LSI-IEE Conflict Relations (ISTj and ENFp)

[Ms. Kensington]

yeah i agree, you see the relations when you're forced to be closer or try to be closer. its so strange.

[Elf]

As for Ti, maybe I should just avoid logical arguments and objectivity and try not to be so unbending about rules. I do both with him actually, but being aware of why should make it easier.

I think he would appreciate receiving more information and facts (ENFps like listening to longer "stories" more that short phrases). ISTjs usually talk about their conclusions and views without explaining how they came to them and for ENFps this can be confusing and frustrating.

[meatburger]

As for Ti, maybe I should just avoid logical arguments and objectivity and try not to be so unbending about rules. I do both with him actually, but being aware of why should make it easier.

I think he would appreciate receiving more information and facts (ENFps like listening to longer "stories" more that short phrases). ISTjs usually talk about their conclusions and views without explaining how they came to them and for ENFps this can be confusing and frustrating.

Yeah but i wonder how much little tricks are going to help things? PotatoSpirit cant really force himself to tell a "long story" to an ENFp and modify the way he tells the story. It would be a bit unfair on him and very draining. I think my common advice is to be yourself but you can see how that advice doesn't work here.

In my years of dealing with my ISTj dad i have learnt some definate tricks to minimize conflict. I know that i shouldn't turn the light on when hes sleeping on the couch. I know that i shouldn't drop any glasses in the sink or he will get annoyed. I know that when he asks me to do a task i should always say yes without question(thats my best chance of bonding with him). Ive learnt that i shouldn't go into the kitchen too many times or he thinks im pigging out. I know i should eat my dinner slowly and not too fast. I shouldn't drop any dinner off my fork. I have to remember to check the oil in my car or he will get very angry about that. Oh and finally i need to remain contained and unemotional when he gets to me (all the time) or it just makes it worse. We have had full blown shouting matches countless times.

They are all superficial but thats as good as it gets. I dont want to make him seem like an asshole, i do love and respect him a lot. Its just we are conflictors. With these tricks and many others i have minimised confict but i still need to explain that it has made us amicable, not really friends. My dad unfortunately has always seen me as a flawed human being as im the polar opposite to him. He seems to think he needs to fix me. Of course as his conflictor i can also see all of his faults perfectly.

One last thing i do want to say is that for the last week my dad and i have been pretty cool. I dont know what it is but he seems quite cheerful and relaxed. I think its hard on him as my mum and i are both Fi based so he gets all grumpy without Fe.

[PotatoSpirit]

Awesome, I can work with this.

I think he would appreciate receiving more information and facts (ENFps like listening to longer "stories" more that short phrases). ISTjs usually talk about their conclusions and views without explaining how they came to them and for ENFps this can be confusing and frustrating.

Very nice, I always do that... I don't really think everything with words, so it takes additional effort to explain the reasoning. People are sometimes puzzled but I didn't realize it could bother a Ti PolR.

It would be a bit unfair on him and very draining.

Heh, whatcha gonna do... life is unfair. But don't worry, I can take it (c:
I think in general it would be pretty useful to be able to give people what they need. And it's not like I have to marry the guy, I see him as much as any other friend...

In my years of dealing with my ISTj dad i have learnt some definate tricks to minimize conflict

Ok those seem like some pretty petty rules to uphold, I think mine aren't as annoying. But something like that does happen, so this is helpful (c:

I dont know what it is but he seems quite cheerful and relaxed.

So you appreciate that? I understand relaxed and I guess everybody prefers cheerful (except istp?). What else, if anything, does he do that you like? (c:

[Elf]

Yeah but i wonder how much little tricks are going to help things? PotatoSpirit cant really force himself to tell a "long story" to an ENFp and modify the way he tells the story. It would be a bit unfair on him and very draining. I think my common advice is to be yourself but you can see how that advice doesn't work here.

As far as I understand PotatoSpirit's intentions, he wants to improve his relation and for some reason feels the need to do that. Maybe these "little tricks" won't help much, but I think it's worth to try (in a conflicting relationship you can't be yourself anyway). But in the end it's his decision whether he does that or not. If he wasn't asking for advide I wouldn't have said that. I also think that every conflicting relationship is different, a friendship between conflicting partners works different, that the one within the family. From what you're saying it seems that between parents and their chidren it can be particulary tough, because of the need "to fix" the kid.

[Elf]

I don't really think everything with words, so it takes additional effort to explain the reasoning.

Aha, so that's the reason why the ISTj I know sometimes has difficulties to find the right words. It makes things more clear.

I think in general it would be pretty useful to be able to give people what they need.

I agree on this.

[meatburger]

Yeah, you will have to excuse me as im quite skeptical about confictor relations. Im happy that you would try to work on it though, perhaps there is a subtype compatibility that would make it easier?

Ok those seem like some pretty petty rules to uphold, I think mine aren't as annoying. But something like that does happen, so this is helpful (c:

Yeah. They are not all rules per say they are just the unspoken things that make him annoyed that i try to avoid. For example with the food falling off my fork thats a perfect example of something that annoys him all the time. If that happens he will stop eating and glare at me. This is the nature of our conflict. If he did that to other types they wouldn't take it in the same way that i do. An ESTp would probally ignore it or not notice or laugh or something. When he does that to me if our relationships is already a little on the rocks Fury will build inside me. I will think "why does he care about my eating etc, he has so many bad habits himself that i dont mind" etc.

So you appreciate that? I understand relaxed and I guess everybody prefers cheerful (except istp?). What else, if anything, does he do that you like? (c:

Its just that really. I do have a good deal of respect for him. When hes just calm and doesn't judge me and talks to me normally everything seems fine.

The nature of our conflict seems to be:

I annoy him with my actions. He cant seem to stand watching me do anything physical, cooking, changing a spare tire etc. He will always tell me how im doing it wrong. I think ISTx are like that with a lot of people though they do see the impractical nature of things people do and it frustrates them. I just seem to take offense to it a lot. There is a difference between the way an ISTP and the ISTj tell me but im not sure how you could actually simulate that. He also seems to get frustrated by some of the things i say aswell. For example i might start a comment saying "oh my god XXX was being such a dick head today" and he will say "stop swearing you dont need to do that it doesn't make you a bigger man". So i just clam up thats the end of the conversation. I will be thinking in my head "wow thats funny because i heard you say the word fuck about 10 times on the phone yesterday to your ESTp friend".

That was a bit of a speil i hope it helps a little lol

As far as I understand PotatoSpirit's intentions, he wants to improve his relation and for some reason feels the need to do that. Maybe these "little tricks" won't help much, but I think it's worth to try (in a conflicting relationship you can't be yourself anyway). But in the end it's his decision whether he does that or not. If he wasn't asking for advide I wouldn't have said that. I also think that every conflicting relationship is different, a friendship between conflicting partners works different, that the one within the family. From what you're saying it seems that between parents and their chidren it can be particulary tough, because of the need "to fix" the kid.

Yeah i hear what your saying. Remember i am an Fi type so i understand relationships and what does and doesn't work very well. The idea of a conflictor saddens me greatly i wish i had no conflictors. Conflictors definately dont have to actually HATE each other. Ive been living with my dad and we survive fine.

Its just my intuition telling me that PotatoSpirit will look back on this in 5 years time and think, yeah this really isn't working.

[PotatoSpirit]

Aha, so that's the reason why the ISTj I know sometimes has difficulties to find the right words. It makes things clearer.

There is probably more to it. A lack of interest in being understood immediatly, and lots of interest in getting people to do things immediatly? Tendency to consider my kind of reasoning clear and obvious?

I think ISTx are like that with a lot of people though they do see the impractical nature of things people do and it frustrates them. I just seem to take offense to it a lot. There is a difference between the way an ISTP and the ISTj tell me but im not sure how you could actually simulate that.

This could be the key. Maybe the problem is his certainty that you are wrong? The lack of explanation, like elf suggested?

That was a bit of a speil i hope it helps a little lol

It does!

PS: where can I buy some Fi?

[meatburger]

PS: where can I buy some Fi?

Seems to me like you already have more of it than most ISTj's i know

[Elf]

Aha, so that's the reason why the ISTj I know sometimes has difficulties to find the right words. It makes things clearer.

There is probably more to it. A lack of interest in being understood immediatly, and lots of interest in getting people to do things immediatly? Tendency to consider my kind of reasoning clear and obvious?

The complex reasoning really stands in contrast with the modest and the a bit sluggish behavior. I usually understand their intentions, feelings, but almost never seem to know what they are thinking.

PS: where can I buy some Fi?

Seems to me like you already have more of it than most ISTj's i know

I know one ISTj woman whose Fi doesn't seem weak at all. She actually possesses more insight than anybody else I have met.

[meatburger]

I know one ISTj woman whose Fi doesn't seem weak at all. She actually possesses more insight than anybody else I have met.

Yeah thats possible. Role functions aren't totally useless functions, in fact i tend to see them as the strongest of the weakest functions. Others tend to disagree though.

[Park]

PotatoSpirit, your avatar is totally SLI. (sorry for going off topic here)

[meatburger]

PotatoSpirit, your avatar is totally SLI. (sorry for going off topic here)

That would be funny if he was an SLI(ISTp) rather than an LSI(ISTj). Then it would be a totally different kettle of fish and i could give lots of useful advice

To be honest all along ive been wondering whether he was an ISTj. I just cant see them wanting to make an effort like this but i wont pretend like i really understand them totally.

[PotatoSpirit]

PotatoSpirit, your avatar is totally SLI. (sorry for going off topic here)

Ahahahaha and I love it too (c:
I would have to start everything over though, so I'm gonna remain LSI.

[meatburger]

PotatoSpirit, your avatar is totally SLI. (sorry for going off topic here)

Ahahahaha and I love it too (c:
I would have to start everything over though, so I'm gonna remain LSI.

Lol worst logic ever

[FDG]

To be honest all along ive been wondering whether he was an ISTj. I just cant see them wanting to make an effort like this but i wont pretend like i really understand them totally.

I think the fact that he registered on such a messageboard is indicative of his willingness, don't you?

[meatburger]

To be honest all along ive been wondering whether he was an ISTj. I just cant see them wanting to make an effort like this but i wont pretend like i really understand them totally.

I think the fact that he registered on such a messageboard is indicative of his willingness, don't you?

yeah thats my point. There are some types that dont seem that interested in personality theories. ESFp's, ESTj's and i kind of had ISTj's in that basket aswell. My dad would tell me its all bullshit. He hates anything theoretical like this. But yeah everyone is different and there does seem to be some ISTj's here so im probablly just wrong

[Gilly]

To be honest all along ive been wondering whether he was an ISTj. I just cant see them wanting to make an effort like this but i wont pretend like i really understand them totally.

What, trying to get along with someone?

[meatburger]

To be honest all along ive been wondering whether he was an ISTj. I just cant see them wanting to make an effort like this but i wont pretend like i really understand them totally.

What, trying to get along with someone?

Oh no of course they want / try to get along with people but i meant actually think about it on this level. My dad doesn't think about what people are like or how he can change, he simply likes someone or he doesn't. Perhaps i will have to re-jig my perception of how they work.

[Park]

My dad doesn't think about what people are like or how he can change, he simply likes someone or he doesn't.

And so do I. (Seriously, I 'm like that too.)

[meatburger]

My dad doesn't think about what people are like or how he can change, he simply likes someone or he doesn't.

And so do I. (Seriously, I 'm like that too.)

All my ISTp friends are like that

[Park]

Lol worst logic ever

If any...

[Park]

My dad doesn't think about what people are like or how he can change, he simply likes someone or he doesn't.

And so do I. (Seriously, I 'm like that too.)

All my ISTp friends are like that

The only reason I hate that about my self is because of my ENFj mother.

[meatburger]

The only reason I hate that about my self is because of my ENFj mother.

Yeah i quite like it about ISTp's. They can have a "well im me so like me or dont like me" mentality. So you have a conflictor parent aswell? Have you learnt any handy tips?

[PotatoSpirit]

Oh no of course they want / try to get along with people but i meant actually think about it on this level. My dad doesn't think about what people are like or how he can change, he simply likes someone or he doesn't. Perhaps i will have to re-jig my perception of how they work.

I am pretty much like that, but once you know there are types out there you can't just ignore the notion.

[shakealittle]

I'm an ISTJ and I have a strong relationship with an ENFP. By strong I mean we respect one another, appreciate one another and make time to be together. In fact, outsiders could be mistaken for thinking we are best friends. I think we have the same underlying family values and interests. Conversation usually stems from those things but lacks any emotional depth.

As an ISTJ, I'm constantly censoring myself and questioning where she is coming from. When I'm with her, I really feel like I need to hold back on my negativity. I find ISTJs to be humourous at times, so maybe tap into that. I also find us to be quite aware of our negatives, so that self-depreciating humour may be the way to go. She likes stories about my stupidity but more often than not, she's talking about herself so I get very proactive by asking questions. But in all honesty, I feel like I'm just playing along with her stories, which really is a strain sometimes as I lack any form of imagination.

For instance, she will like a celebrity and from something as little as a quote or picture, she thinks she's figured out his personality! I think she prefers to let her feelings guide her 'reality' over any sense of rationality (or, rather, what I perceive to be logical). I think she gets upset/doesn't appreciate when I point out things which contradict her perceived reality so I don't do it anymore.

Hope this helps =)

[meatburger]

Cool!

Well my dad and i have been ok lately *touch wood*. He seems very caring at the moment so this relation is not totally terrible

[Kristiina]

I'm an ISTJ and I have a strong relationship with an ENFP. By strong I mean we respect one another, appreciate one another and make time to be together. In fact, outsiders could be mistaken for thinking we are best friends. I think we have the same underlying family values and interests. Conversation usually stems from those things but lacks any emotional depth.

As an ISTJ, I'm constantly censoring myself and questioning where she is coming from. When I'm with her, I really feel like I need to hold back on my negativity. I find ISTJs to be humourous at times, so maybe tap into that. I also find us to be quite aware of our negatives, so that self-depreciating humour may be the way to go. She likes stories about my stupidity but more often than not, she's talking about herself so I get very proactive by asking questions. But in all honesty, I feel like I'm just playing along with her stories, which really is a strain sometimes as I lack any form of imagination.

For instance, she will like a celebrity and from something as little as a quote or picture, she thinks she's figured out his personality! I think she prefers to let her feelings guide her 'reality' over any sense of rationality (or, rather, what I perceive to be logical). I think she gets upset/doesn't appreciate when I point out things which contradict her perceived reality so I don't do it anymore.

Hope this helps =)

I'm sorry for reviving this after a week, but I was reading all posts by shakealittle. In the ISTj appreciation thread I said your post sounded very ENFj. I read this and I was thinking of my relationships with ENFps. It's is definitely similar enough to conclude that you're most probably describing the relationship between ENFj and ENFp. You see her personality as a full image (she's the impulsive girl, who has fun active ideas, etc) and when she tries to understand herself, you give her the ENFj response - you describe the full image that you see. She is sometimes put off by it, saying that she's not so easily described. She's an individual. Sometimes she gets funny ideas. She reads one quote and starts thinking she's a very deep and calm person. Of course you say, "Well... I'd say you're more the impulsive kind of person" and she's irritated by it.

Even years in a close relationship with her hasn't improved your understanding of her much. She's somehow quite similar to you, but she mysteriously gets upset at the silliest things. You forgive her the flimsy nature and unexpected ideas, but every now and then it feels like she just doesn't appreciate you.

The main problem is that you expect her to be structured (with Ti program function), but she's all "fun" and unexpected. And she expects you to go along with her ideas, but you just want to make her slow down and think things through. And you don't lack imagination, I suspect. You just don't have the impulsive reactivity of Ne dominants.

[Slacker]

I've been really looking forward to volunteering at my daughter's school. I got a call that the librarian really needed help, so I said GREAT I'd be glad to help in the library. I went in to get trained and guess what? Yep, the librarian is an ISTj.

So what about ENFps annoys you the most? Are there any characteristics I can maybe try to hold back on a bit while I'm working with her? Any advice for how to get along with her better than I usually get along with ISTjs? Things have not been pretty in the past. But of course I didn't know about Socionics then. Perhaps knowledge will be power.

[mustachio]

quit while you're ahead. hell, they even bother me when they're my boss.

[Jarno]

Remember the relation of your clubs NF and ST are rated as Hospitality.

Meaning friendly towards eachother. This makes for the relationship to have a mutual attraction in the beginning...

The conflicts start later. But as I've read in a socionics description, the only way both partners can live peacefully together is when a certain politness approach is maintained.

I work with a conflictor, it surely isn't all conflicts and it can even be fun sometimes, just don't become to close.

[Jarno]

Oh and for the ISTJ in particular.

They usually apply the rule book very strict. Very annoying...

[Rocky]

How can you be so sure of the librarians type?

Either way, if you're just normal and polite I don't see how any type would have conflicts with that on a nonpersonal level.

[leckysupport]

Don't think you're not going to get on with them because their your conflictor and you probably won't. But you will because you're like that, so your fucked.

[Slacker]

Rocky - I interacted with her one-on-one for 2 hours. I can't claim to always be able to tell after that level of interaction, but I can generally get at least a ballpark idea of someone's type, and in this case I'm pretty sure she's ISTj. Anyway, we got along reasonably well the other day when I did the training, and I think it'll be at least OK, but I don't want to rub her the wrong way if there's something obvious I could hold back on. I have twice worked closely with ISTjs. Once we just didn't get along that great but it wasn't a big deal. The other ISTj and I had a really terrible time of it. I wish I would have known then what I know now - I do think it would have helped.

Electric - thanks for the help.

[Enters Laughing]

Try not to talk in a speculative manner and don't make tentative statements, possibly . Don't start an argument with them, otherwise things will really kick off...agree with them over 'small' things, and don't try to change their system - at least ask their opinion before implementing such a change first :wink:.

[leckysupport]

Electric - thanks for the help.

NP.

If you start thinking about it before how your supposed to react without focusing on the person yourself, you're then acting on preconceptions based on the theory and not the person. And you don't really know what the person is like until you interact with them.

Basically just react off of them.

[betterthandead]

yomama

[PotatoSpirit]

Hard to explain.
Whenever you say you'll do something, do it. Or tell her as soon as possible. If you are not sure you can do it, tell her you are not sure. She'll have all her plans laid out in her mind, and they will include your work... if you do it wrong or late, you'll screw her plans and she'll be bothered. If you can't live up to your word, even if you had the best possible reasons, make an effort to look ashamed and sorry. She doesn't care if it's not your fault (c:

Or you can take the easy way and force yourself to give her Fe... she'll forgive many things for Fe.

[Slacker]

Thank you! that's useful. I was very careful to be on time the other day. She mentioned my promptness. She also gave me a list of other volunteers I can call if I can't come one a day I'm expected for some reason. She said sometimes volunteers just don't show up and then she'll have a class in and she'll have trouble getting everything done properly.

She has all these little ways she wants things done, and I'm afraid I'll forget her specific ways of doing everything. She does have little flow charts and lists and charts and things printed out and in folders, but I have to remember which things have little flow charts and what-not so I remember to look for them. And where. Everything is so specific. I'm mainly afraid I'll forget to follow her specific procedure for something. It is all *very* specific. But I will try as hard as I can. And I will express deep regret if I forget anything.