Erotic Attitudes: the line between "Aggressor" and "Victim"

[misutii]

ehm mitsuii, what's the conclusion of your rant?

that sex and socionics are related. I don't especially know how and I don't think any one person here does either but it is worthwhile to think about because it's important to know what's in our control and what isn't. Why is it that with one person I feel comfortably talking about pretty much anything whereas with another trying to talk about the same things make me blush and get embarrassed and nervous? Maybe I'm too young and lack the wisdom to answer these questions but what I do know is that I've seen the consequences of not dealing with this shit before it's too late. Families torn apart when the children needed their parent's love the most. People afraid to leave dead end relationships because they believe it's all they have and there's no one that can truly love them. I find that lots of people are obsessed with controlling stupid little every day matters that they let their futures escape them. Maybe it's presumptuous of me to believe I'm any different, "C'est la vie", but if we believed that we wouldn't be here.

[Kim]

sex and socionics are related.

That's it. I quit.

[Blaze]

misutii i agree that sex and socionics are related and no one has found a way to comprehensively articulate that relatedness. i am one of those who don't like the labels they've used and find the descriptions too limited or something.

but i find the whole topic of the meaning of sex for relationships very facinating and the interpretation and understanding that socionics might provide is potentially a growth area for socionics.

sex is hard for people to talk about though....easy to joke about, easy to become embarrassed about, easy to express other kinds of defensiveness about, and most especially hard to think about putting one's thoughts into words and posting them on line.

[stefana]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you."
victim: "try. i will live to see your end, your very nasty end, if God is willing."

careful: "no that's too much skin. i will show you the bottom of my ankle. this was hot in the olden days you know?"
infantile: "no. *yawn*. tickle me."

[misutii]

sex and socionics are related.

That's it. I quit.

I'm not implying that this whole erotic attitude thing should be adhered to. For Gulenko to claim that relations between all aggressors and infantile are bad is quite the generalization for example, i think that certain types characterized as "aggressor" might do well with certain types characterized as "infantile" etc. If inter-type relations decrees that relationships between certain types are "better" or at least "easier" then I think it's immature to completely separate sex from the equation... after all it's not often that you hear people say "wow my relationship is amazing in every area!!! except the sex... but that doesn't matter!!"
I think it would be fun if some russian continued where Aushra left off and examined patterns in sexual relations between types. lol, talk about risque, how the hell does one even go about beginning to exact such a study?!

and diamond8 i agree. I think my curiousity sometimes leads me to petulance and I apologize for offending anyone's sensibilities on the matter, my intent on the whole matter was merely to gain knowledge and find patterns on a topic where such does not come so easy.

[XoX]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

From this I would say I most often behave like infantile I can also be aggressor or victim depending on my mood. I don't relate much to the careful description. I'm not sure if this has any relevance to my type hunt though since the descriptions may be misleading

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

[Mea]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

From this I would say I most often behave like infantile I can also be aggressor or victim depending on my mood. I don't relate much to the careful description. I'm not sure if this has any relevance to my type hunt though since the descriptions may be misleading

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

Chameleon!

[Blaze]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

From this I would say I most often behave like infantile I can also be aggressor or victim depending on my mood. I don't relate much to the careful description. I'm not sure if this has any relevance to my type hunt though since the descriptions may be misleading

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

i agree with this. i'm the same way.

[Joy]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

I don't relate much to the careful description. I'm not sure if this has any relevance to my type hunt though since the descriptions may be misleading

I rarely become the careful though.

These descriptions are just jokes, which is good because the careful description is extremely misleading and incorrect. It paints Si types as extremely sexually conservative... bullshit.

[Slacker]

caretaker: Likes to focus attention on partner
infantile: Likes attention to be focused on them

But life is more complex than any of these short descriptions allow. Also, I think partners sometimes switch back and forth in the roles a bit. And I think it's more romantic behavior in general than specifically sexual behavior, although there is an obvious relationship between the two.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[XoX]

I was trying to find some of the old threads on this.

Here's one on the subtypes and erotic attitudes:
http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9120

And this one is entertaining : http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1886

This is the best however! The interpretation of erotic attitudes presented in the first post was later in the thread approved by Dmitri Lytov so it must be good.
http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2586

[Joy]

I don't think the victim/aggressor dichotomy is as much about control as it is made to sound in those descriptions, but I would like to point out that dmitri called them "love types" (as opposed to "sex types" ). "Power" may be a better word than "control", but I don't think one side is more powerful than the other. They just play different parts. The victim is the one who sets the standards though, imo.

that thread is so embarrassing... I had no idea wtf I was talking about lol

[XoX]

Sex attitudes:

Aggressor: "you will submit to my will or i will destroy you"
Infantile: "Is that your breast/wirry?" "yes..." "may i touch it?" "yes!" " oh my god i touched it can i touch it again?" ""
Victim: "Spank me till my buttocks are raw!"
Careful: "No thats too much Skin. I will show you the bottom of my ankle. This was hot in the olden days you know?"

From this I would say I most often behave like infantile I can also be aggressor or victim depending on my mood. I don't relate much to the careful description. I'm not sure if this has any relevance to my type hunt though since the descriptions may be misleading

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

Chameleon!

<- Meh

[meatburger]

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

Yeah i know what you mean about the Chameleon thing, im sure most can do it to some extent. Without going into too much detail, i would say my natural attitude towards sex is romantic. Taking a long time to reach erogenous zones, massage, foreplay, light kissing, saying sexual stuff etc. Especially at the start of a relationship.

Once i was walking through the park with my girlfriend and i pushed her up against a tree and um fucked her right there. I think thats more of an agressive thing. This very same girlfriend(ESFp) would occasionally go nuts at me in the bedroom. She would snap and turn into devil girl and i told her such. I cant say i didn't enjoy it but not sure if it would be my favourite?

[Blaze]

Edit:
You could say that I adapt to the situation somewhat. If I'm with aggressor I become the victim. If I'm with victim I become the aggressor. If I'm with careful I become the infantile. I rarely become the careful though.

Yeah i know what you mean about the Chameleon thing, im sure most can do it to some extent. Without going into too much detail, i would say my natural attitude towards sex is romantic. Taking a long time to reach erogenous zones, massage, foreplay, light kissing, saying sexual stuff etc. Especially at the start of a relationship.

Once i was walking through the park with my girlfriend and i pushed her up against a tree and um fucked her right there. I think thats more of an agressive thing. This very same girlfriend(ESFp) would occasionally go nuts at me in the bedroom. She would snap and turn into devil girl and i told her such. I cant say i didn't enjoy it but not sure if it would be my favourite?

you go! sounds fun, for sure.

[meatburger]

Yeah even though from my post it seems like I believe erotic attitudes match actual sexual attitudes im in two minds. I agree the lines seem very blurry to me

[FDG]

Yeah even though from my post it seems like I believe erotic attitudes match actual sexual attitudes im in two minds. I agree the lines seem very blurry to me

If you are Ethical subtype then the infantile-aggressor is blurred.

Even if, it actually seems to me that ISTp-Te would tend to be more "aggressors" than ISTp-Si.

[XoX]

Once i was walking through the park with my girlfriend and i pushed her up against a tree and um fucked her right there. I think thats more of an agressive thing.

It may be aggressive behavior but I don't think it is a sign of being an aggressor. It is more a Ne-thing. It just suddenly pops into your head that you want to fuck her right there. An introverted Ne-type probably wouldn't actually do it but an extroverted Ne type would/might go for it (and refuse to take a no for an answer). A careful/caring type would be more than happy to satisfy this sudden urge of yours.

Now a clear aggressor thing would be to say to your girlfriend in the morning "Today I'm going to fuck you in the park" and then actually go and do that later in the day. A good victim would consider that kind of prolonged "mental dominance" foreplay sexually very arousing.

[Olimpia]

Introversion/Extroversion can confuse matters because the extrovert is often the one who initiates relationships. Other than that, I think the line between aggressor and victim is much more skewed in Gamma than it is in Beta, from my observations and understanding of Beta duality.

^This.

Generally speaking, Aggressors and Childlike types (being static) are the "initiators", however Introversion can weaken this tendency.
While Extroversion can weaken the tendency of Victims and Childlikes to be "receptive" and make them a bit more initiative.

Due to this, I treat ESI and (perhaps the odd LSI-2Ti) as "Pseudo-Victims".
I've seen the term before, and find it applies very well to ESI-Fi (and some very Ti "heavy" LSIs), because of their HA and heightened introversion. SEE-Fi people may also be sort of "Pseudo-Victims", the counterpart to their Dual who is "Pseudo-Aggressor". But this effect is much less apparent than with ESIs. I've found especially the female ESI-Fi can feel and act like Victims sometimes (primarily in the beginning of interactions), and even more so when they are Type 4. (You could argue all Type 4s feel like "Victims" in some way or another, because of their psychology and tendency towards depression and self-abasement at unhealthy levels. This kind of "Victimhood" is not truly the same as Gulenko intends, but 4s who self-type will readily relate to that Romance Style more than the Aggressor or possibly even Childlike one. Besides that, any Withdrawn Enneagram type will feel more like a "receptive" than an "initiative" person, and the opposite would apply to Assertive types).

And as I have already alluded to, gender (role) and possibly sex can also influence quite significantly whether someone is going to be more like their Romance Style or not (outwardly).

Generally speaking, most men strive towards being more like an Aggressor, whether they actually are one or not. With females, I see that they tend to strive towards being either more like a Victim or a Caretaker – either way, being more like a "dynamic" type that is on the "receiving" end of the interaction. Whether they embrace the Victim or Caretaker role typically depends on which IE they value: or , and how strong they are at this IE.

That results in female leads not being as direct and aggressive as one would expect from Aggressors, especially the SEE-Fi females try to be more "coquettish" and "alluring" opposed to downright direct and "aggressive". They will throw a lot of hints, make intense eye contact, touch you (aka put a hand on your shoulder), wink at you, etc etc. But that is typically as far as they will go.

On the other hand, male EIEs can end up pursuing a woman of their affections sort of relentlessly (which could be confused for "Aggressor" behaviour), but in a fashion that would resemble the "courtly love" of troubadours from the Middle Ages the most. In fact, I get the impression the troubadour archetype is EIE.

 

I am pretty sure Ewan McGregor plays an EIE in this movie.

Male LIEs are typically very obviously "Pseudo-Aggressor", I don't feel like adding too much about their behaviour here.
Just two words: Christian Grey.


To summarize, the main factors that influence the expression of one's romance style are:
Introversion vs Extroversion, Hidden Agenda, Gender (and possibly Sex), Enneagram type.

Aspects that make you seem more like a "receptive" romance style, aka Victim or Caretaker:
Strong(er) Introversion, or HA, Female, Withdrawn Enneagram type (4, 5, 9), and likely 1D or .

Aspects that make you seem more like an "initiative" romance style, aka Aggressor or Childlike:
Strong(er) Extroversion, or HA, Male, Assertive Enneagram type (3, 7, 8), and likely 1D or .