Example of Quality Discussion

[vigilante]

Now, I really don't know about the other quadras -- but gamma is very frank about understanding and consistency. Maybe the other quadras do not enjoy articulating themselves into words the same way gamma does. (Is this even related to type? anyways... that's beside the point)

Risking my PoLR, I'd like to ask mature, confident, and self-aware members of beta to write similar articles for their own types.

Please see

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...er=asc&start=0

for an example about ILI.

[FDG]

ESTp: look at them once alluringly and then wait while they approach you invading your space
INFps: grab them by the dick, or butt if girls

I don't know if I am honest (ehm) or self-confident (more likely) but here goes what you gotta not do with me:

- try to control me, telling me what to do
- talk too much, especially in monologues
- be cold after the first contact. I'm not that good at evaluating what kind of relationship has developed so I prefer if the other party reacts well to me waving "hello"

[ScarlettLux]

Heh, so all an INFp has to do to attract an ESTp is to look at them alluringly

[idealistichick]

nice thread...does anyone know how to attract an istj?

[raisonpure]

So this is like a Do's and Don'ts thread?

In the past, I've managed to attract the attention of ESTps by:

- Beating one in racing games
- Intimidating them back (sadly, I've gotten so good at this that I frightened off one older ESTp)
- Wearing mismatched clothes that were either too childish or too old-fashioned
- Tripping over whiteboard stands and bumping into desks
- Responding with a put-down when a positive answer is solicited. Example:

ESTp: Want me to help you with your maths? :wink:
Me: ... How disgusting
ESTp: Wow, no one has ever called me disgusting before

- Playing music that clashed with his mood
- Flaunting my weaknesses, which prompts him to take over. Complain about inability to sweep floors or operate photocopiers confidently.
- Making the appearance of being a fun person to be around. An ESTp warmed up to me after he saw me chatting excitedly over the phone with my friend for more than 1 hour. He asked "You're quite the comedian, aren't you?" and became less hesitant to shower me with jokes after witnessing that I had a fun-loving side beneath the prim demeanour.

ESTp: look at them once alluringly and then wait while they approach you invading your space

In my case, ESTps seem to notice me before I notice them -- probably because of my conspicuous walk. I don't know if qualifies as an alluring look, though.

You neglected one step that precedes waiting: Darting towards the opposite direction and pretending you don't see them after they catch up on you, even if you can feel them prowling around you.

INFps: grab them by the dick, or butt if girls

How unromantic

Here's how you make an INFp feel like the Prey that he/she is:
1. Eye contact: amused gaze + smile + aura of self-control.
2. Stalk INFp slowly, encircling the environs like you own the place and everyone in it. The more self-control you exude, the more likely you are to stand out from the herd. Not sure if it applies to other INFps, but I'm very sensitive to the presence and movements of those who stand out because of the authoritative impression they give off.
3. PIN IT TO THE WALL! Or inspire anxiety by sitting or standing too close for its liking. Smile some more as you watch it lose its composure in awe and fear of your presence

[ScarlettLux]

LMFAO awesome post.

It's a wonder how you can so easily attract ESTps. I'll take some tips from you.

The INFp thing is pretty hilarious. It's really true for me, which makes me think I'm not so much an ENFj as I thought. I am such a pure victim. I love that self-control, forcefulness.. aggression.

[vague]

INFp do-s.

- Be straight-forward. When you approach, drop the formalities and address the INFp as though you've known them forever. We are not easily offended or weirded out -- we'll work with anything in a conversation.

-Do not interrupt. We will cease talking and revert into smile and nod mode.

-Be short and concise when you speak. Do not put us in a coma with drawn out rambles.

-Take us with a grain of salt. If you enter into a debate, do not become red-faced. We don't even stand behind our own points. We argue ideas that we don't necessarily believe to gain better understanding or to amuse ourselves, often at the expense of a frustrated party.

-Do not expect us to take much initiative or make decisions. Tell us how it’s going to be. Exert your authority. Go ahead, make us giddy.

It is near impossible not to get along with an INFp. If you somehow manage this, it is not the INFp that is to blame.

Edit: My use of "we" and "us" is inappropriate. I should not claim to speak for all INFps. These kind of presumptions are simply unacceptable. I am ashamed and will check my authorative tone at the door from now on.

[mustachio]

nice thread...does anyone know how to attract an istj?

not really but...

The Inspector does not trust the feelings of the others. Trying not to show it, he is sometimes courteous and agreeable in communication. But he quickly gets tired of such efforts and needs solitude, switching his attention to work. He likes a partner like The Mentor, who is capable of ardent expression of his feelings. Such behavior leaves no space for doubts. In this case The Inspector has only to watch that these feelings remain stable, and to take care of the one whom needs him so much. Feeling coldness from the side of others, he shrinks into himself, becomes inaccessible and touchy. He can keep this pain inside for a long time, and this may even result in quarrels for nothing, for reasons seemingly quite irrelevant to the real problem. The Mentor also needs emotional discharging and is quite capable of provoking quarrels

The Mentor is capable of emotionally influencing people, of inspiring them with his ideas. He 'calculates' in advance all the options of exiting a critical situation. He is a person with a spiritual nature and he constantly strives for self-development. This in fact saves The Inspector from falling into a rut, which is characteristic of him because of his wish to put everything in order and then to change nothing. The Mentor likes great undertakings but does not evaluate his forces. He needs The Inspector's advice on taking business actions, on economy and rationality in spending money, on the use and quality of things. He needs a person, who will share with him responsibility and help in overcoming all the difficulties he has taken upon himself. Nobody can do it as efficiently as his dual.

http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/index-rels.html

[raisonpure]

LMFAO awesome post.

It's a wonder how you can so easily attract ESTps. I'll take some tips from you.

The INFp thing is pretty hilarious. It's really true for me, which makes me think I'm not so much an ENFj as I thought. I am such a pure victim. I love that self-control, forcefulness.. aggression.

I assume the same would apply for ENFjs and other Victims -- I've read a similar account from an INTp, at least. Just don't overdo the bumping and tripping

Actually, I'm not that fond of Aggressor-Victim, even though it feels like Predator-Prey around the opposite sex. My smoother interactions with ESxps and ISxjs feel more like that of Master-Servant. I adore what Kristiina wrote in http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...=173805#173805 -- I'd be the maid, willingly slaving myself for her demands
I also love how my experiences coincide more and more with the following:

2. The "Aggressive" woman. Searches for object for the imperous and active erotic actions. Most of all she accepts the man which behaves with it obediently, but is whimsical. Then she has an occasion to aggression. Viktimnyj the man idolizes such woman and at the same time is rather afraid of her. Its behaviour can be compared to behaviour of the page which entirely devotes itself to service to " fine lady ". Constant game - the best medicine for satiation.

2.3. "Viktimnyj" the man. Idealizes vlasnuju the woman. It is arranged under its tastes, respects in it strong-willed qualities. In behaviour that emphasizes the dependence and poslushnost it is pulled out from under the control. In attitudes with the woman subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. Hå receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.

3. "Viktimnaja" the woman. Plays on the weakness, vulnerability or a disorganization, provoking thus Aggressive the man to active and resolute actions was able. In love games for it strong embraces and force of a man's body have the greatest value, conceding which she shows the humility to will of the man.

[hr:5d40f6bf62]
Moving onto the Do's... Here's how ESxps have won my admiration by 100 <3 points:

- Booming orders so loudly that the voice travels all the way to another room.

<ESFp enters the room, pissed. Approaches me slowly with a murderous look>
ESFp: YOU!... YOU HAVE SOME GUTS... (throws her bag onto the desk with a loud bang)
Me: ... (half frightened, half excited)
ESFp: THANKS TO THAT "SCENERY PATHWAY" OF YOURS... I WASTED MY TIME RIDING PAST IT, ONLY TO REALIZE THAT IT WAS 2 FREAKING TIMES LONGER THAN THE NORMAL ROUTE. AND YOUR MOTHER DIDN'T RESPOND WHEN I GOT TO YOUR HOUSE. I PRESSED THE DOORBELL FOR MORE THAN 20 BLOODY MINUTES, AND EVEN MATCHED THE DOORBELL TO THE PHONE'S RINGING. JUST YOU WAIT...
Me:
<ESFp stomps out of the room>

A few minutes later...

ESFp: RAISON! COME HERE!
<Me scampers into the other room>
Me: What are your orders!?
ESFp: WE'RE GOING OUT. NOW.
Me: YES, MY LADY!
<Me follows ESFp out into the streets, feeling shielded from thieves since they'd be more afraid of her than the other way around >

- Practicing reasonable intimidation and not backing away when I glare back, which would be cowardly.

- Being loud in general. Getting into playful and harmless scuffles, which makes me wonder how it would feel if I were subjected to that force... And of being pinned down to the floor

- Taking away burdens by taking over for me when I'm fumbling with photocopiers and mops.

- Requests don't always work, especially if they're coming from someone whose Se is lacking. I warm up to people more easily when they command me to do things without sugarcoating them with niceties -- as long as they are immediately doable.

<ESFp walks into the room, looking at me expectantly>
Me: (clears away the desk and pulls out chair for her to sit)
ESFp: Thanks. I have another task for you to complete today!
Me: Yes?
ESFp: I need you to help me translate some phrases.
Me: Let me at it!

[ScarlettLux]

Wow, that's a bit odd, raisonpure but very amusing to read. I don't really relate to the whole Master-Servant thing you've talked about though - for me, it's more of a Predator-Prey thing. Except the Prey isn't scared, it's delighting in the aggression and initiative that the Predator shows. I have this secret thrill when people (males, *cough*) are controlling, especially in sexual matters ... and even beyond that, when they can just decide - OKAY, THIS IS WHERE WE ARE GOING, COME ON! And I smile submissively ... I almost equate my actions with that of a Lolita type.

I'd like to bait and make the Aggressor crazy with desire. I really enjoy the feeling of wondering just what and how much a person could do to me - that's Ni/Se for you right there.

What I find odd is the whole ENFj - ISTj, OR even more the ENTj - ISFj Aggressor-Victim pairing. It seems as if these two extraverts are quite decisive and goal-oriented in every other facet of life except for in regards to relationships where they behave submissively.

[vigilante]

INFp do-s.

- Be straight-forward. When you approach, drop the formalities and address the INFp as though you've known them forever. We are not easily offended or weirded out -- we'll work with anything in a conversation.

-Be short and concise when you speak. Do not put us in a coma with drawn out rambles.

-Take us with a grain of salt. If you enter into a debate, do not become red-faced. We don't even stand behind our own points. We argue ideas that we don't necessarily believe to gain better understanding or to amuse ourselves, often at the expense of a frustrated party.

-Do not expect us to take much initiative or make decisions. Tell us how it’s going to be. Exert your authority. Go ahead, make us giddy.

These apply to ILI perfectly well.


ILI's have a habit of experimenting with lots of different kinds of ideas. For example, we will zealously defend ideas that we do not believe in for the sake of argument, for the sake of logical consistency in our understanding, and for the sake of understanding the issues at hand. We enjoy arguments of a hypothetical nature. I believe that you have just verified that you do indeed enjoy the version. Could you elaborate further with concrete examples?

[vague]

These apply to ILI perfectly well.


ILI's have a habit of experimenting with lots of different kinds of ideas. For example, we will zealously defend ideas that we do not believe in for the sake of argument, for the sake of logical consistency in our understanding, and for the sake of understanding the issues at hand. We enjoy arguments of a hypothetical nature. I believe that you have just verified that you do indeed enjoy the version. Could you elaborate further with concrete examples?

As you have described, I enjoy experimenting with Te concepts and dissecting people's Ti systems. While I am interested in gaining a better understanding of the concepts being debated, I also have an underlying interest in how it relates to the person’s outlook on life. Whether their outlook is logical/realistic doesn’t interest me so much as I’m more curious as to how others view the world. I'm fascinated with all the novel ways people interpret reality. INTps seem more focused on exchanging information about a concept and less interested in how it relates to the person’s subjective outlook on life.

[FDG]

- Booming orders so loudly that the voice travels all the way to another room.


- Being loud in general.

lol, i find it hard but heartening to believe that somebody actually likes this ahahhaa although you're obviously exaggerating it .P

I'd like to bait and make the Aggressor crazy with desire. I really enjoy the feeling of wondering just what and how much a person could do to me - that's Ni/Se for you right there.

we don't enjoy it. we get road rages, smash doors and go exercising for 343432 hours. which, i guess, is what you want.

[raisonpure]

- Booming orders so loudly that the voice travels all the way to another room.


- Being loud in general.

lol, i find it hard but heartening to believe that somebody actually likes this ahahhaa although you're obviously exaggerating it .P

I wasn't exaggerating

I'm drawn to people who can laugh for 3+ minutes non-stop for everyone to hear. At least, they have no right to chastise me when I let out my loud side.

I'd like to bait and make the Aggressor crazy with desire. I really enjoy the feeling of wondering just what and how much a person could do to me - that's Ni/Se for you right there.

we don't enjoy it. we get road rages, smash doors and go exercising for 343432 hours. which, i guess, is what you want.

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who finds the tumultuous aspect of ESFp/INFp duality unappealing. I find it puzzling how anyone would want to subject themselves to fury -- especially that of ESTps. Just looking at one waving a knife around fills me with dread

At the risk of sounding like a Delta hippie... Peace and <3!

@vague: Thank you I was wondering when someone was going to bring up my aversion to Fe. Let's just say that it's a sad mistake of nature... To involuntarily frighten ESTps away by looking at them like this:

When I'm INFp at heart... As long as you turn a blind eye to the repressed Fe o_-

[raisonpure]

How best to have a quality discussion with me:

Let me tap into your subconscious and bring it to the forefront: Share your dreams! Interpreting them, relating them to your values, and connecting them to other ideas stimulates my and to no end, and provides me with insight into your personality. Urge me to view a scene in my dream from multiple angles; probe the motives for the actions I took in my dreams, and it all corresponds to reality. I'll be grateful to you for helping me uncover heretofore unseen meanings.

What you shouldn't do:

Dismiss something that I say because "it's a non sequitur" or "it's like dividing a number by 0". If you want to do so, argue its infeasibility, not its theoretical impossibility. Or you will go down in my memory as a selfish moron who's incapable of adapting your language to the audience.

Pry. Don't ask me where I live, what my parents do for a living, or where they work at. Stick to the task at hand. If I don't tell you where I come from the first time, don't repeat the question. I will be annoyed at those who inquire too much into what I deem irrelevant. An ESTp once made the mistake of tactlessly asking the above questions in a succession, which made me suspect his motives for asking them. Unable to trust him, I broke off further contact immediately afterwards.

Force me to set long-term goals, since they are nearly unattainable in that they are always subject to change. A lecture on persevering towards goals is likely to remind me of Ecclesiastes, which could lead to an emotional breakdown. I'm not immune to threatening others with violence once I've lost control over my emotions. Not a pleasant sight.

Accuse me of wasting my life -- things could get very ugly. Expect to be ignored completely until you show remorse for imposing your values on me. Inquire into my beliefs and provide me with different world views, but do not force me to accept them. I would do the same for you.

Give me a sermon on my past mistakes, or a list of all my flaws. Instead, give advice on how I can do better in the future.

Criticize my appearance and inability to look after myself. Show concern and help me out. Refrain from using the word "rot".

Call me a "bitch", unless we are familiar enough that I can brush it off as a joke.

Suddenly announce that you hate me without explaining why. Actually, don't even explain why. I don't want to hear it. If there's no hope for understanding between us, don't bother talking to me at all.

Ask for feedback on a theory or work of yours that has no relevance to day-to-day life. I'm more likely to remain silent than flatter you with compliments on something I can't relate to.

Ask me the sort of questions that you'd find in Logic quizzes. I feel uncomfortable when my intelligence is being put to the test like that.

[vigilante]

Ask for feedback on a theory or work of yours that has no relevance to day-to-day life. I'm more likely to remain silent than flatter you with compliments on something I can't relate to.

Can you talk a little more about relevance and give some examples? Or does this very question violate the 'rule'?

[raisonpure]

Ask for feedback on a theory or work of yours that has no relevance to day-to-day life. I'm more likely to remain silent than flatter you with compliments on something I can't relate to.

Can you talk a little more about relevance and give some examples? Or does this very question violate the 'rule'?

No, it does not, since I knew what I was talking about when I wrote that. The problem arises when I have to go beyond my comfort zone and rapidly extend my knowledge base in order to accomplish something.

Let's assume that A is a university student, and has just completed a paper on Ancient Egypt. She shows it off to me, a Psychology major, and asks me to criticize it. I don't know a thing about Ancient Egypt's religions, politics, important figures and events. I feel compelled to learn everything about Ancient Egypt in order to provide adequate criticism. The problem is that such knowledge has little application in my everyday life, so I have neither the sufficient time nor interest to embark on an information sponging quest. Faced with something that I don't know and don't care to know, I am unable to criticize A's paper for historical inaccuracy. My remaining options are to criticize it for spelling and grammatical errors OR contradictions and unsound reasoning so that I can look smart, but that's strenuous. Or I can admit ignorance and save face by complimenting A's erudition, asking to be enlightened -- too much pretension, time, and effort for something I don't need. So I remain silent, since it's the most comfortable way to conceal my ignorance.

So, my definition of "irrelevant" is: that which necessitates me to go that extra mile just to meet a requirement, even if it is not in my interests to attain and keep the knowledge. And because the process is very stressful, sometimes I just give into the pressure, ignore the requirement, and remain where I am. Then I rationalize my dereliction by blaming it on my memory: "Oh, I'll forget it anyway". Do you know what I fear most? Forgetting. To learn and to master -- only to have everything rust away with the passage of time. Once, my ESTj teacher hit my PoLR by reminding me of this painful cycle. When he told me to memorize some formulas, I cried that I couldn't because "I used to be good at this, but I've forgotten it all. Memorization won't work!"

To which he replied: "Relearn and remaster, then. Everyone forgets and goes back to accumulate from square one."

But I was overwhelmed by the futility of climbing up a tree, only to fall off of the branches once they snapped... over and over again. I lost all motivation to study. I tried to do as he said, but I couldn't, and his pestering eventually pushed me past the edge of control.

So that's one very important rule: Don't remind me of the futility of effort.

By the way, my lack of confidence in my retention also manifests itself in frequent use of superfluous phrases like "if I remember correctly..." or "if memory serves me correct..."

Hopefully that provided you with a satisfactory glimpse of Te PoLR and how you can avoid hitting it.

[FDG]

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who finds the tumultuous aspect of ESFp/INFp duality unappealing. I find it puzzling how anyone would want to subject themselves to fury -- especially that of ESTps. Just looking at one waving a knife around fills me with dread

If the indecision is due to the INFp's uncertainty in action or the ESTp's uncertainity in feelings, then it's okay, but if it's done with the purpose of enticing a response, I become furious.

Other ways to get on my neves:

- use lots of roundabouts when saying things instead of just stating what needs to get done, like when people say "hheeey fabie my old dear friend blah blah blah could you do X" instead of just "could you do X"
- attempts at "motivating" me like i don't trust myself. Thank you i know what i can and cannot do, if i am not doing it there's a motivation, if i am doing it too
- compliment me on some quality related to Se or Ti like "you're good at sports" or "you're smart" or some shit like that. i won't really even reply to that because it's not something i like to be complimented about. make me blush by saying that i am sensitive, that is better. Generally I don't take compliments that well. I see many ExFjs that "encourage" people when they are doing well. That usually makes me stop.
- giving me control of a task while trying to retain some control over it. either you make me do it, or you do it yourself, okay? instructions are not allowed.
- using those techinques listed in "how to influence people and win friends" like, always calling me by name etc etc...I can enjoy it if you're a girl , but if you're a male god damn, be fucking blunt and swear as how every male should be, and do.

[raisonpure]

Thanks for reminding me of another rule, FDG.

Although it is said that the INFps is "the diplomat, instead of the fighter", I myself am prone to unbecoming aggression once I'm blinded by rage. To illustrate just how ugly things can get, I shall elaborate on what happened after my teacher pushed me over the edge of control and into an existential depression: I sobbed for 2-3 hours. I barked "what are you looking at!?" to my students because they walked past me with a smile and perched themselves on an adjacent staircase, as if they were sneering at a hideous beast in a circus -- which was exactly what I felt like. I still felt like shit after an hour of trying not to cry, so I tried to vent out my frustration by kicking the wall and stomping the floor. Then I was filled with humiliation and anger at the uncharacteristic behaviour when I remembered that I had an audience nearby. Just when I thought I had gained control of myself, I burst into tears when I couldn't find my pencil. Thirsting for revenge, I did something that I immediately regretted: I challenged my teacher to a fight right in front of my students -- and I can't think of anything more hideous than a 17 y.o. girl yelling "LET'S RESOLVE THIS WITH A FIGHT! YOU'RE MISTAKEN IF YOU THINK I DON'T HAVE THE GUTS FOR IT!" to her middle aged teacher. Afraid of what was happening to me, I requested to leave before things could get any uglier. Fortunately, my teacher gave me permission to leave -- probably realizing at last that I was out of sorts -- and I was only able to calm down after talking to my sympathetic friend, who declared "I wish I could across over the ocean and teach that teacher a good lesson! I hate him already!"

Too much damage had already been done, however. I felt like I had lost the right to exert authority over my students: after all, if I could not be trusted to keep myself from being violent towards someone over 30, what was to stop me from lashing out on my students? I didn't know how to face them after that, and I started distancing myself from my teacher out of the fear that he would make me break down again -- nowadays we only argue about values when it's over trivial topics like "is porn bad?" And I've feared this side to me ever since I grew out the habit of fighting with my mother, since humiliating memories like these are engraved in the Hall of Shame for every time that the monster is let loose. And they are not without their enduring consequences.

So if you can't offer solace when I'm riled, stay the hell away from me and leave me be. Don't linger around like you're mocking my discomposure. Don't tell me that I'm weak for overreacting to something insignificant, and then advise me to follow your happy-go-lucky and forgetful example (thanks for making me feel 10x shittier, Ma). Just as you wouldn't expect a screaming lunatic to be sane, don't expect me to have any control over my actions. It's best if I'm dragged away from people in such times, even.