No. Definitely not.Originally Posted by Kim
No. Definitely not.
If you haven't lived there, you can't know. The ISTj crap is all based on
stereotypes. The lifestyle there is not as rigid and opinionated as people assume. It's also not as efficient as people assume.
Edited to add: It could be another type, but it's not ISTj. I would not have survived there for 25 years if it were...
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
My local pub is probably Delta -> ISTp.
Haha, for some reason this makes me think of a pub I used to frequent for free poker.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
******'s conflictor? That's quite an overcompensation.Germany is ISTp >>>>>>>>> ISTj
Definitely Fi-valuing with Fe PoLR (if anything)
Hey, and they make the best cars - how much more ISTp can it get??
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
******'s conflictor? That's quite an overcompensation.Point taken.
And you know this how?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
If you haven't lived there, you can't know.
Yes, I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
The ISTj crap is all based on stereotypes.
No.
Haha, the ENFp zombie. I love zombies!
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Hello again.
Now it looks obvious to me that USA is ENTp:
Rolepeople trying to look so (not to expose their weaknesses in the quality of outsiders), but such is not in an emergency situation is so - "I know how little there, but this is really just you get on a full programme
Perhaps being bully makes USA feel safer
PoLrpeople on it accumulates information, but not sure of its capacity, these principles should be more in words than in deeds because decisive action on their own 2 - making functions and chaos in the experience of 4 - and functions. Sometimes this person may exercise the functions of a rare stubbornness, conservatism and resentment: it may itself understands that needed improvement, but on their own they are not in a position to provide. To criticize this feature useless - helping here only target boards, including already ready solution.
Learning Socionics is a way to fight against one's hidden agenda. USA tends to classify people into groups in order to be able to know what to expect from them
Hidden agenda"To be popular" USA alternates success with failure
wtf?
x
Hi there. Whay does wtf mean?
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
something like que conyo dices
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
Weed? Try for Free!
National Typing
How does one go about typing a nation?
There's been one or two posts, with this in mind recently, and I was trying to think how I would (reasonably) accurately go about it.
Here's some things I was thinking ...
Should we use the nations current, past, possibly future politics? or perhaps the nations stereotypes?
Perhaps the nations national wealth, GDP figures?
It occurs to me there could be pockets of the society that would not relate to a national type ie the very poor part, the very rich part, perhaps city dwellers?
Should we go for messrs average (how do we define that, we'd need to look at for instance, every cross section of the nation?)
What would you guys say would be the best way to go about it?
Cheers.
Last edited by Cyclops; 04-15-2008 at 02:29 PM.
Stereotypes and imagination are needed I think, especially if you've never been to the place.
But if you stay in a country for a while, and meet some people, you can see which functions people seem to value more on average. You take the two that are valued the most and voila.
People strong in those functions will have an easy time, people who value them will enjoy their stay (c:
I think inadvertently everybody will try to use those functions more, and this might lead to annoying people using their weak functions (Italians' machismo for example). This is why stereotypes are good for typing nations imo.
LSI
Yes.
No. Sweden is INTj, but that doesn't mean that there are many INTjs in Sweden or that people value the same functions as INTjs do. It is not the mix of types in a country that makes it a certain type, it is the country itself that is a certain type. It is not related to functions, it is related to type traits and type attitudes.
I wasn't talking about type distribution. I meant people, of any type, living in a country end up valuing (in the non-socionics meaning of the word) those functions more than people of the same type who live in another country would, and this is what creates the country's type.
What else could create it? The ground? The trees? It's gotta be the people...
LSI
I know what you meant, and I said no. It can't be that people in a certain country value some specific functions more than people of the same type who live in another country would. You value the functions that you are supposed to value in relation to the type you are. It is not people's valuing of certain functions that create the country's type.
In a sense, yes. But you confuse the constituents with the whole. A country or a nation consists of parts. Some of its parts are the people who live in it, some other parts are its institutions, etc. But the qualities of the whole are not qualities of the parts.
Your body consists of cells, but even though you (as an ISTj) value some functions over other functions, the cells in your body do not value the same functions, becaue they don't have functions preferences. A nation or a country should be viewed as a person in this context. It is the nation we are interested in typing, not its constituents. And the type of the nation is not dependent of the types of the people living in it, at least not directly.
Integral Types of Countries
I know only that UK is ESTJ.
I think from what I remember from a conversation... USA is ENTP, Germany is ISTJ . Is this right? What are other countries´ types such as France, Spain, Russia, Italy and any other?
Spain seems ESTp to me.
I remember the U.S. being typed ENTj... and France being typed ESFj. Russia was ESTp...
This topic has come up on this forum before.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I remember
Germany - LSI
United States - ILE
France - SEI
Really?
I'm sure everyone's already seen this, but for what it's worth, here's something from Rick's ethnosocionics page:
- Russia, India
- Japan, Finland, much of sub-Saharan Africa?
Concept of Integral types with groups, organizations, and nations
* certain aspects of reality are freely discussed in all their complexity, while others are avoided or carefully restricted
* one information element becomes the dominant "common language" of the group; convincing arguments are phrased in this language and group members revert to this language when making contact with new group members or people they don't know within the group
* the group takes on behavioral patterns typical of a certain socionic type with its inherent strengths and weaknesses
I hope current Greece isn't strongly
I should add, from personal experience, I know of a lot of Alpha-oriented Mexicans. Seems like various manifestations of these quadra values are highly ingrained into their language and culture.
"For example, most of Europe is made up of rational integral types (logic or ethics as the leading function), while most of Asia is irrational (intuition or sensing). Within European civilization, countries where protestantism dominates generally have logical integral types, while Catholic cultures are almost always ethical. Extraverted logic is the common language of all English-speaking countries, which currently dominate the spheres of science and technology. Russia, while belonging to greater European rational culture, has an irrational mentality that is reflected in its Asian leanings and its particular breed of creativity within the western world. The Asian religions of Hinduism and Buddhism, unfathomable to the Western mind, are dominant in India and China, where irrationality flourishes."
this seems totally accurate.
Mediterranean cultures will look moreI hope current Greece isn't strongly
Anyway, hard for me to given an integral type for Italy. Averaging out all the regions, I'd guess ESFp could be a good approximation.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Mexico is SEI, as I recall.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Belgium is also ISFp.
Europe on the whole is Delta. I agree that Netherlands is Delta, although probably extrovert > introvert on account of how we rely a lot on foreign relations for our success in the world. ENFp is a good bet for reasons also mentioned by CA.
Removed at User Request
I sure hope so.Maybe you'll be ILE that time.
It depends on what the Sorting Hat decrees.Maybe you'll be ILE that time
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
The UK is not really Si valuing, stereotypically that is. I'd say LIE is more fitting; they have rather conflicting values with France which explains a lot history wise I suppose...
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Canada - Delta
Although, Canada's current prime minister/government is not Delta.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
Japan = ESTj
I don´t know, my friend says UK is ESTj too.
Canada could be ESTj also, too orderly.
I know Enneagram types for countries, but not Socionics types.
you´re right Brilliand, USA = ENTj, France= ESFj, Russia= ESTp, Germany ISTj makes sense. Japan is said to be ESTj but I don´t think so.
but no way UK is also ENTj , Marie.
ENTj wants money, is a culture which values personal enterprise, success and money above all. I don´t see the UK like that at all.
Yah, it's kind of Ne/Si at least
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I agree with Rick's assessment that he's LxE.
For Harper I am inclined to say he is more Gamma than Delta, so I am not opposed to LIE.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
England has rivalry with France because of the Normans, historically speaking. Nothing to do with type.
USA- LSE-Te, 3w4 so/sp (ESTJ)
UK - LIE-Ni, 8w9 sp/so (INTJ)
Japan- ESI-Fi, 3w2 so/sp (INTJ)
Canada- EII-Ne, 6w7 so/sx (INFP)
Italy- ESE-Si, 7w6 sp/sx (ENTP)
Spain- ESE-Fe, 7w8 sx/sp (ESTP)
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Spain is a gamma SEE-Se nation. Even if I acknowledge ESE Fe is a very common type in the South, the obssession for religion, the way people despise science, the fact that very few people read books (and, those who do so usually read novels), etc etc make me conclude that SEE is the type which represents Spain. And, on the whole, SEE is the most common type around here.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...m-ideas-3.html
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
Yeah, SEE-Se 6w7 makes sense for Spain.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Integral Type of Japan
I was reading http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro3.html and realized they don't have Japan; I decided to figure out Japan's macro type.
There could be a lot of arguing over how they are punctual and orderly but secretly have a lot of undisclosed emotions etc. (Pulling this from a general tongue in cheek description of the type I think they are). So I opted to figure out what they are based on their relationships with other nations an line that up with reasoning that fits not for scientific, but rather layman's reasoning.
The survey asked who they (Japanese) would like to date, from foreign nations, numbers look something like this:
1. USA – 4,194
2. Italy – 3743
3. UK – 3,467
4. France – 3,249
5. Korea – 2,706
6. Spain – 1,535
7. Russia – 1,256
8. Germany – 1,195
9. Brazil – 396
10. China – 296
WARNING: Non English site. If you are paranoid don't go.
http://cache001.ranking.goo.ne.jp/cr...ROSXsBwdk_all/
So I typed them as ISFjs. Cross referencing Gulenko's macro types we get the following relationships with ESI.
1. USA - (LIE): Duality
2. Italy – (SEE): Mirror
3. UK – (LSE): Semi Duality
4. France – (ESE): Contrasting
5. Korea – (ESI): Identity
6. Spain – (IEE): Supervisor
7. Russia – (IEI): Beneficiary
8. Germany – (LSI): Look Alike
9. Brazil – (SEx): Quasi/Mirror
10. China – (LSI): Look Alike
I simply matched the first to be the duality and let it unfold; turned out to be very fitting across the board. Though Mirror relationships are rather low ranked they are still in the same quadra and would therefore bear a curiosity; hence Italy's ranking. The rest were popular countries and lined up nicely. There is a sharp decline for Supervisor/Beneficiary (Half that of Identical Korea). Japan has had somewhat of a negative history with Germany, what with a world war leading to atomic surrender etc. Brazil and China are the largest sources of immigrant workers in Japan.
It seems the US and Japan have had a duality relationship for decades already and nobody is the wiser. It's face-palmingly obvious once you think about it. Japan has an air of honor, respect for traditions, conservative immigration policy, everyone looks like they spend an hour on their looks, proper service. America is accepting to new ideas and ventures and won Japan over through innovation, competition and productivity. Literally sweeping them off the ground into a sort of forced relationship.
Furthermore on the very front page of http://www.najc.ca/, Japanese/Canadian website it shows statistics about how Japanese intermarriage in Canada are among the highest of all Asian groups. CBC Radio also does occasional world pieces about this trend in both Canada and America. Their macro-types affect down to the base levels of society.
Remember: Japan has been for 60 years and is now, OCCUPIED by the US. They do not have their own military, their military is America's. The fact that such an occupation has had no problems, past or foreseeable, is outstanding. By contrast Canada's French wanted to separate from the rest of the English, and consider all of the former Soviet nations demanding independence.
Expanding this idea Britain as an ESTj, Canada an INFj, you can create an analogy of the world. Old Grandma Britain (Long live the Queen) has a very friendly duality relationship with one of her sons, Canada; kind of quiet and but very loyal who still drops by her house and makes sure she's alright. While the other son is a bit more of a go getter and decided to strike out on his own, has occasional arguments about doing what is conservative vs doing what is enterprising. The two brothers share a semi-dual relationship and get along swell. They join forces beat up the vandals savaging their mother's neighborhood (Europe). The one brother (America) saw that one of the girls in the gangs was not from the neighborhood, rather exotic and probably just misguided; broke her spirits and took her as a girlfriend. We end up seeing a sort ESTj-INFj ENTj-ISFj health club going on. Only a passing knowledge of history reveals how Britain has had nothing but problems from Europe, and I would wager my money on them eventually leaving the EU for a western union.
Buck up Gamma Delta Js. You embody 4 of the most powerful nations on earth, and potentially the "Western" empire.
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