Some possible famous/celebrity LIEs-ENTjs (reboot)

[MrsTortilla]

Conan O'Brien and Brzezinski even VI similarly in those pictures

Ummm hmm! this could partially explain my attraction to Conan O'Brien.

[eunice]

Lee Kuan Yew politician

*"Even from my sick bed, even if you are going to lower me into the grave and I feel something is going wrong, I will get up."

*"In a different world we need to find a niche for ourselves, little corners where in spite of our small size we can perform a role which will be useful to the world. To do that, you will need people at the top, decision-makers who have got foresight, good minds, who are open to ideas, who can seize opportunities like we did... My job really was to find my successors. I found them, they are there; their job is to find their successors. So there must be this continuous renewal of talented, dedicated, honest, able people who will do things not for themselves but for their people and for their country. If they can do that, they will carry on for another one generation and so it goes on. The moment that breaks, it's gone."

* once quoted as saying he preferred to be feared than loved. Adamant that the ends justify the means, Lee often prescribed repressive measures to safeguard national security and interests.

[Kill4Me]

David Parker Ray...LIE-Ni 8w9 sp/sx







https://www.pinterest.com/socionics/lie-ni/

[nifl]

Lee Kuan Yew politician

*"Even from my sick bed, even if you are going to lower me into the grave and I feel something is going wrong, I will get up."

*"In a different world we need to find a niche for ourselves, little corners where in spite of our small size we can perform a role which will be useful to the world. To do that, you will need people at the top, decision-makers who have got foresight, good minds, who are open to ideas, who can seize opportunities like we did... My job really was to find my successors. I found them, they are there; their job is to find their successors. So there must be this continuous renewal of talented, dedicated, honest, able people who will do things not for themselves but for their people and for their country. If they can do that, they will carry on for another one generation and so it goes on. The moment that breaks, it's gone."

* once quoted as saying he preferred to be feared than loved. Adamant that the ends justify the means, Lee often prescribed repressive measures to safeguard national security and interests.

thought about SLE for him

[Expat]

I always saw Lee Kuan Yew as ISTj rather than ENTj.

[Mea]

I always saw Lee Kuan Yew as ISTj rather than ENTj.

I totally agree with this. The way he freaking controls the people and the country.

[Exodus]

Conan O'Brien

EDIT: Which is odd, because I find his jokes somewhat annoying. Heh.

I think he's ENTp. FWIW.

[Expat]

Pim Fortuyn, Dutch politician (murdered)





Jor-El in the first Superman movies

[aut0]

Augustus, first Roman Emperor

Could you post your reasons why you believe Augustus to be ENTj? Reading through his history of how he maneuvered in politics and handled his foes, he did things as I would do them (as an INTj), with ruthless efficiency, he didn't come off ENTJ to me, but I'll readily admit I haven't been around socionics as long as you. He always came off as an action speaks louder than words kind of man.

[Expat]

Could you post your reasons why you believe Augustus to be ENTj? Reading through his history of how he maneuvered in politics and handled his foes, he did things as I would do them (as an INTj), with ruthless efficiency, he didn't come off ENTJ to me, but I'll readily admit I haven't been around socionics as long as you. He always came off as an action speaks louder than words kind of man.

Please tell me why the bits I highlighted are inconsistent with your idea of what an ENTj is.

[aut0]

Could you post your reasons why you believe Augustus to be ENTj? Reading through his history of how he maneuvered in politics and handled his foes, he did things as I would do them (as an INTj), with ruthless efficiency, he didn't come off ENTJ to me, but I'll readily admit I haven't been around socionics as long as you. He always came off as an action speaks louder than words kind of man.

Please tell me why the bits I highlighted are inconsistent with your idea of what an ENTj is.

Reading the physical description of an ENTj, they come off as loud;

ENTjs like to joke and play tricks on others. When talking about matters of a sexual nature, they often employ double entendres in a humorous manner. ENTjs have tendency to lace their jokes with sarcasm and irony. During conversation they may suddenly interrupt the speaker with comments that others find very funny, whereas the speaker can feel embarrassed. ENTjs talk a lot, and with their ability to create double meaning humour, they are not rare among comedians.

Augustus was noted as being extremely serious, even as a young man. It doesn't coincide with that of an ENTj who's described as being loud, and a joker.

The action speaks louder than words is really referring to my initial point, it really didn't need to be there but I didn't proof read my post

Sometimes they can even show delinquency, bullying and aggressive behaviour. They are very quick tempered often trying to solve their problem with their fists first

Granted no one has day to day journals of Augustus' everyday behavior, but Augustus being described as a 'sickly' young man doesn't coincide with that of an ENTj who can be aggressive and bullying, again I do recognize that it says 'sometimes' so I can see that I can possibly be wrong on this.

I do have a personal interest in Augustus being a INTj though, I've read through a lot of his history and see a lot of myself in him, where as I see little to nothing of myself in an ENTj. It can be that I'm only seeing what I want to see, but I'm certain that he's not an ENTj, which is why I wanted to find out what made him stand out as an ENTj to you, someone who's been around socionics much longer than I have.

Thanks

[Expat]

but I'm certain that he's not an ENTj, which is why I wanted to find out what made him stand out as an ENTj to you, someone who's been around socionics much longer than I have.

The answer to your question is obvious. You do not really understand what true ENTjs are like; those bits quoted from Ganin's site do not reflect the essence of an ENTj's motivations or behavior. I suggest you read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's descriptions in the Articles subforum here - at least to broaden your view of the type.

Also, Augustus's being physically"sickly" as a young man - and yet acting with lightning daring, even recklessness, when Caesar was murdered - and having, yes, to make lots of speeches on the street and in the Senate - rather confirms that he was ENTj, even given your apparent misconception of the type, does it not? Being "sickly" is not type-related; being proactive to anticipate your enemies is more likely to be.

[aut0]

but I'm certain that he's not an ENTj, which is why I wanted to find out what made him stand out as an ENTj to you, someone who's been around socionics much longer than I have.

The answer to your question is obvious. You do not really understand what true ENTjs are like; those bits quoted from Ganin's site do not reflect the essence of an ENTj's motivations or behavior. I suggest you read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's descriptions in the Articles subforum here - at least to broaden your view of the type.

Also, Augustus's being physically"sickly" as a young man - and yet acting with lightning daring, even recklessness, when Caesar was murdered - and having, yes, to make lots of speeches on the street and in the Senate - rather confirms that he was ENTj, even given your apparent misconception of the type, does it not? Being "sickly" is not type-related; being proactive to anticipate your enemies is more likely to be.

You could be right, I haven't read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's so I'll read those first

EDIT:

I can see how Augustus having to give speeches being an ENTj thing (as it's part of their natural behavior), and that social situations are an INTj's weak point. But I don't think it's hard to believe that an INTj can seek out to fix his weakness;. But this is me speculating so it can't be proved either way, it'd be a moot argument.

I read through Stratiyevskaya's description and agree that there are good points to Augustus being an ENTj;

The ENTj generally painfully survives negative emotions from the side of those surrounding. For example, when they demonstrate offence, irritation, hostility, antipathy to him. He cannot stand it, when hysterics are arranged, they provoke jealousy or scandal. This frightens him. The ENTj, with external alertness and [--], is nevertheless friendly, peaceful and ivery benevolent.

This confuses me because Augustus wasn't known for being 'friendly'.

ENTjs are not inclined to the abuse of authority. Moreover, they cannot even obey severe or wrong ( in their opinion) orders. At their own risk they will not adhere to inhumane instructions.

This makes sense (in the sense that Augustus deep down wanted to do good), except that Augustus and Marc Anthony murdered all their enemies in the Senate and distributed the property and wealth among their own soldiers. This is what I was referring to as being ruthlessly efficient, then again this type of thinking probably isn't limited to an INTj, but it is how I think.

The ENTj seeks the the role of leader and wonderfully it manages with the pleasure. The greater the authorities obtains the ENTj, the more he is activated and the more successful he works.

I can see how this works, but how is this limited to an ENTj? I don't think it's illogical to believe that with more power, you have more freedom to instill change to fit with your vision, or maybe I'm close minded on this.

I do see a lot more reasons why Augustus could be ENTj, but I'm still not convinced, especially not on the speeches, and being 'brave' alone.

Ok going further with this is going to require way more input than I'm interested in putting in, I'm going to settle for letting bygones be bygones .

[astralsilky]

Jodie Foster

Whoah, good call!

[hr:2fec7bf818]

What about:

Sarah Roemer (from Disturbia)



Kate Moss

[eunice]

@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.

Anyway, it didn't occur to me that Kate Moss might be LIE. She seems to be an irrational and I thought she could be SLI.

[Expat]

@aut0: I think you're going about this the wrong way, with understanding both ENTjs and Augustus. As for his being "friendly" you might want to read Suetonius's short biography of him, easily available online. Anyway, the way to go is not by comparing isolated items of descriptions of a type with isolated items of a person's external behavior. The way to go is to try to understand what makes the type tick, in terms of deeper motivations and what makes them behave the way they do; and then see if that fits the person you are trying to type. Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

[astralsilky]

@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.

Anyway, it didn't occur to me that Kate Moss might be LIE. She seems to be an irrational and I thought she could be SLI.

SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.

Last week on tv I saw Kate Moss in motion for the first time, and she struck me as possibly being ENTj. I haven't id'd many famous ENTj women, so these waters are a bit unfamiliar and I'm seeking validation. Anyway, I can seem some facial expressions in Kate's online pix that I've seen in a couple male ENTjs I've known a long time. And, her energies appear to fit the ENTj sketches I concocted over time, but admittedly these can be elusive and are still under development - (i.e., refinement).

The only other potential ENTj woman I have to propose for now is Eileen Brennan. All three are reasonable guesses, to some degree or another. I won't be dogmatic about it.

What's your type, eunice?

[FDG]

Kate Moss is more likely ENFj if we have to choose a Ni type.

[astralsilky]

Kate Moss is more likely ENFj if we have to choose a Ni type.

Why?

[eunice]

Anyway, it didn't occur to me that Kate Moss might be LIE. She seems to be an irrational and I thought she could be SLI.

SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.

What's your type, eunice?

I don't know much about Kate Moss, except from the negative reports about her getting into rehab. I find it hard to type models since there are usually not much info about their personalities and interests. Perhaps her past relationship with Johnny Depp (IEI?) could provide some insights into her type?

Anyway, I am IEI.

[misutii]

Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol

Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.

Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.

I have Suetonius' book right here and haven't read it in a while so will take this as a chance to brush up (citations on important points included) All these points, in the big picture, point towards INTj vs. ENTj

10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)

16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders

17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically

23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"

25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"

33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.

53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.

66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever

68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.

72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world

93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.

76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)

He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.

Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.

Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.

You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.

---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

[discojoe]

Caesar always seemed like a good tactician but a poor long range strategist, which could point to ISTj.

[implied]

kate moss is interesting. i've seen her typed as ILI on some other boards, but i'm not entirely willing to type female INTps. i think she comes off as a dynamic type as well. she seems to have the innate ability to get herself into shit like many types with in the ego block. addendum: sometimes she reminds me of my sister who i think could be ENFj. but something there is a little different.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XInXQGqxu-0[/youtube]

[tempral]

She seems like an ENFj. She seems like a Fe ego type. She is very emotional and gets excited rather easily.

[implied]

She seems like an ENFj. She seems like a Fe ego type. She is very emotional and gets excited rather easily.

my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like -EJ image focused?

[Creepy-bg]

she's hot and has nice nipples ...

[astralsilky]

I don't know much about Kate Moss, except from the negative reports about her getting into rehab. I find it hard to type models since there are usually not much info about their personalities and interests. Perhaps her past relationship with Johnny Depp (IEI?) could provide some insights into her type?

Johnny Depp looks S. Maybe SEI (conflicting) or SEE (activity). Would have to study him a little.

As for Kate Moss' real life, heh, I know little about the personalities and interests of most celebrities. But people are complicated. Someone could be manifesting and identifying "deeper" functions at any given time, for any number of reasons. Sometimes one can develop so much, or get hung up on developing certain functions, that their original ones may seem obscured ... but they're still there, at the root. I like going by V.I.

I'd like to suggest another ENTj: Katherine Hepburn. She's some featured star of the month on TCM (USA). I've watched her and Cary Grant in two different movies now, the last two evenings. (Dang, how many films have they done together?!) Never her saw in motion before. What an intriguing persona! Cary is most certainly ESFp. So if she is ENTj ... well, that would account for their energy together in these films. Activity, indeed. But I could be wrong about her. I see similarities between her, Kate Moss, and Jodie Foster. Yeah, ENFj is a temptation. I saw Katherine typed as such on another site. But she's not quite it. The energy I see much better matches ENTj. It's interesting to consider how she manifests the "female" role - the emotionality, etc. It seems odd, on her. No doubt, the social roles and expectations for women in her time had a large impact on the qualities she'd manifest in films. See, there are always mitigating factors. Were she an actress today, I could easily see her take on some tough-minded leadership roles instead. I've seen some of these tendencies subtly manifest even in these couple of movies.

OK, here she is!




Ohh, they're describing her on TV now - "she bucked the system" - "wore pants" - "relentless and tough in her demands of other actors" - "knew who she was" - "she could do it all" ... ah HAaaaaaaa ... and then, they mention her extraordinary on-screen chemistry with Spencer Tracy. OK, I *WANT* to just say, "yeah! obviously an ISFj!" so I'll leave that up to the reader to decide for his/herself.

LOL, now they're showing an interview of her on TV, in her later years - she's telling everyone what to do! As I watch the "real" her in action - yup, her energy is totally ENTj.

[astralsilky]

She seems like an ENFj. She seems like a Fe ego type. She is very emotional and gets excited rather easily.

my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like -EJ image focused?

Yeah. From what little I've seen of her, #1) she doesn't V.I. like an ENFj at all (HEH HEH), #2) she doesn't strike me as the type who is all-concerned about "propriety in lieu of idealized social relations" ... which seems normative for ENFjs. On the contrary, it seems she'd have more of a "here I am, take-it-or-leave-it" perspective regarding the public's opinion of her and her personal ethics (whatever they may be). ENFjs appear so group-socially conscientious. When I saw Kate on TV at some department store shindig as some new fashion line of hers was being unveiled, and she hobnobbed among the mannequins in the store windows as the public looked on from the streets, she seemed to be caught up in her own world of ideas rather than concerned about any kind of public reaction. It's like it wouldn't even matter whether the crowd was there or not. But that was just in a brief clip.

Wish I could see the video! I'm visiting with a relative who's got terribly slow dial-up, so there's no point in attempting to run that clip for now. It's hard enough posting! Maybe in a week.

[aestrivex]

rick has katherine hepburn and spencer tracy typed as IEE-SLI pair.

i don't know a thing about either of them.

[astralsilky]

More ENTjs

Orlando Bloom



Ioan Gruffudd



(Compare with Peter Sellers ~ there ya go, the projected Pink Panther - an ENTj caricature.)

And as asserted on www.socionics.com, I affirm

Robert Downey Jr.



And even though he was proposed as ENTp on another site, the following fellow v.i.'s just like two people I've known well for years in terms of eyes and facial expressions more than physical features. One tests ENTj, the other ESTj - and they both very well could be ENTj, as both manifest ENTj behavior. This celeb does NOT v.i. like the ENTp's I've known, who clearly test so and manifest clear ENTp behavior. So I'll risk the suggestion ... here he is!!!

Jeff Goldblum



[hr:3844817935]

Mmmmm, now THERE's a zesty little list.

[FDG]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

I agree on Goldblum, too. He looks like another ENTj professor I've recently took a class of.

Orlando Bloom always had an F vibe to me.

[implied]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far (i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.) actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

[Expat]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

[implied]

Come on implied, look at the number of male ESFps I included in my thread. As for female ENTjs, I have more difficulty spotting them but I also included a few here.

you do, as well! and i do appreciate your efforts. i really do just think it's difficult to do since the F/T line blurs so much with ISXjs and ENXjs (like segolene royal and how a few people thought she might be ISFj based on god knows what, the fact that she isn't super masculine?) i just think an ISTj woman would be perceivably more -ish, like an ENFj almost, and would probably take on that role somewhat, which seems easy to explain. same thing with jodie foster and the "why isn't she ISFj?" bits. reading a bit about her made ENTj more likely than ISFj, although she's still quite feminine and what not.

[eunice]

I have to say that astrasilky is really good at VI-ing people.

[astralsilky]

Yes Katherine Hepburn! She looks exactly like an ENTj teacher I had in high school. Good typing.

no joke! she really does have quite the look.

i'm really quite impressed with some of your typings so far

Thank you for your confirmations, guys! (Eunice, too!) It's very encouraging. I've studied this a lot, but on my own, without much outside validation 'til now.

(i especially like that you have included so many male ESFps/female ENTjs. this is one thing that i think has been missing from this site--people are too quick to put the F=female, T=male category on everyone, especially tricky in gamma sometimes.)

I totally agree - especially for other sites - hence, my attempts thus far.

actually very interested in seeing what you come up with in the INTp section. :wink:

:wink:

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

[aestrivex]

Yeah, that one meandered and needs some actual INTp additions. I've started a new one. Working on more suggestions. But I need to cross-check 'em using some quirky homegrown methods I've developed and refined over time. And watch even more movies and TV for input - sigh - (things I rarely do). It's hard to comment on some others contributions when I don't even know who in the heck many of these people are.

why would you need to know who we are to evaluate our contributions?


or are you referring to the people being typed...?

[Exodus]

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Wouldn't he have to be some Fe type?

"There was nothing he liked so much as flattery, or, to put it more plainly, adulation; the coarser and clumsier it was, the more he relished it ... His vanity, which was perpetually nourished–for even preachers used to praise him to his face from the pulpit–was the cause of the aggrandisement of his Ministers."

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like he valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

[Expat]

I really, really doubt that Kate Moss is ENTj. I think INFp is likely.

Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.

I disagree. Appearance = reality.

That's a very sweeping statement, I can't agree with it.

Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol

I really don't think ENTj is the best type for Newton.

Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.

1) Your point about Caesar being more concerned about his reputation than with efficiency is not borne out by historical evidence
2) He did not "get away" with breaking traditions - he was murdered for that; and that is really not an argument for ESFp>ENTj.

Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.

I am extremely familiar with Roman history, and that is why I see that he was more likely ENTj.

10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)

A devotion to duty may be Ti or Fi, depending on the motivations for said duty. In Augustus's case, it was about destroying Caesar's murderers. He also banished his own daughter Julia - his only child - for adultery, as well as, later, Julia's daughter, for the same reason. That is more Fi than Ti. The Ti = duty is more of a ISTj Fi role thing.

16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders

He was often sea-sick. Not type related.

17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically

That was Antony's political weak point. What does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj?

23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"

Same question - what does that have to do with being INTj instead of ENTj? That theatrical behavior - if reported correctly - does not sound ENTj, but neither does it sound INTj. As for not attempting to reconquer Germania, he had lost 3 legions and decided that, strategically, it made no sense. So why is that an argument for INTj and against ENTj?

25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"

Same question - do you think that ENTjs would praise recklessness?

33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.

Being a judge was part of his job description; his focus on the family morals could be seen as either Ti or Fi.

53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.

That sounds like a dislike for Fe, which is an argument for ENTj.

66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever

Which is a Fi>Fe characteristic, especially Fe role, and also characteristic of ENTjs and actually of the Gamma quadra generally (ESFps make acquaintances easily, not necessarily friends).

68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.

A lot of ENTjs are adverse to physical activity, and Augustus was physically fragile. Also, that was a political insult, not necessarily how most people perceived him.

72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world

Which shows little regard for Si and Fe. Excellent argument for ENTj.

93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.

It can be interpreted in many ways.

76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)

Again, that is an excellent point for ENTj, little concern for Si and Fe. As for your comment on "extroverts", you are going for MBTI definition of "extroversion", not Socionics. ENTjs dislike Fe social occasions.

He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.

First, this is incorrect since he did expand the empire -- a lot. Second, to realize that expansion should stop can be Se, or Te, or lots of other things.

Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.

Yes and all of that suggests Fi of the Gamma sort. Again ENTj.

Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.

In a public figure, expected to appear personally in the Senate etc, it's not easy to hide sickliness.

You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj

No, I mentioned that because someone said that he disliked giving speeches, acted behind the scenes, etc. I was just disproving that point. It's not necessarily an argument for ENTj as such.

so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.

Then let's go to Tacitus instead:

13.3 : The dictator Caesar rivalled the greatest orators, and Augustus had an easy and fluent way of speaking, such as became a sovereign. Tiberius too thoroughly understood the art of balancing words, and was sometimes forcible in the expression of his thoughts, or else intentionally obscure. Even Caius Caesar's disordered intellect did not wholly mar his faculty of speech. Nor did Claudius, when he spoke with preparation, lack elegance.

Anyway, Bill Gates is ENTj and he does not have particularly good public speaking skills, so it's not really an useful discussion.

---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France

Then I suggest that revise your understanding of what an ENTj is, such as the notion that ENTjs are necessarily "extroverted" in the social-outgoing definition as in MBTI.

Louis XIV: That guy was all Fe and Se with zero Ni. Nothing at all ENTj about him. No ENTj, I daresay, would have built Versailles and set up a system where he had to get up, and go to sleep, at precisely the same hour every day, and have his meals in public.

What makes ENTj a likely type for Augustus, much more so than those individual traits you listed, is the following global charateristics:

- he always took a long-term vision in pursuing his goals, which he did relentlessly - that's a Ni-Se quadra value
- his marriage to Livia is a typical description of ENTj-ISFj marriage - even that people gossiped that she ordered him around, and was seen as a stern and strong-willed figure
- his motivations in destroying his enemies, avenging Caesar's murder, and punishing his own daughter, are all Gamma Fi
- his dislike for obvious flattery and excessive socializing indicate low regard for Fe, so again Gamma
- he acted very proactively in everything, which is a characteristic of EJ temperament

etc etc

[Expat]

Not really Fe Role. Sounds like [Louis XIV] valued Fe - I'll go with ENFj.

That makes more sense, but the problem with ENFj is that Louis XIV loved a very routine, preset daily schedule, and he loved getting involved in every possible detail of government. ISTj makes more sense than ENFj.