Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
Yes, you seem to think I'm more upset than I actually am. Yes, thinking about being forced to do things against my will got me a little internally riled. But a quick step back, a recognition to myself of what was happening in me, and I regained stability.

Are you saying that everything you described up there, about what you like and prefer in terms of getting information out of people, is unhealthy behavior?
No, not everything.

I'm not talking about when you specifically said, "this is unhealthy." I mean things like this:

Depends on how important the matter is. The more important, the more pressure will be applied. Pressure forces people to tell the truth, to lie (and thus compromise themselves), or to make you know that the person really isn't going to back down (read some E8 descriptions...).

If it is a minor detail and clearly none of my business, then so be it. But personally I always remember who doesn't want to tell me what. People hide things for a reason, whether it is real significance, fear, or whatever, there's something telling about what people hide.
There are some healthy and unhealthy aspects of it. The healthy person is more persistent when there really is an issue, and will get to the bottom of things (thus more consideration). The unhealthy person will not be able to distinguish much between what is a "minor detail and clearly none of my business", and important things, and just be pressuring everything, as a norm.

I don't go around seeing who I can pressure info out of for fun, nor would I associate "applying pressure" with "healthy LSE", in the general sense. But I don't think that a health LSE never applies any pressure at all. To say things in socionics terms, is a strong, but unvalued function.

and
Heh heh heh... part of the problem is that it has to do with insecurity about information - we want IT ALL. Everything.

Secondly, it can be somewhat enjoyable to force stuff out of people.

Thirdly, it lets you know where the other person stands, as I described above, in relation to you. It is somewhat of a physical way to measure things, although it is unpleasant, and often leaves people uneasy. Again, I see this as a very E8 thing, because it is very instinctual, and very much just getting down to the core of who you are as a person and how you relate to me. In some ways, it doesn't matter what you say or what the subject matter is, it is testing you, always, to see where you stand on things. Testing you, and testing the situation, to understand the power dynamics that are at play.
Am I wrong to interpret all of this as what you, a representative of LSE, tend toward?
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Problem and insecurity should be noted. Yes, I have problems with getting information out of people, especially if I am insecure. That fits under the unhealthy category.

The comment about having fun forcing out of people is a separate matter, it is more lighthearted in terms of just seeing what people are willing to divulge. As I said, I don't go around pressuring people to see what I can get out of them for fun, that is not part of my everyday activity of things I do to enjoy myself.

The third part, yes. The "testing" aspect is a reality, whether it is a pleasant one or not. That was being extremely direct and not sugarcoating anything, in how I worded things. Everything about someone reveals information, and I find it hard to use another word than testing people. Power dyanamics refers to being attune to what is actually going on in the situation, not necessarily who has more power than the other person. But what is going on, and why.

I don't think LSE's are necessarily thinking about this all the time, but I'd be surprised if they would say they are not cognizant of it, totally blind to it. It is very related, yes. It has to do with being aware of what is affecting the situation.

As esper was saying, an unhealthy LSE is hyper or over sensitive to this. He is thinking everything a threat, pressures when it is unnecessary (or more so, pressure when the net effect is actually negative, and not even resulting in anything good, at all). The healthy LSE knows when to use force and persistence appropriately. I do believe the healthy LSE is aware of power dynamics and who is influencing what - it is a matter of realizing what is really going on in a situation, all the concrete, realistic factors.

You're talking about me whether you realize it or not; no, we've not had much interaction along these lines thus far, but it applies to me very much.
For clarity, that was in specific reference to the negative qualities that esper was describing. I have those negative qualities too, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common negative quality of LSEs, especially if they are in an unhealthy moment or state.