LSI-IEE Conflict Relations (ISTj and ENFp)

[Kristiina]

From my experience with an ISTj lab specialist, he has specific ways for people to do things. I forget easily, so I'm constantly asking questions. And he doesn't mind answering them. I even ask the same question again when the situation has barely changed and he gladly gives me the same answer just as happily as if I had never asked about it in the first place. A couple of times he has had a blaming look like I should know something already or that I should have noticed something and then I'll get very worried that I don't learn fast enough - he notices my distress and teaches me the same thing again. (I guess that's what PotatoSpirit meant by looking ashamed and sorry). It doesn't feel like he's demanding that much of me, because when I show him that I tried to do exactly like he said but I failed, I'll feel inadequate for failing and he immidiately changes his attitude from strict to friendly. He wants everything to go as he plans, but when he sees that it's emotionally hurting someone, he'll realize that he's demanding too much. (I guess that's what PotatoSpirit meant about forgiving many things for Fe).

It is very important to show the ISTj that you REALLY try to do everything according to her charts and procedures. Give your best and don't worry about asking lots of questions. She'll apprechiate the effort and respect you for giving your best.

[Expat]

It is very important to show the ISTj that you REALLY try to do everything according to her charts and procedures. Give your best and don't worry about asking lots of questions. She'll apprechiate the effort and respect you for giving your best.

I agree. An ISTj good friend of mine works with an ENFp woman since decades. What he finds exasperating is how she seems to forget deadlines, appointments, etc. But he likes her as a person. If the ENFp at least tries to do it right, the ISTj will appreciate it.

[PotatoSpirit]

Yeah Kristiina knows her stuff (c:

[mr_maguoo]

Try not to talk in a speculative manner and don't make tentative statements, possibly . Don't start an argument with them, otherwise things will really kick off...agree with them over 'small' things, and don't try to change their system - at least ask their opinion before implementing such a change first :wink:.

Why does everyone think ISTjs are robots? ISTJs have no problem with speculation, so long as it has a logical base ENFps are annoying to ISTjs in that they are unreliable, forgetful and uncommitted. An ISTJ will assume that this behaviour is wilful and controllable rather than just apart of the ENFps personality makup. An ISTj assumes that an ENFp chooses not to focus on details, when it might be more accurate to say that ENFps are focussed on other things. If you make an effort to be conscientious and reliable, you'll earn the respect of an ISTj. If your charming and externalise your emotions you can win thier hearts too. :wink:

[Megan]

If your charming and externalise your emotions you can win thier hearts too. :wink:

I have long disliked the word charm...it is associated in my mind with something rather contrived and not genuine.

[Kristiina]

If your charming and externalise your emotions you can win thier hearts too. :wink:

I have long disliked the word charm...it is associated in my mind with something rather contrived and not genuine.

you have to treat two phrases differently - "to be charming" and "to charm someone". The first is a good thing, the second is usually associated with mystic female fiends.

[astralsilky]

I've been really looking forward to volunteering at my daughter's school. I got a call that the librarian really needed help, so I said GREAT I'd be glad to help in the library. I went in to get trained and guess what? Yep, the librarian is an ISTj.

So what about ENFps annoys you the most? Are there any characteristics I can maybe try to hold back on a bit while I'm working with her? Any advice for how to get along with her better than I usually get along with ISTjs? Things have not been pretty in the past. But of course I didn't know about Socionics then. Perhaps knowledge will be power.

Try pretending s/he's your dual, and hope for the best.

The power of belief about how well you two relate on a human-to-human level has far more weight than whatever your intertype relations may be. Believe and hope in the best, and relations may go ok. And as problems emerge, then maybe consider what priorities the other may be holding which you were not meeting. IME it's better to relate naturally rather than according to preconcieved notions per socionics, because people WILL always surprise you.

[Slacker]

I've worked with ISTjs before. Relationships are predictable.

But I am being careful to be on time and to do what she wants as she wants it done. She is a very nice woman, regardless of how particular she is, and I'm sure that if I'm careful things will be OK. But I can't treat her like an ISTp. If I see an ISTp doing something one way and I think another way might be a good idea, the ISTp will appreciate that. This woman would not. She wants things done her way. I am volunteering for her - it's her library and she can have things done how she wants.

Knowing how ISTjs see the world helps when working with ISTjs. Pretending she isn't an ISTj won't help with diddly.

[lefty]

I've been really looking forward to volunteering at my daughter's school. I got a call that the librarian really needed help, so I said GREAT I'd be glad to help in the library. I went in to get trained and guess what? Yep, the librarian is an ISTj.

So what about ENFps annoys you the most? Are there any characteristics I can maybe try to hold back on a bit while I'm working with her? Any advice for how to get along with her better than I usually get along with ISTjs? Things have not been pretty in the past. But of course I didn't know about Socionics then. Perhaps knowledge will be power.

just brainwash her and use her for your own greedy purposes like any other ENFP.

lefty, ENFJ

[Kristiina]

I've been really looking forward to volunteering at my daughter's school. I got a call that the librarian really needed help, so I said GREAT I'd be glad to help in the library. I went in to get trained and guess what? Yep, the librarian is an ISTj.

So what about ENFps annoys you the most? Are there any characteristics I can maybe try to hold back on a bit while I'm working with her? Any advice for how to get along with her better than I usually get along with ISTjs? Things have not been pretty in the past. But of course I didn't know about Socionics then. Perhaps knowledge will be power.

just brainwash her and use her for your own greedy purposes like any other ENFP.

lefty, ENFJ

Slacker Mom is one of the very very few decent ENFps. I know two ENFps like that - Slacker Mom and my older sister. Don't expect the typical annoying-as-hell ENFp behavior from Slacker Mom - if you ever met her, you'd probably have long interesting conversations with her, and the only thing that would bother you is that she tries too hard to understand you, without really arguing that much. If Slacker Mom ever met ******, she'd tell him with a polite non-aggressive smile, "Well, I wouldn't kill people, but I guess I see what you mean by jews getting good jobs. We have different world views, tell me again why you think killing them would solve the problem." While other ENFps would handle the same situation by twitching with passive aggressive fury and saying "bad person" under their breath. Assuming Anndelise is ENFp, then some very rare ENFps would twich with fury until they snap and say, "you are a bad person and you have to stop killing people."

[lefty]

Slacker Mom is one of the very very few decent ENFps. I know two ENFps like that - Slacker Mom and my older sister. Don't expect the typical annoying-as-hell ENFp behavior from Slacker Mom - if you ever met her, you'd probably have long interesting conversations with her, and the only thing that would bother you is that she tries too hard to understand you, without really arguing that much. If Slacker Mom ever met ******, she'd tell him with a polite non-aggressive smile, "Well, I wouldn't kill people, but I guess I see what you mean by jews getting good jobs. We have different world views, tell me again why you think killing them would solve the problem." While other ENFps would handle the same situation by twitching with passive aggressive fury and saying "bad person" under their breath. Assuming Anndelise is ENFp, then some very rare ENFps would twich with fury until they snap and say, "you are a bad person and you have to stop killing people." [/quote]

it seems to me it would be more appropriate to snap at ******. the only reason to withhold judgement on people, in my opinion, is because you want something from them. I find your hypothetical situation to be disturbing. ENFPs are meddeling mothers and it seems to me this woman wants gratifcation to feel she's part of her son's education. I think its a control tactic or strategy. and also oddly enough i think istp who said its just volunteering was right, although i cant' stand istps. Futhermore i think enfps empathy for istps is sometimes just the case of empathizing with evil and not interviening...and yeah probably because they want something from them.

lefty
enfj
4w5

[jewels]

I recently realized that one of my friends I see pretty often is an ISTJ! I was rather shocked, but not really. We mostly go out to clubs. I do have to censor what I say around her, and not react to some of her strong opions. All in all though, we don't have too much conflict on a surface level, and I thought a conflict relationship would be far worse!

I do appreciate a lot of things about her personality. She's direct, so it's easy to make plans w/ her, and we tend to agree as far as where to meet up, etc. There isn't much "fluff" with her, so that's good. She also appreciates my silliness/fun side, and I like that she seems stable and responsible, as I otherwise could easily get into "trouble" when out and about. But, sometimes she deters any fun at all, while I'm attempting to talk to strangers. But she's the type you can count on to not wander off with some guy and then you don't have a ride home or whatever.

The only time it's a problem is when this happens...

her "I want to do X with my life. It would be so exciting to do X."
me "do it!"
her "No, I can't."
me "If it's what you want it's possible!"
her "No, beause of Y." (she does not want to hear any way around Y) Any attempt to bring up anything else will result in her saying "but no, because of Y." Even if Y is something that can be changed or whatever.

Then I get annoyed that she refuses to see the potential. She gets annoyed that I keep encouraging her to do what she considers to be impossible things.

Another typical conversation:

Her "all men suck"
me "Well, not ALL of them. Sure, some do. But I've met good ones. (give examples)"
Her "all men suck"
me "Well, not really, because like I just said...blah blah."
Her "No, they all suck. You were wrong about the ones you knew. They were pretending not to suck, but they really did."

and so on. Eventually I just stop repeating myself, and she continues saying the same things.

I was talking to another ISTJ today and found him to be very refreshing! It was a great conversation! He had such firm opinions and was good hearted about them all. He was even talking about psychology and our society. Surprisingly, he was very encouraging about my artsy interests (the things that TJs are often kinda like "yeah that's too flighty or artsy"). I do find myself attempting to do more Fe around the ISTJs and sometimes it feels un-natural to me, but I can tell they need it. I know long-term an ISTJ would be baaad for me, but I can really see how valuable they are for society, and they're good guys I think. For aquaintances, I think they're quite fun and sort of wake me up.

So I do think conflicting pairs can definitely enjoy good conversations. I'm not sure if it'd ever work to be super close, since you offend eachother easily. But at least I think it's pretty easy to tell how you can offend them, and avoid it.

At least, it seems super clear to me what ISTJs need, and sometimes enfp is not what they need! So that's when I keep my mouth shut.

[PotatoSpirit]

Nice one Jewels (c:

Her "all men suck"
me "Well, not ALL of them. Sure, some do. But I've met good ones. (give examples)"
Her "all men suck"
me "Well, not really, because like I just said...blah blah."
Her "No, they all suck. You were wrong about the ones you knew. They were pretending not to suck, but they really did."

Weird, it's usually the opposite when we talk about girls as far as the opinions go, but definitely like that for the way we say things.

[tcaudilllg]

At least you're not married. I've seen conflictor marriages up close and they are NASTY.

[jewels]

I think there are two types of ISTJS. The serious ones, and the ones who want to let loose and have fun. The serious ones tend to avoid me, but the other type seems to seek me out. Some ISTJs are very, very social and like to kinda get out of their routine I think. The "wild" ISTJs.

But the more serious ones I think get frustrated with me very easily. Obligations and committment are sooo important to ISTJs, and to me, well, I forget things...not on purpose

[mr_maguoo]

I think there are two types of ISTJS. The serious ones, and the ones who want to let loose and have fun. The serious ones tend to avoid me, but the other type seems to seek me out. Some ISTJs are very, very social and like to kinda get out of their routine I think. The "wild" ISTJs.

But the more serious ones I think get frustrated with me very easily. Obligations and committment are sooo important to ISTJs, and to me, well, I forget things...not on purpose

Don't you realise that it's the same person oscillating from business matters to party mode?

[jewels]

I think there are two types of ISTJS. The serious ones, and the ones who want to let loose and have fun. The serious ones tend to avoid me, but the other type seems to seek me out. Some ISTJs are very, very social and like to kinda get out of their routine I think. The "wild" ISTJs.

But the more serious ones I think get frustrated with me very easily. Obligations and committment are sooo important to ISTJs, and to me, well, I forget things...not on purpose

Don't you realise that it's the same person oscillating from business matters to party mode?

Yeah that's possible. But I haven't seen both sides in the same ISTJ (which doesn't mean it's not there of course). I've seen these people in lots of different situations and known them for years. One only talks about work, even when he's at a party, and I've never seen him let loose or be silly at all, not even at home.

And the other, for the most part, wants to laugh and forget all about responsible things. She encourages me to do anything silly, and the more outlandish the joke, the better. Around me, she is not serious for more than a few minutes.

Subtype thing maybe?

[ScarlettLux]

LOL, 100% serious LSIs? Do not exist! They all have that awesome fun quality underneath .. usually it's not even underneath, it's like, RIGHT below that shiny veneer they put on .. all you literally have to do is smile big at them and laugh a lot... that veneer breaks so easily!

[meatburger]

This is a conversation i just had with my ISTj father about his brother and Goji Juice. His brother has recently had a heart attack requiring a stint etc. I haven't represented both sides perfectly i just thought it was funny.

Dad: My brother is going to get me a crate of goji juice, its working wonders in bringinging down his prostate levels etc.
Me: Ahh i see. How much is it?
Dad: $50 per bottle
Me: Jees i hope it works for that cost.
Dad: It's definately working for him so it should work for me. They are always finding natural cures from berries etc all the time
I wouldn't be suprised if say blackberries are found to be as beneficial as Goji though. Plus his handicapped son drank 3 litres of it and has been sleeping like a baby ever since.
Me: Haha he must have been pissed off about that. Hmm ok, give it a try then, i just hope it works
Dad: It has worked for him, his prostate levels have come down
Me: Well i dunno there could be other reasons
Dad: He said he hasn't changed his diet etc at all, its just the juice
Me: I dunno maybe its the placebo affect. Just because 50 shoddy websites say Goji juice is a miracle cure doesn't mean it is.
Dad: your not listening to me. You're too Skeptical
Me: well your brother is the typical person who wants an easy solution for everything
Dad: No he isn't
Me: Yes he is. Hes always going into some pyramid scheme. How many times has he asked you for money to pay for one of those? thats
why im skeptical of this juice.
Dad: mumbles.. maybe he is a little
Me: You know if he was smart, he would quit smoking. In fact i BET that theres 100 times more benefit from him quitting smoking
over drinking goji juice.
Dad: Thats not what we are talking about, we are talking about the Goji juice fixing his prostate problems which it seems to have
done.
Me: but wouldn't it be common sense for him to stop smoking instead.
Dad: His smoking is not the issue, he doesn't have heart problems anymore he has prostate cancer problems.
Me: well smoking is probablly causing them aswell
Dad: You dont know how to form a logical argument. Smoking doesn't cause every type of cancer
Me: well Smoking seems to cause a lot of problems, i wouldn't be suprised.
Dad: If you can find a link to smoking and prostate cancer go right ahead
Me: ok. Came back after dinner with an article saying it may be 60 times more likely for long time smokers to have prostate
problems.

Anyway, it wasn't really an argument for once, it was more of a conversation. I dont think i ever wanted to deny that Goji juice might be awesome (i certianlly hope it is). I also dont think he ever denied that smoking is bad for his brother after a heart attack. We just both decided to talk about entirely different points and stick by them.

Heres an article on the juice. It could be promising
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2189422

[xyz]

Oh man...I don't want to meet ISTj's now

[meatburger]

Oh man...I don't want to meet ISTj's now

Hmm i would like to say that probablly when anyone posts something they have their own agenda, but i didn't want to portray him in a bad light. Its hard for me to replicate his clear cut and logical points. Plus it is an emotionally charged issue for him as it was about his sick brother

[xyz]

I've met people like this though, who basically use the logic "well if it worked for him, then it'll work for me too!" instead of "If it worked for him, it might work for me too". They basically stick to whatever thought they had beforehand, even if new evidence might come up that suggests otherwise.

But fuck, that must be some pretty awesome juice.

[meatburger]

But fuck, that must be some pretty awesome juice.

The word on the street is that it rox. Ive heard its even better than these guys juice

[Park]

I don't believe in any of this type of crap. And I wouldn't give a fuck if someone (anyone) told me that Goji juice has (or hasn't) worked for them. It would mean nothing to me. The only thing I could be interested in hearing would be a logical (scientific/medical) explanation of why and how it has worked. Like what ingredient had this or that effect on this or that aspect of the problem, and why.

[Park]

Now LokiVG wouldn't want to meet me either. I am worse than ISTjs lol

[xyz]

I don't know, I mean, wasn't there a logical/scientific explanation for why cholesterol (esp from eggs) was super bad for you?

Now they're flip flopping and saying "oh oh no! there's GOOD and BAD cholesterol!"... I'm like why the fuck didn't you say that in the fucking first place.

I just tend to think a lot of times scientists (especially nutritionists) are talking out of their ass.

[tiny_dancer]

haha This reminds me of one of my old bosses who was obsessed with Penta water. Went around spreading the gospel of engineered water, but nevermind the fact that he was on 10 different drugs and drank every night. Water, though, that'll kill 'ya!

(I'm not drawing any sort of parallel between the two of them - my boss was beyond psycho - this thread just brought up some amusing memories)

[Park]

Now they're flip flopping and saying "oh oh no! there's GOOD and BAD cholesterol!"... I'm like why the fuck didn't you say that in the fucking first place.

I just tend to think a lot of times scientists (especially nutritionists) are talking out of their ass.

It's all about business. They must have that attitude in the media in order to support the food products marketplace. Products with cholesterol must be sold too, you know.

[xyz]

It's all about business. They must have that attitude in the media in order to support the food products marketplace. Products with cholesterol must be sold too, you know.

Yeah, that does make a hell of a lot of sense. It's gotten so bad that I always ask myself now "does ANYONE get a profit from this...". If so, the message is usually pretty warped.

[marooned]

I read about it. It appears to be rich in anti-oxidants and vitamins and has 19 amino acids.

[PotatoSpirit]

I read about it. It appears to be rich in anti-oxidants and vitamins and has 19 amino acids.

Ah damn, if it got to 20 I'd buy it )c:

[marooned]

Ah damn, if it got to 20 I'd buy it )c:

(c:

[meatburger]

I read about it. It appears to be rich in anti-oxidants and vitamins and has 19 amino acids.

Holy cow 19... that has to trump even KFC. It only has 11 herbs and species (i mean spices). When he gets it we will monitor his levels and if my dad turns into a man with super human strength i will let you all know.

[meatburger]

It's from the Goji berry in the Himalayas. You can buy 32 oz for only $29.95 + S&H. It's recommended you drink it for the rest of your life. Apple and pear juice may be added for flavor.

Yes, you should keep a careful log of your father's progress.

You are the son my father never had Loki. (semi serious).

[aka-kitsune]

It's all about business. They must have that attitude in the media in order to support the food products marketplace. Products with cholesterol must be sold too, you know.

Not necessarily. Science is inexact and often can't always account for every contingency. Individual genetics is really still quite a wildcard.

[Mariano Rajoy]

Goji juice sounds like the biggest gimmick ever. The backstory of a stupid berry from the Himalayas is too much of a fantasy. Like when they were searching for a cure for aids in the rain forest in the mid-late 1990's. Pop culture produces the most bizarre marketing angles. If it was such a miracle, it would be distributed for free like the polio vaccination in the 1950's.

[PotatoSpirit]

Anti-oxidants are anti-aging because... oxygen is so very corrosive. We need it to survive but all the while it's inside us corroding our cells and tissues.

Anti-oxidants by themselves are useless, it has been proved over and over again.
Diets rich in anti-oxidant foods are healthy, but who knows why that is... could be something else that happens to be in the same foods, which may or may not act together with anti-oxidants.

Potato's smiley's have always freaked me out.

And they make me go like this:

Yeah, I do it for your neck problems.

[marooned]

.

[ScarlettLux]

LOL, your signature is brilliant Loki =D

[Expat]

I have observed closely two IEE-LSI relationships.

The first one concerns a LSI guy and an IEE woman. They are of almost exactly the same age, and they have been working in the same place (an university lab) for decades. To outside observers, they seem like good friends, and often do things like joint birthday parties and the like. The IEE likes him and often jokes with him, and he likes it.

However, although he likes her, he is sort of bewildered by her. Her husband left her and they were having a very difficult divorce. Talking about it with him, the LSI said, "well to tell you the truth I'd also have divorced her. She'd drive anyone crazy. She keeps forgetting appointments, she keeps forgetting where she puts things, and she's full of crazy ideas like buying 'green coffee' or refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like. I keep wondering if anyone can actually be like that, or if not some kind of mask she wears for whatever reason".

The second story concerns a place I worked at. The plant manager was a LSI guy, and the main salesman, an IEE guy. The IEE kept coming with new ideas which were shot down by the LSI as impractical. IMO each of them was right in about 50% of the cases. The LSI seemed to see the IEE as slightly nuts but respected his drive and skills as a salesman; the IEE was sort of terrified of the LSI even as finding him uncooperative and pessimistic.