Integral Types of Countries/Nations

[Rick]

I remember from the german meetup that there was some consensus that russia is ILI.

I don't remember this. I think there's a pretty strong consensus that it's IEI.

But this is where things can get tricky, to use a nice ILI phrase

Socionists here (Ukraine & Russia) typically distinguish between the type of an ethnos and the type of a state, when there is a divergence. For instance, while Russia culturally is IEI, historically it has attracted a SLE style of governance. Bukalov (really, the biggest fan of integral types) is quick to note the ESI ethical system of the U.S. and says that the type of the CIA is ESI (hehe), and is poorly equipped to deal with unexpected information. But I think that's an application of socionics that oversteps the useful bounds of the field.

Let's see, what else do I remember... Britain's faithful adherence to traditions that have long lost their practical value Bukalov sees as an expression of suggestive Fi. I wonder how well this reasoning applies to other cultures.

Then Expat and I and others in Dusseldorf had a rather interesting discussion about cultural vs. institutional types and how an ethnos may belong to quadra X but be in an institutional phase of quadra Y. So, while it seems likely that Europe today is in a kind of Delta phase, does that mean that Europe as a whole IS delta? Probably, things were quite different during WWI or WWII. Nationalism has had a fruitful history in Europe, and it is probably not a Delta phenomenon.

Anyways, the issue of nation's types can easily grow quite complex.

[Creepy-male]

For instance, while Russia culturally is IEI, historically it has attracted a SLE style of governance.

Interestingly, admittedly I've always held a viewpoint that Russian culture was very SLE (although I am really no expert on Russian culture), but then again it seems like there is a lot of art from the Russian world (classical music comes to mind) that doesn't seem very SLE.

I'd be interested to hear why exactly people are saying Russian culture is IEI, also I'd be interested if the SLE style of governance refers to modern times, soviet times, pre-soviet times with tzars and so forth, or the whole line of Russian governance.

[The Greeter]

I think modern India is LIE.

Cyclops, you are fully correct, but I don't find any assertions made here absolute. At least, I don't interpret them as such.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think modern India is LIE.

Cyclops, you are fully correct, but I don't find any assertions made here absolute. At least, I don't interpret them as such.

Oh you're right, I just recall reading some posts like "as far as I remember such and such a country is X type", like it's somehow for definite.

And of course, for instance saying UK and France don't get on because of these supposed integral types of nations (when they can't be decided) and when reality is that it is only the England part of UK has problem with France for completely different reason, is just kinda.... on more than just one level.

And no offence to jxrtes, but

Sweden is more logical and has had waaay more success in establishing a physical infrastructure that can ensure those things, whereas Canada is mostly known for its humanitarian record and ethical innovations -- like proposing UN peacekeeping forces (see: Suez Crisis).

What does that mean, typing an entire nation over some tiny piece of information?

Eh, either people are way too into this or simply overconfident, I dunno.

Oh, of course:

The UK is not really Si valuing, stereotypically that is. I'd say LIE is more fitting; they have rather conflicting values with France which explains a lot history wise I suppose...

Bizarrely, i've also read it a few places that the typical Brit is ISTp, so, I dunno, stuff like that pretty close to absolute to me, and doesn't even make sense.

But, it is point, am I right in saying that according to socionists the Brit is the typical ISTp but also the ENTj?

Meh, I kinda feel i'm stating obvious stuff, and prolly shouldn't have posted, no need for me to be a kill joy, I suppose.

[FDG]

I personally find the UK's atmosphere stifling, although since the manifestation of type is modulated by geno and feno-type I suppose it can't be easily chalked up to non-LIE-ness of Britain.

[mu4]

I think clubs and inter-club dialectic tend to dominate a lot of political discourse. This is because clubs occupy similar behavioral aspects of personality. ST/NF/SF/NT differences often form divisions of roles within society. Caste system and class systems develop out of these differentiations.

Take China and it's Confucian class development. Peasantry SF, Soldier ST, Scholar NF, Merchant NT

It's was actually quite a interesting arrangement, aristocratic and totalitarian control of the peasantry thru force and indoctrination and then scapegoating of the entrepreneurial class for all the ills which were rooted in landlord class and political class.

Confucian culture is fundamentally aristocratic and this has influences far beyond just China in places like Japan and Korea.

Take a country like Japan which has both Beta/Delta phases in it's history. During WWII, it was in a Beta phase, while now it is in a Delta trend. But nevertheless the language which they use which contain many honorifics is highly aristocratic.

Conversely countries like the US which I view as in a dialectic between Alpha and Gamma values are more egalitarian.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Remember that xenophobia is both Beta and Delta. Nationalism the same, except that Beta type is based on pride and inherited values (tendency to advertise), while Delta is based on comfort and habit (tendency for secrecy).

Let's see, what else do I remember... Britain's faithful adherence to traditions that have long lost their practical value Bukalov sees as an expression of suggestive Fi. I wonder how well this reasoning applies to other cultures.

Yeah, I think that this can easily be both Beta or Delta.

Unless I can know specifically what he (Bukalov) is referring to. All I can think of is royal family, which although can be argued serves a purpose, in short, ****** did not refer to Queen Elizabeth as "the most dangerous woman in Europe" for nothing.... However i'd say royal family traditions and pomp could be equated with Se pride status and advertised values. So I don't know.

I wonder if Bukalov was referring to royal family, or some other things, perhaps he's even projecting his own socio-political values onto an information element.

[Creepy-male]

Take China and it's Confucian class development. Peasantry SF, Soldier ST, Scholar NF, Merchant NT

Interesting

more or less american culture seems like

SF = Artist/Entertainer/People-Oriented Worker
ST = Skill Labor/Worker/Salesman/Tradesman
NF = Humanitarian
NT = Business Leader/ CEO

The closest thing we have to peasantry would be ST, they are usually working class people, but ocassionally you have highly skilled STs like pilots etc, but most often STs will be construction workers, electricians, etc... working class, the closest thing to peasantry, which in china is SF. Merchants would also be in the ST category, as would soldiers.

Our SFs don't carry such a view of being peasants, they are like teachers, stay at home moms, artists, entertainers, sometimes politicians, but for coherency to the artists and entertainers I'll say "Celebrities". They are typically on the same level as STs but it doesn't have that american working class ethos feeling to it, probably because the post-industrial revolution economy benefits more from ST labor than SF. You can say customer service is SF but in america I think its more ST, perhaps ESTp, its all about tactful political correctness in dealing with customers.

the other observation is most of our leaders have to have an element of NT, where as in china they were merchant class.

I am convinced america doesn't have a niche in society for scholars though, its not a very emphasised archtype in american culture imho.

[mu4]

Interesting

more or less american culture seems like

SF = Artist/Entertainer/People-Oriented Worker
ST = Skill Labor/Worker/Salesman/Tradesman
NF = Humanitarian
NT = Business Leader/ CEO

I had put down what I thought was the American castes but it's not so strict here in the US.

It's something like this but
SF = Service
ST = Military Industrial Complex
NF = Entertainment and Religion
NT = Innovation and Business

I see it this way.
The dominant dialectic always marginalizes the other groups politically. In the US, the citizen controlled volunteer army and separation of church and state are examples of the political marginalization of the NF/ST clubs.

In China, this was entirely different as the ST and NF Soldiers and Scholars entirely dominated political discourse. Merchants were a marginalized class, in fact the lowest class in Confucian philosophy. NT's are a heretical bunch and thus sort of fit into this heretical area of influence in China. Heresy and innovation are fundamentally similar course of action and are anti-orthodoxy.

In the US, much of the laws and system of checks and balances were placed in order to prevent a situation where stagnation occurs which is what typically happens when theology, "humanitarian" and soldiers take over. For a long time continental Europe and much of the world was controlled by such a group of people and the heretics decided to travel to the US or Britain.

I need to be very clear on Scholar class because American ideas of scholastics aren't the same as Confucian ideas.

Confucian ideals of scholastics revers literature, painting, calligraphy, chess. These are ethical valuations, not logical ones. Much of the egalitarian philosophies in China were dispense with by the First Emperor who is some sort of Beta ST, who himself was deposed by the Confucian Han Emperors who were likely Delta.

Philosophies like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi and Taoist thought were largely suppressed or at the very least politically marginalized.

Scholastics for the sake of scholastics is not really a NT thing, they are called researchers but this is merely what they do not what their purpose is. The purpose is always do something concrete. This is because they all have strong Te.

American Scholastics isn't the same as say religious scholastics or Confucian scholastics, it's geared towards business, science but allow for many other studies to take place in case they prove fruitful. It's actually something that is protected nominally in the US where as other societies in the past have been very antagonistic to this sort of thing and would much rather discuss how many angels on the head of a pin and such religious subjects. Suppression in the name of blasphemy and heresy is a common course of action of NF's because they have influence over the ST club. If there is one thing that NF "humanitarians" are good at it's that they are good at indoctrinating others and being indoctrinated. This is because their weak logic and good social skills allow them to be influenced by all sort of mental deceptions as well as dispense them. Their strong intuition grants them a good sense of imagination but also make them prone to fantasy. NT's are different, they use logic to experiment on their intuitions and test them against reality. This is why they're always focused on concrete real changes rather then some abstract preference or comforting delusion. They might seem idealistic and you may not understand them, but that is not their aim, rather their aim is something much more concrete, otherwise, what's the point.

SF's are service oriented people, they have a need and ability to deal with people day to day and do something.

Why is entertainment sometimes more NF then SF, it is because much of the time it's not something that is a day to day thing, sometimes it is but often it's a creative thing where a NF can compress their thoughts and put out a show.

The idea of Scholastic culture or tradition is actually pretty lame, because the purpose of much NT research is to dispense with much of culture and tradition entirely, especially when they conflict with "progress".

Ideas about business is a fundamentally NT sort of thing. The basic relationship of business employment is material benefit for work.

ST is sadly forced labor. This is what largely happened in the Soviet bloc and somewhat in China during their recent revolutions.
NF often have the idea of work for salvation, which also leads in a way to slave labor.

Of course ST/NF get into business too, but they often have a wage structure that has large discrepancies between the highest inner group vs the lowest service people.

Gamma business are typically very good places to work as long as you provide something of value in your actions. The wages are fair and typically something above market value.

[ragnar]

I am convinced america doesn't have a niche in society for scholars though, its not a very emphasised archtype in american culture imho.

My impression as well. AFAICT, appreciation of scholarly pursuits is hard to come by outside the MIT-Harvard area, the Stanford campus and a few other isolated refuges for scholars.

[xerx]

And no offence to jxrtes, but

What does that mean, typing an entire nation over some tiny piece of information?

Eh, either people are way too into this or simply overconfident, I dunno.

That's ok, you're right. I don't think it's possible to really type whole societies. I'm only typing based on the image that many Canadians (especially politicians and the upper and middle classes) likes to project, which probably has an effect on locking the theme of the country anyway. This image is foremost about being respectful towards different cultural values and suspicion of military adventurism. If you lived here you'd understand, we get bombarded with sentiments in the media about Canadian values a million times a day.

An interesting phenomenon that's recently crept up. Although immigrants are cordially welcomed, many find it hard to work in their chosen profession because of major inefficiencies in the employment system. This is where a stronger focus on Te, from a dual, would come in handy.

The more sinister truth, however, is that Canada is very much a minor imperialist power in its own right. A recent example is Canada's involvement in Haiti in the ousting of president Jean-Bertrand Aristide, and his replacement by an unelected police state that carried out bloody political purges.