I create those profiles. I just write with a specific character in mind and describe its structure.

[UDP]

Some great links on these pages...

Reading the 5 type, I was all prepared to say "yes, I am definitely a 5"
Then reading the 1 information, I felt the same way.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to legitimately split the two.


I do believe I am at base a 5 however, as, up to this point in my life, withdrawal from others and interacting in ways that do not at all induce closeness have been a major element of my interaction forms, more so than seeking perfection. If you didn't know me and just walked up to me and started a conversation, whilst waiting, I imagine you would notice this very clearly, rather than me subconsciously holding back my anger.

But is that who I want to be -- a 5? not necessarily

[FDG]

Very clearly type 1 with disintegration line to 4 that makes you look like a 5 in moments of depression/withdrawal. Compare yourself, your thought processes and your aims with the ones of Niffweed. Half of your rants are about leadership and business, whereas he only wants to be wank at maths (rightfully so).

[UDP]

Woah!

Social/Self-pres (5)

One might think that the energy of this subtype would be warmer and friendlier than that of the self-pres/social, but it doesn’t usually present that way. Because the social instinct is dominant, these Fives are much more aware of their role in the group. They are therefore more careful of their involvements with others. The social arena is more important and is invested with more energy, so these Fives will pull up faster and harder into self-pres mode if they should feel at all threatened. This will sometimes give others the impression of coldness. This subtype will center a lot of their intellectual interest around the workings of society, humanity or spirituality. This serves as their connection with people. By means of these abstract mental constructs, Fives of this subtype feel a sense of belonging socially, without having to be personally involved and invested. The healthier people of this subtype are, the more they are able to integrate their mental constructs with their actual experiences. They can really be content to adopt the role of “people watcher,” but they do it from a closer and closer perspective. Their blind spot revolves around the fact that they tend to convince themselves they can get along just fine in the observer role. It does feel safer to them. [It does feel safer. And yet... I have FULLY come to understand that I cannot, absolutely cannot, sit back and watch any longer. If I am to be involved in this world at all, I have to do more than just watch.] If they do have a few people relatively close to them, they can really strike a good balance between their need to withdraw and their need to connect to the larger social world.

This subtype could be seen as the most intellectual of type Five. The combination of the basic desire for knowing with the social instinct’s need to "fit in," makes people of this subtype want to find a niche as the expert. Their interest in structure, especially social structure, accentuates their natural inclination for acquiring knowledge. With the sexual instinct least developed, this subtype is in the position of having a strong pull towards understanding the workings of the world around them*, without the emotional intensity of the sexual instinct setting up any distraction [I realize I have sexual passion and desire, and ask anyone who knows me well enough in that way for verification...and yet, when dealing with others, I strive for passionlesness, and not think about things "sexually": this is the only way I can have a true clarity and understanding.] These Fives fit the role of the scientist or professor quite well in this respect.

we have a winner.
(link)

Actually, it all makes great sense. (My comments about not being able to sit back and watch anymore are very related to 5 to 8 transition)
Yes.

* --- and understanding the workings around me, I see room for improvement, and therefore, I cannot simply just continue watching. Seeing the room for improvement calls me to action (5 to 8).



PS: The problem with being a 1, FDG, is that I have no anger. I am not striving for perfection, as in, I feel inadequate.
If we met in person, I think it would be easier to see that I am a 5. I won't say that your line of reasoning is false, but the instances you are referring to are not an accurate capture of the whole. My base setting is not to strive for perfection in the doing sense, but to understand in the thinking sense.

My struggle is determining what to consider as the parameters for perfection -- what direction to go in. It is all very well laid out in the above profile IMO. I relate to it greatly, more so than anything listed on the 1 stacks here

I am very glad to find that 5 description, as, more than ANTYHING else I've ever come across on Enneagrams, that I relate to sincerely.

[Blaze]

reyn's link was pretty good. i think i'm either a 6w7 or a 7w6.

[Expat]

PS: The problem with being a 1, FDG, is that I have no anger. I am not striving for perfection, as in, I feel inadequate.
If we met in person, I think it would be easier to see that I am a 5. I won't say that your line of reasoning is false, but the instances you are referring to are not an accurate capture of the whole. My base setting is not to strive for perfection in the doing sense, but to understand in the thinking sense.

My struggle is determining what to consider as the parameters for perfection -- what direction to go in. It is all very well laid out in the above profile IMO. I relate to it greatly, more so than anything listed on the 1 stacks here

I am very glad to find that 5 description, as, more than ANTYHING else I've ever come across on Enneagrams, that I relate to sincerely.

I think it's to be expected that a LII would identify both with 1 and 5.

From my point of view -- that the 16 Socionics types are the "true" types, and that the 9 Enneagram types provide a deeper insight in some of them, but are muddled in others - is that LIIs, especially split or intuitive, have to direct type in the Enneagram. I think that the classical 1s are very rational IJs, so Ti IJs and Fi IJs, but it's easier for LSIs to relate to 1. 5s are a direct descendant of Jung's Introverted Thininking type and therefore are a mix of ILI and LII.

So, UDP, for you as LII, I'd say that you are both a 1 and a 5. Or neither.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

I'm intereted in my enneagram type too, I used to think I was pure five, but I identify with all these bits:

Fives

Self-Preservation
Chief defensive tendency is to withdraw. Sensitive to feeling saturated by the world, Fives with this subtype lose their sense of privacy easily. Can feel knocked over by people's expectations. In isolation they refind their lost sense of balance and build up to the next round of social stresses. More alienated than the other subtypes. May hide in books, live alone or need their own room where they can close themselves off. Take little from others. Sometimes thin. Likely to hoard time and space. Have solitary hobbies and interests, seek comfort and solace alone.

Intimate
Intimate Fives trust only a few people but then do so totally. Friendship is based on the sharing of confidences. Intimacy is equivalent to exchanging secrets. Can go from enigmatic, deliberate distance to intense, unguarded openness. Seductive invitation to sharing secrets; seek a total merging. When entranced can be a little kinky.


Sixes

Self-Preservation
Self-preservation Sixes often display a personal warmth that is meant to defang the potential hostility of others. If they sense aggression or disapproval in the environment, they may counterphobically zero in on it. Use humor, charm, self-depreciation to make friends out of possible enemies. Can flatter like Twos, play themselves down, work to maintain other people's affection. Act vulnerable, invite rescue. Ingratiating, but more nervously dependent than other Six subtypes. Also less in touch with their own hostility. Their home environment is sometimes important. May feel like their house is a fortress against the outside world's dangers. Worry about their ability to survive; have scary "worst-that-can-happen" fantasies.

Sevens

Intimate
Intimate Sevens tend to garnish and embellish reality with fantasy. Intimate relationships are often thought of as shared experimental adventures, and the Seven perceives their partner through a veil of imagination. May romanticize others as a way to avoid the limits and boredom of mundane life with the same old someone. Can be more involved with their fantasy of the partner than with the real person.

Social
Social Sevens often feel a tension between duty to others and the desire to escape. Tend to feel responsible for the people around them and experience that as a confining burden. They then react against the weight of obligation, seeking variety and craving change. When entranced, can be highly irresponsible. When awakened, they make peace with commitment and sacrifice and are often very stable and generous. Often an idealism, sometimes a stronger connection to 1. Serving something beyond themselves, dutiful.

Sometimes me:

Sixes

Intimate
Sixes with this subtype tend to act strong or seductive when insecure. They are much more likely to be counterphobic, especially the men. May seem like Eights, take risks, talk tough. Act powerful and in control at the times when they feel most frightened. Worry about looking weak, having their fears show. May act arrogant but aren't really.

Social
Social Sixes tend to be dutiful and especially dependent upon authority. More often phobic than counterphobic. Often dedicated to a cause. When acting alone they will still refer to others in their mind for safety and agreement[...]May imagine they can't live without the group's support: "If I don't play by the rules I'll be out on the street selling pencils."

I was more like this when I was younger, but not anymore :

Eights

Self-Preservation
Self-preservation Eights often grow up poor or struggling. Food, home, money may be crucial. Generally seek control over their immediate environment and may worry about survival. Tend to value things over people.[...]Sometimes domineering towards those within their sphere. Might preach an ethic of selfishness - justify their bullying of intimates as necessary to "toughen them up" for the hard world outside. Life is a jungle, only the strong survive. Survivalist mentality, territorial imperatives, angry at family members because they threaten household objects. Hiding in and presiding over their castle

[krieger]

Sorry. Ti metabolism Fe exertion. I should note that I find it difficult to explain how I create those profiles. I just write with a specific character in mind and describe its structure.

Not entirely sure about this; but I sometimes think you use exertion Fe as a way of directly percieving 'symbols'... you seem very fond of words like 'energy', 'kinetics', 'motion', etc. What is special about these words, is that it is very easy to say of any specific thing wether it falls under those words or not (true/false = judgment), and yet, when taken outside their context, do not change in meaning. From what I can tell, that latter aspect refers to an information element being 'internal' as opposed to 'external'.

You'll find that I, as an exertion Te favoring person, have a habbit of defining words for every specific occasion. 'In this case internal means this, in the next it may mean something else.' Hence the obsessive single quote use. This is contrary to your own way of treating words, isn't it?

(edit: on second thought what I'm seeing could also be due to Ni/Se...)

[Khamelion]

I put this elsewhere...6w7 and concidering 4w3. Ruled 2 out altogether, makes sense as my Stress If I am a 4 though. 6w7 Stress/Growth fits really well though.

Yadayada...

[Khamelion]

Says I'm type 2

Type 2 describes essentially a Socionics ESFj, but I can see any Fe-ego type testing as 2.

Yea

[Ezra]

UDP, out of interest, why did you decide you were 8w9 over 1w9?

[UDP]

UDP, out of interest, why did you decide you were 8w9 over 1w9?

I've not been over this before?
Some brief reasoning:


- I got out several enneagram books, most notably some Riso ones, and it became clear that I was not a 1. The "red flag" (I believe that was it) warnings in the book were notable because it showed how 1s, when really unhealthy, keep believing in outrageously high standards, while telling themselves excuses and letting themselves slide. That was foreign to me, because when I am really in a bad way, the last thing that comes to mind are trying to find explanations for why I am still "acting good", despite what I do, and how I am still "better than others".

E8 made much more sense, because, when i am down and out, all my relationships come into question. I become uncertain, and wary of what is going on, and I will act in ways that sometimes are too direct or controlling, even when motivated by fear or insecurity, so as to not be controlled or manipulated by others, especially people who I might be emotionally connected or sensitive too. So the regressions are much different. Also, the general nature of their growth. Growing into 2 makes a lot, lot of sense. I can be quite conceited, unfortunately. There were also other factors from the book but that comes closest to the top of my mind.


- Also, how I interpret my role in organizations. It is extremely displeasing for me to be in a lower position, and the most uncomfortable thing is when I am denied access to information in what is going on. I cannot stand that. I will not take some lower subordinate position and hold it there for very long if there is no upward progress (provided I really want to be involved in the place). I will never much accept, as one individual said, that "it is none of my business" to know certain things about the organization - this was said to me when I am on the Eboard itself. I don't really care what position I am in, I just want to know what is going on, and if I am not pleased with how much I know, and how comfortable in terms I feel about how much power and information I have, then I am not going to stick around, or put up with a that situation.

- real life experience, comparing how an unhealthy one gets angry with myself. When I really get angry I just tend to "go for the kill". I try to prevent that as much as possible, as I prefer to be more calm and level (8w9, not 8w7).... 8w9 sp/sx/so, for the record. Seeing an E1 get angry, and how they actually called me "evil" or "bad", well, I did not much relate to that. I tend to just destroy or take whatever shots I can, I don't really put effort into trying to make myself seem ethically superior, or more perfect.


... and so on.



PS: and things like this, too

* If you DO try to cover something up, and try to prevent me from knowing or seeing what is going on, then you absolutely, instantly, irrefutably begin losing my respect

(from "another sort of rant" thread)

[Ezra]

To be honest, UDP, none of that is indicative of type Eight.

[UDP]

Ok............

then say what it is indicative of. And say why it is not indicative of an 8.

[Ezra]

- I got out several enneagram books, most notably some Riso ones, and it became clear that I was not a 1. The "red flag" (I believe that was it) warnings in the book were notable because it showed how 1s, when really unhealthy, keep believing in outrageously high standards, while telling themselves excuses and letting themselves slide. That was foreign to me, because when I am really in a bad way, the last thing that comes to mind are trying to find explanations for why I am still "acting good", despite what I do, and how I am still "better than others".

a) the levels of health should be taken with a pinch of salt. They're not the be all and end all of one's Enneagram type. The core motivations and in-depth behavioural study is far more important than a few brief sentences on each 'level of health'.

b) just because you don't identify with an aspect of an unhealthy One doesn't mean you're not a One. Look at this:

The realisation that they have created powerful enemies who are capable of defeating them is too much for unhealthy Eights. They try to destroy everything rather than let anyone triumph over them or control them. They can go on rampages, remorselessly ruining everything in their path, possibly murdering others in the process

When I'm in a 'bad way', I don't act like that, therefore I can't be an Eight.

Bullshit. Try again.

E8 made much more sense, because, when i am down and out, all my relationships come into question. I become uncertain, and wary of what is going on, and I will act in ways that sometimes are too direct or controlling, even when motivated by fear or insecurity, so as to not be controlled or manipulated by others, especially people who I might be emotionally connected or sensitive too. So the regressions are much different.

This sounds like you've directly quoted R&H or something. I don't think relationships coming into question is particularly characteristic of the Eight. Indeed, if you're on good terms with the someone and you're an Eight, the chances are you will never call your relationships into question, because you have already let this person into your life. You've let them come to you. You've given them your trust. What you speak of here is far more characteristic of a counterphobic Six than of an Eight.

Also, the general nature of their growth. Growing into 2 makes a lot, lot of sense.

Please elaborate.

I can be quite conceited, unfortunately.

You don't say. Threes are best at this, with 2w3s coming close.

There were also other factors from the book but that comes closest to the top of my mind.

Let me know if you find any that are remotely revelatory.

Also, how I interpret my role in organizations. It is extremely displeasing for me to be in a lower position [...]

Why?

the most uncomfortable thing is when I am denied access to information in what is going on. I cannot stand that.

I don't think anyone likes that, to be honest.

I will not take some lower subordinate position and hold it there for very long if there is no upward progress (provided I really want to be involved in the place).

This is called ambition. Ones, Twos, Threes, Fours, Fives, Sixes, Sevens and Eights have ambition, UDP.

I will never much accept, as one individual said, that "it is none of my business" to know certain things about the organization - this was said to me when I am on the Eboard itself.

Then you won't get far in the corporate world.

I don't really care what position I am in, I just want to know what is going on, and if I am not pleased with how much I know, and how comfortable in terms I feel about how much power and information I have, then I am not going to stick around, or put up with a that situation.

Why not? Any Eight would realise that they have to work to get to the top. They start as a grunt, and they become a Field Marshal. You have to be a shelve stacker before you can become CEO. If you're quitting before you've even begun, you're just giving up. No Eight gives up like that.

When I really get angry I just tend to "go for the kill".

Explain what you mean by this.

I try to prevent that as much as possible, as I prefer to be more calm and level (8w9, not 8w7).... 8w9 sp/sx/so, for the record.

8w9s do not 'prefer' to be more calm and level; they just are. Your anger is blatently not like that of an 8w9. 8w9s are calm and grounded, then their anger slowly rises, they explode, and then it goes. They don't keep a tight reign on it, as you have explained you do. That is how a One's anger operates. Eights are never ashamed to express their anger or disgust; it is part of their character.

Seeing an E1 get angry, and how they actually called me "evil" or "bad", well, I did not much relate to that.

I would love to see that on camera. It would provide me with great amusement.

I tend to just destroy or take whatever shots I can, I don't really put effort into trying to make myself seem ethically superior, or more perfect.

HAH!

Seriously, I advise you to start analysing your forum behaviour, and then come back to me.

... and so on.

This is what people say when they've run out of arguments. If you have any more, share them; if not, concede. You've lost this battle, whether or not you like it.

PS: and things like this, too

Quote which irrefutably backs up UDP's claim that he is an 8w9

(from "another sort of rant" thread)

So what. What human wants to be left in ignorance about something? Who wants to be excluded from the joke; the gossip; the latest news? No one likes this, UDP.

[Ezra]

Just an intuition I had today while I was cleaning the kitchen. He's cold and aloof. He's obsessed with receiving information. Probably a social Five.

[Phaedrus]

Just an intuition I had today while I was cleaning the kitchen. He's cold and aloof. He's obsessed with receiving information. Probably a social Five.

Your intuition is wrong in this case. UDP is not a Five. That is a fact, so let's not discuss this further.

[Phaedrus]

Why not a One?

UDP is either a One or an Eight. That's an indisputable fact.

[Elro]

UDP is either a One or an Eight. That's an indisputable fact.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Phaedrus]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It means exactly what I think it means.

[Rubicon]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

What you think is irrelevant.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

It means exactly what I think it means.

Haha. Which is different to what everyone else thinks it means is what you are saying?

[Phaedrus]

Haha. Which is different to what everyone else thinks it means is what you are saying?

No. Why shouldn't I assume that people can use concepts correctly? That's why I expect people to use these concepts exactly the same way I am using them.

[Ezra]

Your intuition is wrong in this case. UDP is not a Five. That is a fact, so let's not discuss this further.

Why not a One?

He doesn't have this excessive moralising or preaching behaviour of the One. He doesn't seem to have an overarching goal or mission in life as all Ones do.

UDP is either a One or an Eight. That's an indisputable fact.

Okay, you clearly think he is LSE. So what about this: what if he's not an LSE?

What you think is irrelevant.

That's not a very nice way to treat your Activation partner.

[aestrivex]

what about 9w8?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

What type does UDP say he is? Ezra's saying a one is unlikely, i'm not sure if he's an 8, as he seems to go about explaining himself, from what i've seen in his posts.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Phaedrus]

Okay, you clearly think he is LSE.

No, I don't. I think that it is quite possible that UDP is an LSE.

So what about this: what if he's not an LSE?

If he is not an LSE, then he is either an LII (as he thought himself initially) or an LSI. And the convenient truth about all this is that it doesn't matter at all which of these three possible types he really is, because if he is an LSI he is a One, and if he is an LII he is a One too, because in that case it is obvious that he belongs to the subgroup of LIIs that are Ones. He could even be an LIE, and he would still be an Eight. So the inevitable conclusion is that UDP is necessarily either a One or an Eight.

what about 9w8?

A ridiculous suggestion. UDP cannot be a 9 because it is extremely clear that he does not have an IP temperament, and he is not an ethical type either. How can people misunderstand type 9 so gravely?

[UDP]

He doesn't have this excessive moralising or preaching behaviour of the One. He doesn't seem to have an overarching goal or mission in life as all Ones do.

You can't even keep your own story straight.
Not that it is anything new.

ESI: The Case for UDP
07-14-2008, 11:46 AM

...
The second question, arguably more important than the first, is why he is Fi base and not, say, Te base. The answer is threefold. Firstly, there is this moralistic drive in UDP, contrary to whatever he might say about any "morals". I'm making no claims about said system, and what he values morally and what he does not value, nor am I attempting to assign any specific moral code to his own agenda. What I am arguing for is that UDP displays complete support for what he would (and does) deem to be morally righteous. For a start, there is his affinity with Minde, which he would argue is duality. In actual fact, what UDP is appealing to is not her Fi to aid his own efforts in a Fi dual seeking way; rather, he is identifying with that in which he is competent and that in which he is glad to see that Minde is competent also. UDP himself willingly expresses moralistic sentiments about any given person's behaviour, without the help of any Fi ego individual.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

UDP, I think you have a good case there.

[machintruc]

Okay, you clearly think he is LSE. So what about this: what if he's not an LSE?

0+- LSE's exist. I've known at least one girl I thought she was 0+0 ESE, but actually 0+- LSE.

But, I've never heard of a S0D- ESI. Maybe there are rare cases of 0-- and/or 00-

[Socionics Is A Cult]

0+- LSE's exist. I've known at least one girl I thought she was 0+0 ESE, but actually 0+- LSE.

But, I've never heard of a S0D- ESI. Maybe there are rare cases of 0-- and/or 00-

Hmm, she can't have been a very girly girl.

[machintruc]

Hmm, she can't have been a very girly girl.

Actually, she was. That's why I thought she was ESE.

[Expat]

I haven't read the previous posts, but for whatever it's worth I think it's far more likely that UDP is a 1 or 8 than a 5.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

yeah he doesn't seem to behave like an 8... 1 seems more like it... but he knows himself better than any of us of course

[FDG]

No. Why shouldn't I assume that people can use concepts correctly? That's why I expect people to use these concepts exactly the same way I am using them.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Ezra]

What type does UDP say he is?

UDP believes he's an 8w9. On the board, and even less on cam, does he give the air off of, look, move, talk or write like an 8w9. And 8w7 is laughable, but I doubt even he's stupid enough to believe he's an 8w7.

Give me a break. The most moralizing and preaching person on this forum is BulletsandDoves and he's absolutely NOT a One.

D&B doesn't moralise. He whines.

I am a One, and wouldn't consider myself to have some sort of mission in life.

Why are you a One? (Phaedrus, don't answer for her.)

If he is not an LSE, then he is either an LII (as he thought himself initially) or an LSI. And the convenient truth about all this is that it doesn't matter at all which of these three possible types he really is, because if he is an LSI he is a One, and if he is an LII he is a One too, because in that case it is obvious that he belongs to the subgroup of LIIs that are Ones. He could even be an LIE, and he would still be an Eight. So the inevitable conclusion is that UDP is necessarily either a One or an Eight.

A ridiculous suggestion. UDP cannot be a 9 because it is extremely clear that he does not have an IP temperament, and he is not an ethical type either. How can people misunderstand type 9 so gravely?

You massive fucker of an LSI.

UDP, I think you have a good case there.

No he doesn't. I said UDP moralises; that doesn't mean he excessively moralises.