Integral Types of Countries/Nations

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think modern India is LIE.

Cyclops, you are fully correct, but I don't find any assertions made here absolute. At least, I don't interpret them as such.

Oh you're right, I just recall reading some posts like "as far as I remember such and such a country is X type", like it's somehow for definite.

And of course, for instance saying UK and France don't get on because of these supposed integral types of nations (when they can't be decided) and when reality is that it is only the England part of UK has problem with France for completely different reason, is just kinda.... on more than just one level.

And no offence to jxrtes, but

Sweden is more logical and has had waaay more success in establishing a physical infrastructure that can ensure those things, whereas Canada is mostly known for its humanitarian record and ethical innovations -- like proposing UN peacekeeping forces (see: Suez Crisis).

What does that mean, typing an entire nation over some tiny piece of information?

Eh, either people are way too into this or simply overconfident, I dunno.

Oh, of course:

The UK is not really Si valuing, stereotypically that is. I'd say LIE is more fitting; they have rather conflicting values with France which explains a lot history wise I suppose...

Bizarrely, i've also read it a few places that the typical Brit is ISTp, so, I dunno, stuff like that pretty close to absolute to me, and doesn't even make sense.

But, it is point, am I right in saying that according to socionists the Brit is the typical ISTp but also the ENTj?

Meh, I kinda feel i'm stating obvious stuff, and prolly shouldn't have posted, no need for me to be a kill joy, I suppose.

[FDG]

I personally find the UK's atmosphere stifling, although since the manifestation of type is modulated by geno and feno-type I suppose it can't be easily chalked up to non-LIE-ness of Britain.

[mu4]

I think clubs and inter-club dialectic tend to dominate a lot of political discourse. This is because clubs occupy similar behavioral aspects of personality. ST/NF/SF/NT differences often form divisions of roles within society. Caste system and class systems develop out of these differentiations.

Take China and it's Confucian class development. Peasantry SF, Soldier ST, Scholar NF, Merchant NT

It's was actually quite a interesting arrangement, aristocratic and totalitarian control of the peasantry thru force and indoctrination and then scapegoating of the entrepreneurial class for all the ills which were rooted in landlord class and political class.

Confucian culture is fundamentally aristocratic and this has influences far beyond just China in places like Japan and Korea.

Take a country like Japan which has both Beta/Delta phases in it's history. During WWII, it was in a Beta phase, while now it is in a Delta trend. But nevertheless the language which they use which contain many honorifics is highly aristocratic.

Conversely countries like the US which I view as in a dialectic between Alpha and Gamma values are more egalitarian.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Remember that xenophobia is both Beta and Delta. Nationalism the same, except that Beta type is based on pride and inherited values (tendency to advertise), while Delta is based on comfort and habit (tendency for secrecy).

Let's see, what else do I remember... Britain's faithful adherence to traditions that have long lost their practical value Bukalov sees as an expression of suggestive Fi. I wonder how well this reasoning applies to other cultures.

Yeah, I think that this can easily be both Beta or Delta.

Unless I can know specifically what he (Bukalov) is referring to. All I can think of is royal family, which although can be argued serves a purpose, in short, ****** did not refer to Queen Elizabeth as "the most dangerous woman in Europe" for nothing.... However i'd say royal family traditions and pomp could be equated with Se pride status and advertised values. So I don't know.

I wonder if Bukalov was referring to royal family, or some other things, perhaps he's even projecting his own socio-political values onto an information element.

[olduser]

in the US-
Delta States:
Colorado
Washington
Oregon
Vermont

I can't think of other quadra states, but these tend to stick out as attracting a lot of 'granola delta' types in general(think user rick).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Krig the Viking]

I've long thought that Canada is EII. Our national image is of "the nice, polite guy". It also makes sense that our current Conservative government is LxE. Furthermore, our clashes with American culture generally centre around our dislike of aggressive American Se.

[Creepy-male]

Take China and it's Confucian class development. Peasantry SF, Soldier ST, Scholar NF, Merchant NT

Interesting

more or less american culture seems like

SF = Artist/Entertainer/People-Oriented Worker
ST = Skill Labor/Worker/Salesman/Tradesman
NF = Humanitarian
NT = Business Leader/ CEO

The closest thing we have to peasantry would be ST, they are usually working class people, but ocassionally you have highly skilled STs like pilots etc, but most often STs will be construction workers, electricians, etc... working class, the closest thing to peasantry, which in china is SF. Merchants would also be in the ST category, as would soldiers.

Our SFs don't carry such a view of being peasants, they are like teachers, stay at home moms, artists, entertainers, sometimes politicians, but for coherency to the artists and entertainers I'll say "Celebrities". They are typically on the same level as STs but it doesn't have that american working class ethos feeling to it, probably because the post-industrial revolution economy benefits more from ST labor than SF. You can say customer service is SF but in america I think its more ST, perhaps ESTp, its all about tactful political correctness in dealing with customers.

the other observation is most of our leaders have to have an element of NT, where as in china they were merchant class.

I am convinced america doesn't have a niche in society for scholars though, its not a very emphasised archtype in american culture imho.

[mu4]

Interesting

more or less american culture seems like

SF = Artist/Entertainer/People-Oriented Worker
ST = Skill Labor/Worker/Salesman/Tradesman
NF = Humanitarian
NT = Business Leader/ CEO

I had put down what I thought was the American castes but it's not so strict here in the US.

It's something like this but
SF = Service
ST = Military Industrial Complex
NF = Entertainment and Religion
NT = Innovation and Business

I see it this way.
The dominant dialectic always marginalizes the other groups politically. In the US, the citizen controlled volunteer army and separation of church and state are examples of the political marginalization of the NF/ST clubs.

In China, this was entirely different as the ST and NF Soldiers and Scholars entirely dominated political discourse. Merchants were a marginalized class, in fact the lowest class in Confucian philosophy. NT's are a heretical bunch and thus sort of fit into this heretical area of influence in China. Heresy and innovation are fundamentally similar course of action and are anti-orthodoxy.

In the US, much of the laws and system of checks and balances were placed in order to prevent a situation where stagnation occurs which is what typically happens when theology, "humanitarian" and soldiers take over. For a long time continental Europe and much of the world was controlled by such a group of people and the heretics decided to travel to the US or Britain.

I need to be very clear on Scholar class because American ideas of scholastics aren't the same as Confucian ideas.

Confucian ideals of scholastics revers literature, painting, calligraphy, chess. These are ethical valuations, not logical ones. Much of the egalitarian philosophies in China were dispense with by the First Emperor who is some sort of Beta ST, who himself was deposed by the Confucian Han Emperors who were likely Delta.

Philosophies like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi and Taoist thought were largely suppressed or at the very least politically marginalized.

Scholastics for the sake of scholastics is not really a NT thing, they are called researchers but this is merely what they do not what their purpose is. The purpose is always do something concrete. This is because they all have strong Te.

American Scholastics isn't the same as say religious scholastics or Confucian scholastics, it's geared towards business, science but allow for many other studies to take place in case they prove fruitful. It's actually something that is protected nominally in the US where as other societies in the past have been very antagonistic to this sort of thing and would much rather discuss how many angels on the head of a pin and such religious subjects. Suppression in the name of blasphemy and heresy is a common course of action of NF's because they have influence over the ST club. If there is one thing that NF "humanitarians" are good at it's that they are good at indoctrinating others and being indoctrinated. This is because their weak logic and good social skills allow them to be influenced by all sort of mental deceptions as well as dispense them. Their strong intuition grants them a good sense of imagination but also make them prone to fantasy. NT's are different, they use logic to experiment on their intuitions and test them against reality. This is why they're always focused on concrete real changes rather then some abstract preference or comforting delusion. They might seem idealistic and you may not understand them, but that is not their aim, rather their aim is something much more concrete, otherwise, what's the point.

SF's are service oriented people, they have a need and ability to deal with people day to day and do something.

Why is entertainment sometimes more NF then SF, it is because much of the time it's not something that is a day to day thing, sometimes it is but often it's a creative thing where a NF can compress their thoughts and put out a show.

The idea of Scholastic culture or tradition is actually pretty lame, because the purpose of much NT research is to dispense with much of culture and tradition entirely, especially when they conflict with "progress".

Ideas about business is a fundamentally NT sort of thing. The basic relationship of business employment is material benefit for work.

ST is sadly forced labor. This is what largely happened in the Soviet bloc and somewhat in China during their recent revolutions.
NF often have the idea of work for salvation, which also leads in a way to slave labor.

Of course ST/NF get into business too, but they often have a wage structure that has large discrepancies between the highest inner group vs the lowest service people.

Gamma business are typically very good places to work as long as you provide something of value in your actions. The wages are fair and typically something above market value.

[ArchonAlarion]

That's interesting, Hkkmr.

[Creepy-male]

It's something like this but
SF = Service
ST = Military Industrial Complex
NF = Entertainment and Religion
NT = Innovation and Business

I think thats fairly accurate also, its hard to fit all aspects of american culture into clubs, but this seems like a reasonable treatment.

In particular I find it interesting the role of NTs in our culture vs ancient china. NTs in china were a low and heretical class, while in the US the spirit of NTs in business and politics is the foundation of leadership. Of course not all leaders in the US are NTs but the spirit of leadership in the US is very based in NTs, bush for example was not NT and was criticized horribly for his lack of speaking and NT intellect. Also the founding fathers of america were very much in a sort of NT tradition/spirit.

I need to be very clear on Scholar class because American ideas of scholastics aren't the same as Confucian ideas.

I understood that at some level, asian culture and western culture aren't the same things.

At any rate, speaking beyond classes and more into archtypes, the scholar archetype I picture as being introspective, contemplative, disciplined, minimalist, and hoardes knowledge/books.

In the Medevial period of europian history, the scholar archetype largely existed in monistarys. While the prevalant attitude towards christianity in the medevial period is that it was oppresive towards knowledge, it was scholars who actually did many translations on old greek/roman texts (even though it was forbidden by the power structure). The reason the monks got away with it, is because kings really didn't care what monks were doing with their obscure languages and books, they just didn't want the commoners getting their hands on those ideas, so it was ignored and perhaps tolerated so long as it stayed in a seclusive element of society that was away from the peasants. Scholars that were monks did play a small role in social revolution against the church. The most obvious ideas are in germany you had the invention of the printing press by a german monk, allowing the printing of translated bibles in mass so the commoners could read the scripture (and interpret it themselves rather than through a priest). You also have martin luther, which spoke out against current social practices in the church and spurred the reformation. Ideas also circulated into science from monks; mendelive and genetics, and even the idea of a sun centered universe was discovered by a member of the church. Of course with the sun centered universe the discover was politically correct and published his ideas only in latin so the religious upper classes could only read, but it was galelio who took the idea and published in out of latin and suffered at the hands of the church. Kepler (also instrumental in early astronomy) grew up in a jesuit school and became a teacher in a religious institution (he didn't like it much though). In general scholars existed in medevial society but the power structure made sure there ideas were isolated from the masses and made sure they were part of some kind of religious structure, instilling a level of control over these types. It was the combination of kings and priests that made the medevial power structure oppresive to the masses, kings controlled the material side of things, priests controlled the ideology, and everyone else suffered if they disobeyed, since refusing to accept an ideology meant the priests tipping it off to the kings and the kings using their material control over property and armies to enact punishment. It wasn't until this marriage between kings and religion began to destablize that europian society moved forward.

I think the scholar in america isn't neccisary non-existant, but its any idea that is largely frowned on and ignored as boring and unproductive. Higher education in modern america produces these types of professional business/industrial analyists who are expected to have a firm expertise in sciences in order to assist industries with analyzing problems. Something like reading and contemplation is largely frowned down upon in modern american society as unproductive, bum-ish, nerdy, bland, and boring.

[mu4]

I think thats fairly accurate also, its hard to fit all aspects of american culture into clubs, but this seems like a reasonable treatment.

In particular I find it interesting the role of NTs in our culture vs ancient china. NTs in china were a low and heretical class, while in the US the spirit of NTs in business and politics is the foundation of leadership. Of course not all leaders in the US are NTs but the spirit of leadership in the US is very based in NTs, bush for example was not NT and was criticized horribly for his lack of speaking and NT intellect. Also the founding fathers of america were very much in a sort of NT tradition/spirit.

It's the difference between aristocratic society and egalitarian society.

It's a common occurrence in aristocratic society to promote moral superiority of the weak but in practice exploit and degrade them for the benefit of a small few.

The peasant class is nominally the most esteemed class in Confucian philosophy but they were likely the most marginalized group.

Philosophically this has been discussed by people like Nietzsche.
Master/Slave morality and ressentiment

Literature wise by people like Orwell
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

As much I criticize this form of thinking and delusion, it likely provides a evolutionary and neccessary role in the cohesion of cultures and groups for purpose of protection and aggression against other hostile groups.

[Creepy-male]

It's the difference between aristocratic society and egalitarian society.

It's a common occurrence in aristocratic society to promote moral superiority of the weak but in practice exploit and degrade them for the benefit of a small few.

The peasant class is nominally the most esteemed class in Confucian philosophy but they were likely the most marginalized group.

Philosophically this has been discussed by people like Nietzsche.
Master/Slave morality and ressentiment

Literature wise by people like Orwell
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

As much I criticize this form of thinking and delusion, it likely provides a evolutionary and neccessary role in the cohesion of cultures and groups for purpose of protection and aggression against other hostile groups.

You could also look at the promotion of the moral superiority of the lower classes as an expression of guilt from the upper classes for exploiting them. Especially since promoting moral superiority of the lower classes gives them some consolidation, but still allows the upper class to hold onto their power. Something like say, relenquishing your power as a way of expressing guilt towards those you exploit, would on the other hand result in you being dethroned, but ultimately prove more useful in promoting justice.

[vesstheastralsilky]

I had put down what I thought was the American castes but it's not so strict here in the US.

It's something like this but
SF = Service
ST = Military Industrial Complex
NF = Entertainment and Religion
NT = Innovation and Business

I see it this way.
The dominant dialectic always marginalizes the other groups politically. In the US, the citizen controlled volunteer army and separation of church and state are examples of the political marginalization of the NF/ST clubs.

In China, this was entirely different as the ST and NF Soldiers and Scholars entirely dominated political discourse. Merchants were a marginalized class, in fact the lowest class in Confucian philosophy. NT's are a heretical bunch and thus sort of fit into this heretical area of influence in China. Heresy and innovation are fundamentally similar course of action and are anti-orthodoxy.

In the US, much of the laws and system of checks and balances were placed in order to prevent a situation where stagnation occurs which is what typically happens when theology, "humanitarian" and soldiers take over. For a long time continental Europe and much of the world was controlled by such a group of people and the heretics decided to travel to the US or Britain.

I need to be very clear on Scholar class because American ideas of scholastics aren't the same as Confucian ideas.

Confucian ideals of scholastics revers literature, painting, calligraphy, chess. These are ethical valuations, not logical ones. Much of the egalitarian philosophies in China were dispense with by the First Emperor who is some sort of Beta ST, who himself was deposed by the Confucian Han Emperors who were likely Delta.

Philosophies like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi and Taoist thought were largely suppressed or at the very least politically marginalized.

Scholastics for the sake of scholastics is not really a NT thing, they are called researchers but this is merely what they do not what their purpose is. The purpose is always do something concrete. This is because they all have strong Te.

American Scholastics isn't the same as say religious scholastics or Confucian scholastics, it's geared towards business, science but allow for many other studies to take place in case they prove fruitful. It's actually something that is protected nominally in the US where as other societies in the past have been very antagonistic to this sort of thing and would much rather discuss how many angels on the head of a pin and such religious subjects. Suppression in the name of blasphemy and heresy is a common course of action of NF's because they have influence over the ST club. If there is one thing that NF "humanitarians" are good at it's that they are good at indoctrinating others and being indoctrinated. This is because their weak logic and good social skills allow them to be influenced by all sort of mental deceptions as well as dispense them. Their strong intuition grants them a good sense of imagination but also make them prone to fantasy. NT's are different, they use logic to experiment on their intuitions and test them against reality. This is why they're always focused on concrete real changes rather then some abstract preference or comforting delusion. They might seem idealistic and you may not understand them, but that is not their aim, rather their aim is something much more concrete, otherwise, what's the point.

SF's are service oriented people, they have a need and ability to deal with people day to day and do something.

Why is entertainment sometimes more NF then SF, it is because much of the time it's not something that is a day to day thing, sometimes it is but often it's a creative thing where a NF can compress their thoughts and put out a show.

The idea of Scholastic culture or tradition is actually pretty lame, because the purpose of much NT research is to dispense with much of culture and tradition entirely, especially when they conflict with "progress".

Ideas about business is a fundamentally NT sort of thing. The basic relationship of business employment is material benefit for work.

ST is sadly forced labor. This is what largely happened in the Soviet bloc and somewhat in China during their recent revolutions.
NF often have the idea of work for salvation, which also leads in a way to slave labor.

Of course ST/NF get into business too, but they often have a wage structure that has large discrepancies between the highest inner group vs the lowest service people.

Gamma business are typically very good places to work as long as you provide something of value in your actions. The wages are fair and typically something above market value.

The SF caste COULD also be the Arts if only it were valued here. We have too many "starving artists" or unhappy artists trying to fit into gamma molds.

[ragnar]

I am convinced america doesn't have a niche in society for scholars though, its not a very emphasised archtype in american culture imho.

My impression as well. AFAICT, appreciation of scholarly pursuits is hard to come by outside the MIT-Harvard area, the Stanford campus and a few other isolated refuges for scholars.

[xerx]

And no offence to jxrtes, but

What does that mean, typing an entire nation over some tiny piece of information?

Eh, either people are way too into this or simply overconfident, I dunno.

That's ok, you're right. I don't think it's possible to really type whole societies. I'm only typing based on the image that many Canadians (especially politicians and the upper and middle classes) likes to project, which probably has an effect on locking the theme of the country anyway. This image is foremost about being respectful towards different cultural values and suspicion of military adventurism. If you lived here you'd understand, we get bombarded with sentiments in the media about Canadian values a million times a day.

An interesting phenomenon that's recently crept up. Although immigrants are cordially welcomed, many find it hard to work in their chosen profession because of major inefficiencies in the employment system. This is where a stronger focus on Te, from a dual, would come in handy.

The more sinister truth, however, is that Canada is very much a minor imperialist power in its own right. A recent example is Canada's involvement in Haiti in the ousting of president Jean-Bertrand Aristide, and his replacement by an unelected police state that carried out bloody political purges.