Integral Types of Countries/Nations

[munenori2]

Edited to add: It could be another type, but it's not ISTj. I would not have survived there for 25 years if it were...

Maybe you are zombie an trying to trick us to eats our brains?

[Brilliand]

Germany is ISTp >>>>>>>>> ISTj

Definitely Fi-valuing with Fe PoLR (if anything)
Hey, and they make the best cars - how much more ISTp can it get??

******'s conflictor? That's quite an overcompensation.

[Phaedrus]

If you haven't lived there, you can't know.

Yes, I can.

The ISTj crap is all based on stereotypes.

No.

The lifestyle there is not as rigid and opinionated as people assume. It's also not as efficient as people assume.

That doesn't make it more ISTp than ISTj.

Edited to add: It could be another type, but it's not ISTj. I would not have survived there for 25 years if it were...

Yes, you would.

[Brilliand]

I <3 this forum


(everybody make sure to stick around for next month when we'll be typing ****** and Einstein!)

******:
Einstein:

Those are old news.

Countries have a different "feel" or "social atmosphere" or "unspoken rules" or whatever. As has been noted, in countries such as France people generally value dressing well much more than in the US. So it's valid to say that France values + more than the US.

Does this mean that I can dualize with a whole country? Or should I move to Canada?

[Kim]

******'s conflictor? That's quite an overcompensation.

Point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
If you haven't lived there, you can't know.

Yes, I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
The ISTj crap is all based on stereotypes.

No.

And you know this how?

Haha, the ENFp zombie. I love zombies!

[1981slater]

wtf?

Hi there. Whay does wtf mean?

[implied]

Hi there. Whay does wtf mean?

something like que conyo dices

[Phaedrus]

Hi there. Whay does wtf mean?

Weed? Try for Free!

[1981slater]

Thanks, I knew it. The point is that my reasoning may be wtong, but it is clear and easy to understand. That's all.

conyo, cuyons, la canya de espanya, canyita brava, etc etc

[Creepy-Cyclops]

How does one go about typing a nation?

There's been one or two posts, with this in mind recently, and I was trying to think how I would (reasonably) accurately go about it.

Here's some things I was thinking ...

Should we use the nations current, past, possibly future politics? or perhaps the nations stereotypes?

Perhaps the nations national wealth, GDP figures?

It occurs to me there could be pockets of the society that would not relate to a national type ie the very poor part, the very rich part, perhaps city dwellers?

Should we go for messrs average (how do we define that, we'd need to look at for instance, every cross section of the nation?)

What would you guys say would be the best way to go about it?

Cheers.

[PotatoSpirit]

Stereotypes and imagination are needed I think, especially if you've never been to the place.

But if you stay in a country for a while, and meet some people, you can see which functions people seem to value more on average. You take the two that are valued the most and voila.

People strong in those functions will have an easy time, people who value them will enjoy their stay (c:

I think inadvertently everybody will try to use those functions more, and this might lead to annoying people using their weak functions (Italians' machismo for example). This is why stereotypes are good for typing nations imo.

[Phaedrus]

Stereotypes and imagination are needed I think, especially if you've never been to the place.

Yes.

But if you stay in a country for a while, and meet some people, you can see which functions people seem to value more on average. You take the two that are valued the most and voila.

No. Sweden is INTj, but that doesn't mean that there are many INTjs in Sweden or that people value the same functions as INTjs do. It is not the mix of types in a country that makes it a certain type, it is the country itself that is a certain type. It is not related to functions, it is related to type traits and type attitudes.

[PotatoSpirit]

No. Sweden is INTj, but that doesn't mean that there are many INTjs in Sweden or that people value the same functions as INTjs do. It is not the mix of types in a country that makes it a certain type, it is the country itself that is a certain type. It is not related to functions, it is related to type traits and type attitudes.

I wasn't talking about type distribution. I meant people, of any type, living in a country end up valuing (in the non-socionics meaning of the word) those functions more than people of the same type who live in another country would, and this is what creates the country's type.
What else could create it? The ground? The trees? It's gotta be the people...

[Phaedrus]

I wasn't talking about type distribution. I meant people, of any type, living in a country end up valuing (in the non-socionics meaning of the word) those functions more than people of the same type who live in another country would, and this is what creates the country's type.

I know what you meant, and I said no. It can't be that people in a certain country value some specific functions more than people of the same type who live in another country would. You value the functions that you are supposed to value in relation to the type you are. It is not people's valuing of certain functions that create the country's type.

What else could create it? The ground? The trees? It's gotta be the people...

In a sense, yes. But you confuse the constituents with the whole. A country or a nation consists of parts. Some of its parts are the people who live in it, some other parts are its institutions, etc. But the qualities of the whole are not qualities of the parts.

Your body consists of cells, but even though you (as an ISTj) value some functions over other functions, the cells in your body do not value the same functions, becaue they don't have functions preferences. A nation or a country should be viewed as a person in this context. It is the nation we are interested in typing, not its constituents. And the type of the nation is not dependent of the types of the people living in it, at least not directly.

[PotatoSpirit]

I know what you meant, and I said no.

If you knew what I meant you wouldn't have answered with:

No. Sweden is INTj, but that doesn't mean that there are many INTjs in Sweden

And:

And the type of the nation is not dependent of the types of the people living in it, at least not directly.

I am not talking about type distribution.

The cell/body example makes no sense. The cells do not create the body, they are only part of the body. The people instead create the country AND are part of the country. For this reason everything (institutions etc as you said...) has been created by people and influence how people act.

Have you really not seen group behaviors related to specific functions when traveling to other countries?

[snegledmaca]

Where I grew up excessive, extra work is seem as something akin to the plague. Basically you should never do more then you are supposed to, do the minimum and maximize your enjoyment in the process of doing it. Life is to be enjoyed and to be delighted in, good food, good drink and good friends is the main theme. Actually, to get an exact feel for this, here is a parody of the stereotype, ten commandment of this lifestyle.
1. A man is born tired and lives to rest
2. Love thy bed like you would yourself
3. Rest during the day so that you can sleep at night
4. Don't work! Work kills!
5. When you see somebody resting, help them
6. Never do today what you can put off till tomorrow
7. Work to below your minimum, and that which you have to do try to dump on somebody else
8. There is salvation in the shade! Resting never killed anybody
9. Work brings illness. Do not die young!
10. When you get to urge to get up and go, sit down, wait, it will pass

[Phaedrus]

Have you really not seen group behaviors related to specific functions when traveling to other countries?

Do you think that the relative distribution of the types explain the type differences between nations/countries? There are relatively more introverts in Sweden compared to for example the US, so it might have something to do with it. But how do you explain the indisputable fact that there are many more ISTjs than INTjs in Sweden, and yet Sweden as a country is INTj?

[PotatoSpirit]

Do you think that the relative distribution of the types explain the type differences between nations/countries? There are relatively more introverts in Sweden compared to for example the US, so it might have something to do with it. But how do you explain the indisputable fact that there are many more ISTjs than INTjs in Sweden, and yet Sweden as a country is INTj?

lol

[Phaedrus]

lol

That is not an appropriate response. Now, please answer my question.

[PotatoSpirit]

I am not talking about type distribution.

Do you think that the relative distribution of the types explain the type differences between nations/countries?

I thought you were joking with that sry...

Ok, I'll try with an example.

Italy (ESFp) is composed of 1 INTj, 1 ISTj and 1 ESFp
Sweden (INTj) is composed of 1 INTj, 1 ISTj and 1 ESFp

In Italy, the ESFp will have a grand time: his functions are valued and even the INTj tries to go along with the SeFi atmosphere, because his normal behavior is frowned at by society.

In Sweden the opposite happens.

Compared to the Swedish ISTj, the Italian ISTj will naturally use Se more often, especially in the company of other Italians.

You can easily notice this if you meet a group of Italians in a foreign country... they will be the obnoxious Se ones.

[liveandletlive]

In Italy, the ESFp will have a grand time: his functions are valued and even the INTj tries to go along with the SeFi atmosphere, because his normal behavior is frowned at by society.

*reminder to self: must get to italy as soon as possible.

[Christy B]

What type do you think France is? Fe with Si seem to be valued at least in pop culture. I see Fe used a lot even by people who should NOT be using it. Typing French people for me can be a little hard, since I see so much Fe going on.

[Christy B]

What country has Delta values?

I can't think of any. . .

[Phaedrus]

Ok, I'll try with an example.

Italy (ESFp) is composed of 1 INTj, 1 ISTj and 1 ESFp
Sweden (INTj) is composed of 1 INTj, 1 ISTj and 1 ESFp

In Italy, the ESFp will have a grand time: his functions are valued and even the INTj tries to go along with the SeFi atmosphere, because his normal behavior is frowned at by society.

In Sweden the opposite happens.

Compared to the Swedish ISTj, the Italian ISTj will naturally use Se more often, especially in the company of other Italians.

You can easily notice this if you meet a group of Italians in a foreign country... they will be the obnoxious Se ones.

Why would Italians in general value the same functions as the ESFp does, if they are not ESFps themselves and not even members of the same quadra? Why would Swedes in general value the same functions as INTjs do? You haven't provided an explanation for that curious phenomenon. It doesn't make sense, because it contradicts Socionics theory.

[munenori2]

What country has Delta values?

I can't think of any. . .

I've heard Norway pointed out before, as well as Austrailia. I also remember someone proposing ISTp for Japan, but it's all very hard to say. I have trouble typing one person at a time, much less countries!

[munenori2]

Why would Italians in general value the same functions as the ESFp does, if they are not ESFps themselves and not even members of the same quadra? Why would Swedes in general value the same functions as INTjs do? You haven't provided an explanation for that curious phenomenon. It doesn't make sense, because it contradicts Socionics theory.

Maybe he means a relatively higher competency in these functions across the general population due to having to use them slightly more in daily life or, even rejecting those functions, at least their being more pervasive and thereby open to observation?

[PotatoSpirit]

What type do you think France is? Fe with Si seem to be valued at least in pop culture. I see Fe used a lot even by people who should NOT be using it. Typing French people for me can be a little hard, since I see so much Fe going on.

Yes, I agree with ESFj for France, but I've only been to Paris.

England is usually referred to as Delta, it sounds about right.
Europe in general too, but I can't really see it.

[PotatoSpirit]

Why would Italians in general value the same functions as the ESFp does, if they are not ESFps themselves and not even members of the same quadra? Why would Swedes in general value the same functions as INTjs do? You haven't provided an explanation for that curious phenomenon. It doesn't make sense, because it contradicts Socionics theory.

I have not provided an explanation because I don't have one. It's obviously something that evolves well beyond a lifetime, I can only guess it might have to do with historical/geographical situations forcing the use and acceptance of certain functions.

It does not contradict socionics theory: the Italian INTj is still an INTj, it will only be influenced by peer pressure and education to use his weak unvalued functions more. On average, and very little on a personal level, but when taking groups into account it's noticeable.

[1981slater]

Finnish girls believe Swedish guys are gays

[Ezra]

Finnish girls believe Swedish guys are gays

It's because of the long hair.

[1981slater]

...long hair?

who? where? why?

[implied]

barcelona & catalunya = ISTp, yeah?

[1981slater]

Barcelona is filled with delta ST's who burn cars every time there is a demonstration against Spain, the world bank, G7+Russia, global warming, women with moustaches or anything worse
Most of the police officers are beta ST's, therefore we find a quadra-conflict in there

[1981slater]

Delta NF's mastermind riots

[Airman]

I know only that UK is ESTJ.

I think from what I remember from a conversation... USA is ENTP, Germany is ISTJ . Is this right? What are other countries´ types such as France, Spain, Russia, Italy and any other?

[Airman]

Spain seems ESTp to me.

[Brilliand]

I remember the U.S. being typed ENTj... and France being typed ESFj. Russia was ESTp...

This topic has come up on this forum before.

[Creepy-male]

I remember

Germany - LSI
United States - ILE
France - SEI

[717495]

USA is ENTP

Really?

I'm sure everyone's already seen this, but for what it's worth, here's something from Rick's ethnosocionics page:

- Israel, ancient classical Greece? Armenia?
- China? Italy, much of Central Asia and Caucasus region
- U.S., England, English-speaking Canada, Australia, New Zealand
- many Catholic countries, including much of Latin America
- Russia, India
- Japan, Finland, much of sub-Saharan Africa?
- Germany
- Ukraine, Slovakia?, Estonia?

Concept of Integral types with groups, organizations, and nations

* certain aspects of reality are freely discussed in all their complexity, while others are avoided or carefully restricted
* one information element becomes the dominant "common language" of the group; convincing arguments are phrased in this language and group members revert to this language when making contact with new group members or people they don't know within the group
* the group takes on behavioral patterns typical of a certain socionic type with its inherent strengths and weaknesses

[717495]

I hope current Greece isn't strongly over other aspects. I really wanted to visit and not get annoyed by the people there, seems like such a nice place in its seasonal ripening.

I should add, from personal experience, I know of a lot of Alpha-oriented Mexicans. Seems like various manifestations of these quadra values are highly ingrained into their language and culture.