Experiences with Conflicting Relations

[Creepy-bg]

not slapping your conflictor's polr means you suppress your natural inclinations.

With ESFp, I sometimes blurt out when they have blatantly contradicted a previous statement. It's automatic. :/

Btw I have noticed that whenever ESFp and I talk we quite often begin speaking at the same time. No flow at all.

What experiences do you have with your conflictor that show lack of flow, and can we specify which functions are responsible? Or is it just something that can be generalized across all conflictors? My example about talking at the same time I could see related to Se/Ni.

i completely agree- you guys can get really annoying with that- just think of the logical errors to yourself and direct your intuition towards seeing the deeper intent of what the see is saying.

u mean there's deeper intent to what SEEs say?

everyone has an intent when they say something. you may be referring to meaning?

im going to have to find some sort of "nitpick much?" pic or something to post for when i try to interact with you... this is getting to be a pattern

[Slacker]

If she's talking Ti PoLR, then I understand exactly what she means. It's like people will focus on this little detail and completely ignore the overall point you're trying to make.

[Creepy-bg]

sigh

you people aren't any fun to play with

[liveandletlive]

not slapping your conflictor's polr means you suppress your natural inclinations.

With ESFp, I sometimes blurt out when they have blatantly contradicted a previous statement. It's automatic. :/

Btw I have noticed that whenever ESFp and I talk we quite often begin speaking at the same time. No flow at all.

What experiences do you have with your conflictor that show lack of flow, and can we specify which functions are responsible? Or is it just something that can be generalized across all conflictors? My example about talking at the same time I could see related to Se/Ni.

i completely agree- you guys can get really annoying with that- just think of the logical errors to yourself and direct your intuition towards seeing the deeper intent of what the see is saying.

fine...but what do YOU do? that, my friend, is the question on the table.

that is for my conflictor to decide and communicate to me.

i beg to differ....i think it's about the relationship and the interaction, not just commenting on how they affect you.

i was talking about our relationship and interaction and was asking how i affect them and how i can change that.

[Christy B]

At first my conflictor, if male (I don't think I know any female SLE), often wants to hook up with me. I must give off somewhat of a victim vibe to them. It is like they don't notice that they freak me out, and that I am actually really scared of them. After a while it just gets awkward, when I act a little goofy/silly instead of whatever victims are supposed to do. I try hard not to do this, (act goofy), but it is almost impossible. This must confuse them because what they want here is Fe, and I am giving them Ne which seems like a ridiculous waste of time I am sure.

After the intial stage my conflictor bothers me by trying to dominate the space of a room, or getting really close to me to talk, or being loud, crazy, or getting really soft and quite (which really freaks me out), as they try and see what angle they can use to "deal" with me. I try and make way for them physically, so that they can have controll of Se, but there is always a weirdness that cannot be overcome. This always makes my Si uncomfortable too. I feel like they want to shake me internally but I refuse to be shaken.

[Logos]

If she's talking Ti PoLR, then I understand exactly what she means. It's like people will focus on this little detail and completely ignore the overall point you're trying to make.

Why? Because they are trying to understand the overall point that you are trying to make, and they seek to determine the meaning of every component. Generally they can understand your overall point, but there may still be a perceived weakness that they seek to solve to better clarify or strengthen the overall point itself.

[FDG]

If ISFPs are my conflictor, I never really feel like my PoLR is being slapped. I know some and they all have a crazy-fun air about them and we like this about each other, that we're both spontaenous. If INFJs are my conflictor, I can't see what they do to hit my PoLR. They're generally gentle and very nice with me. If INTJs are my conflictor...I can't see how I conflict with them, either. Actually going by which type I conflict with the most, I'd be an ISTP.

[Logos]

Well in general, I think that most people blow the whole PoLR slapping thing out of proportion and turn it (and associated types) into the projection of all of their conflicts in life. ::shrugs:: Socionics: the art of learning how to rationalize and blame your own shortcomings onto others.

[Kristiina]

If she's talking Ti PoLR, then I understand exactly what she means. It's like people will focus on this little detail and completely ignore the overall point you're trying to make.

That's funny. types feel like that to me.

[Expat]

That's funny. types feel like that to me.

Yes. Which is why EIEs (and some related types) often think that is "not being intuitive", which refers to Isabel Myers's view of "intuition".

[mimisor]

Well in general, I think that most people blow the whole PoLR slapping thing out of proportion and turn it (and associated types) into the projection of all of their conflicts in life. ::shrugs:: Socionics: the art of learning how to rationalize and blame your own shortcomings onto others.

Well said.

I for one avoid to use the term "conflictor" as it bears very strong negative connotations, which may not always be the case. I'd suggest to use the term "quasi-dual" instead. Imagine then how the whole perspective that people have about their conflictor would change and maybe they will even try to find some "common ground" with them. I'm not saying that it is a good relation either, but imo for sure there are worse.

Even duals can slap your polr, or anybody for that matter.


Yeah i feel like that too, sometimes types don't get my point which is frustrating and then i have to make an extra effort to explain myself.

LE: However, I do acknowledge the utility Specifically i value its ability to transfer information/ideas/concepts from one person to another.

[Logos]

Well said.

I for one avoid to use the term "conflictor" as it bears very strong negative connotations, which may not always be the case. I'd suggest to use the term "quasi-dual" instead. Imagine then how the whole perspective that people have about their conflictor would change and maybe they will even try to find some "common ground" with them. I'm not saying that it is a good relation either, but imo for sure there are worse.

Even duals can slap your polr, or anybody for that matter.


Yeah i feel like that too, sometimes types don't get my point which is frustrating and then i have to make an extra effort to explain myself.

Quasi-Dual? I like it. I wonder if there is another term out there other than Conflictor.

[mimisor]

Yes, i went on the lines where there are these two couples:

identity - quasi-identity
duality - quasi-duality (but...it seems that the term "conflictor" was chosen for some reason)

[XoX]

If ISFPs are my conflictor, I never really feel like my PoLR is being slapped. I know some and they all have a crazy-fun air about them and we like this about each other, that we're both spontaenous. If INFJs are my conflictor, I can't see what they do to hit my PoLR. They're generally gentle and very nice with me. If INTJs are my conflictor...I can't see how I conflict with them, either. Actually going by which type I conflict with the most, I'd be an ISTP.

You are INFp like mustachio

[XoX]

That's funny. types feel like that to me.

I guess some types think "getting all the logics correct" is a detail and some types think "getting all the facts correct" is a detail.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yes. It's going to happen. It's written in the stars lol...

Any kind of knowing somebody on a more deeper level will ignite all workings in socionics, which is why I think it's solid science not just hocus pocus. The real-life examples I can give of this shit is pretty numerous.

The depth and complexity can be pretty obvious. If you just know somebody on a very base level- then yes it can be avoided, but that's a moot point, because we don't want to know unless we're gonna have to be working with them or sharing ourselves in some unavoidable way.

But socionics is ultimately frustrating, since it is science- it can't tell the future very well- there's no magic involved (even if it might seem that way), so you have to experience it yourself really. However, it does tempt everyone to kinda cut the BS and go straight to the deep stuff- but I think still, that stuff is better left naturally undercovered over-time. It does seem pretty slow though. Do I really have to spend two weeks with a person to get deeper and find out they're not for me? I guess that's life.

I believe with the knowledge, and a certain degree of willpower we can accelerate or decelerate this process- but we have to be careful of course. As idealistic as I am, I can't fix things in one grand-gesture or sweep- cannot magically attract all my duals to me while beating all my enemies, but it would be nice. At least I know what types to avoid for sure now, ambiguity is annoying but it's what humanizes us.

[Park]

Btw I have noticed that whenever ESFp and I talk we quite often begin speaking at the same time. No flow at all.

Yes, yes, yes. I 've found the same (in my conflicting relationships).

[Park]

That's funny. types feel like that to me.

Yeah, people find me that way sometimes. It's not that I'm ignoring the point thou, it's just that I want to be clear on the specifics so I would grasp the point more clearly, preventing the chances of misunderstanding it. Some people call this "naivety".

[UDP]

Two immediate questions

why are they annoying to you?
what are some positive experiences you have with them?

[Minde]

Well, my conflictor is the ESTp and I know at least two of them. They don't annoy me so much as we can have trouble understanding each other. We often have different goals and different ways of reaching those goals. Different... ways of looking at the world. Which means that sometimes getting on the same page, especially as it relates to people, can be challenging.

They can intimidate me. They're pretty good at that, though over the years I've learned how to interact with them - that they're not really that scary and that it's acceptable to voice my thoughts and opinions.

I've had lots of positive experiences with the two ESTps that I know. It helps that they have great character, I'm sure. I've worked with and for both of them and have spent lots of time around them. I've discovered that as long as communication lines stay open most problems that come up can be avoided or overcome. Good communication and sometimes just some breathing room.

I think by knowing them, they've helped me to become a stronger and healthier person. They've encouraged my growth in confidence, for one thing.

[Christy B]

One of the best friends I ever had was an ESTP. He was more like a brother than a friend actually. I was always in awe of the way he could command the spaces he entered, and so quickly make friends. For a while he and I hung out a lot together, we were each other's closest friends in the city we were living in and he always treated me like I was really special. In general he treated girls really well. I really had a special bond with him, where there was a deep mutual respect.

In this case I think each of us liked the other so much that it far outweighed any interrelationship conflicts or confusions. I just always saw that he was the wasy he was and that it was special and not in any way a danger to me or the way that I saw the world. Although, to me, his hidden agenda was quite appearant in that he would get quite depressed and act out in a way that I percieved and excessive. Maybe that is indicative of a conflict, but I am not sure.

More than a conflict between us I saw this as something that I should be able to fix in him. I wanted to show him how special he really was so that he would not get down on himself. Sometimes I was successful in this, although maybe not as successful as his dual could have been. This was a bit frustrating. I wish I could have made more of a difference in this area for him.

I never got tired of seeing him though, which I think is supposed to happen with your conflictor. I could have hung out with him 24/7 and never get bored of it! I really loved him.

[BLauritson]

I currently work with two ESEs. One of them I get along quite well with, the other one I'm quite wary of, although I'll get to that in a minute. The first one, we both know that we're different and have completely different lifestyles. We have some common interests such as music, which I think helps. I think we're careful with what we say so as not to offend eachother, although on the odd occasion one of us might slip up, although that seems to be rarer these days. He's also a very good listener for people that have problems of any sort, so I think that's another thing that's helped. I think it also helps that we mainly know eachother through work which is a more formal setting. I could see us having problems if say we lived together or something like that.

The second ESE, I think I'm wary of her more due to non-Socionics traits than anything else. She has a very explosive temper and often wants to be the centre of attention (or so it seems). She's annoyed quite a lot of people in our office, including the first ESE I mentioned, so like I say, I think it's down to non-Socionics traits.

Overall, I'm able to get along with people of most types really. I think Socionics has definitely assisted me in this respect, although saying that I remember back when I was in college one of my friends was ESE.. *shrug*. I think keeping a psychological distance is key with conflictors. If you can do that, there's no reason why you can't get on with them IMO (barring individual traits of course).

[leckysupport]

I find I appreciate their help and visa-versa, I was surprised when I couldn't help myself from helping out a EIE in a ST problem by how much she appreciated the help (I was expecting her to tell me to fuck off or something).

Due to the complete lack of the opposite elements we tend to need each other if there are no duals or activators around.

Some always want to create an intimidating image which is quite effective against me. But if I get the idea that they are incompetent in doing simple things I usually find I won't stop trying to damage them.

I imagine I would have difficulties if they happened to be really into creating anxiety, I've had very serious problems with LIEs exaggerating fears to get me to do stuff but they are more competent than EIEs in general.

I don't mind displays of from EIEs unless it's directed at me or they expect me to do something.

I think tcaudl and Jessica’s arguement(?) over tcaudl's abstract Left ideology is a perfect representation of how I clash with EIEs in political matters. They complain that I don't see the moral consequences of my actions; I say they don't understand how anything works and are unrealistic.

Politically EIEs also do a lot of things which irritate me that all NF types tend to do so I won't mention those.

[eunice]

Intertype relations don't exist imo. Any type has the capacity to rub me the wrong way, even ESTjs.

[XoX]

In theory one major problem with conflictors is that they don't respond/react to information and events in a way you would expect/hope them to. Thus if you try to close down the psychological distance you will face many obstacles which gradually reduce trust and psychological comfort. From a distance these obstacles may not be visible. Conflicting relations have fundamentally distant nature. I don't know if people here can confirm this theoretical hypothesis or not.

If you talk about open conflict then I guess relations such as contrary, super-ego or even semi-dual and mirror can have more open conflict.

[Expat]

I have had positive experiences with SEIs, especially at work, when we accept that we're different and that we have different interests and/or skills. It worked all right with a SEI boss I had for a brief time (perhaps that was the reason?); he was much better than I in talking to people and making things look nice, but he respected the way I could quickly become an "expert" in things that I knew nothing about (from the point of view of knowledge, not in working with my hands).

The negative experiences are related to the short-term volatility (but not all SEIs are like that) and their thinking that I'm being mean, unfriendly, or hostile when I go for talk rather than talk.

[XoX]

Intertype relations don't exist imo. Any type has the capacity to rub me the wrong way, even ESTjs.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense really. If you are just trying to say that individual characteristics dominate over type related characteristics then it is a more interesting argument. But if you think that socionics types exist then socionics intertype relations exist too. By definition.

[eunice]

Based on how niffweed nitpicks on a lot of things I have written and he once told me that I reminded him of phaedrus, I am not surprised that we are conflictors. But he is ok as a person though.

[Jarno]

The annoying part starts only when you are entitelt to have expectations from eachother. Like when in a romantical relationship.

It doesn't start with people you just see once in a while. At work it is sometimes annoying if you work close enough.

As in some conflict descriptions is clearly mentioned, in the beginning there is mutual attraction, the annoying part starts later, when you come depended on the other.

[aestrivex]

Based on how niffweed nitpicks on a lot of things I have written and he once told me that I reminded him of phaedrus, I am not surprised that we are conflictors. But he is ok as a person though.

you think i'm SLE?

[cracka]

you think i'm SLE?

yeah, I thought you were my conflictor?

As you once pointed out in some thread, somewhere I don't remember... something along the lines of "as conflictors we pretty much just stay away from eachother, entirely different interests and views, etc..."

[xyz]

What herzy said.

[tiny_dancer]

I haven't had any bad experiences with ISTjs - in fact there are a couple I get along quite well with. We don't step on each other's space, though, and I'm not offering them any serious life advice like you might do in a relationship. They're more work and group-based friendships. I'd probably drive them nuts in a relationship..

[Christy B]

Sorry UDP, I drifted into talking about one specific person rather than purely type traits. . .

I did the same thing. Oops.

[eunice]

you think i'm SLE?

I said it in jest when I mentioned that you are my conflictor. On the other hand, your opinions about my previous posts made me realize how been commented on weak Te (eg. mentioning stereotypes which mean nothing without realizing it) feels like.

[munenori2]

The ESTp's I know and I get on decently. We're just on different pages all the time though. Both are really raucous, but very in the moment. Neither seem to think too much of animals (that aren't their pets), which tends to bother me, but when they're in command I feel sort of like a boat to their tide. At parties though, that leaves work to me, as far as keeping things civil. They don't take no shit from nobody and sometimes it takes all I've got to smooth the ruffled feathers. The rest of times, 0_0.

[meatburger]

I think my dad and i have a true conflictor relationship. I have lived with him all my life. I think ive posted quite a bit about him before so i wont go overboard. He is just so quick to anger and so quick to make me want to retaliate. I could give you examples of interesting conflicts we have on a daily basis.

Like today he said "Theres potato salad in the fridge you can have it for lunch". I said great thanks and went to get it out. He then said "Dont overeat it". The tone with which he said it was just horrible, so snappy and angry it just boils my blood. Or the other day i had an itchy nose and was rubbing it and he just stared daggers at me. I got very angry and challenged him and he said he doesn't like "nervous movements". Hey im sure i do nervous movements but i was fucking itching my nose. The other day i closed a door normally and he flew around the corner "what was that?" in an elevated tone. I just said "i will show you" in a grumpy tone and i closed the door back and forward perfectly replicating the sound. He just walked off. That kind of thing. Endlessly.

Some how though, we handle it. We both dont hate each other. I think we both have quite thick skins now and after some little outburst we just wait an hour or so and re-make contact again. This morning he just started telling me about the sub prime lending problem and how it was affecting the Australian markets. He said to wait 4-6 months and it should be a good time to invest as shares will be cheap and the Superfunds will start moving their cash back into shares. I really enjoyed it. Once in a while we have a nice moment like that.

I might seem biased but i actually think LSI's are great people, him included. My dad has many admirable qualities. I can see why betas would and should love them.

[Kristiina]

Usually things are really okay until either of us starts expresssing their opinion. I believe that there is one correct answer to every problem. The ISTps usually say things like, "Well, the other answer is correct, but you can think what you want." or they say encouragingly, "you can have whatever delusions that you want." or they say, "I don't think I have any right to discourage your false beliefs." and I think, "jerk, you just did! And they're not false beliefs!".

They make me feel like my entire life philosophy is weak and wrong. I try to prove them wrong, but they politely tell me I have the right to believe whatever I want. But that just means I can't even justify myself. Like there's always a fight that we didn't have or a conflict that wasn't settled. The more we hang out, the more we get this. I used to find them intriguing, but now I have too much experience with SLI's. I found out I'm able to have cooperation with them and it's all good, but I have to keep the topics casual. This way I can avoid having those "conflicts that were never settled", which would affect the interaction horribly much.

e.g. my sister's ISTp husband casually called me a bimbo 5 years ago because he saw me in Fe-mood once. We get along very well now and it's all okay, but I sometimes feel tempted to casually tell him "...but I'm not a bimbo, right?". I know he would not give me the reassuring answer that I want, so I will not ask that.

Just for the record, if I would ask that from PotatoSpirit, he would tell me, "Yes you are" and I would say "HEEEEY, no I'm not!" and he would say, "hahaha". That would also be okay, so I'm not sure what SLIs do wrong.

[emeye]

e.g. my sister's ISTp husband casually called me a bimbo 5 years ago because he saw me in Fe-mood once. We get along very well now and it's all okay, but I sometimes feel tempted to casually tell him "...but I'm not a bimbo, right?". I know he would not give me the reassuring answer that I want, so I will not ask that.

Just for the record, if I would ask that from PotatoSpirit, he would tell me, "Yes you are" and I would say "HEEEEY, no I'm not!" and he would say, "hahaha". That would also be okay, so I'm not sure what SLIs do wrong.

Well, you ain't nearly blonde enough to be a bimbo, so there

[iAnnAu]

In theory one major problem with conflictors is that they don't respond/react to information and events in a way you would expect/hope them to. Thus if you try to close down the psychological distance you will face many obstacles which gradually reduce trust and psychological comfort. From a distance these obstacles may not be visible. Conflicting relations have fundamentally distant nature.

This sounds very much like the relationship I have with one of the parents who adopted my daughter. I visited them last month (that's a pic of her with me in the pics 08 thread), and learned that David's ENFJ (yes MBTT, but probably close enough).
I've noticed on several occasions that even when we're interested in the same things, we seem to be talking a different language about them. Also our expectations and observations of a situation are on completely different terms. David and I have never actually come into conflict, but there's an obvious gap between our IMs, and both of us seem kinda drained by trying to interact one-on-one.