Dioklecian

[XoX]

Lol. funny. The most predictable typings around here...
Sneg: "You might be IEI"
Expat: "I don't think you are INTp"
not that those are bad typings just they seem to surface quite often

[aestrivex]

consider these arguments of dioklecian that richard dawkins is INFp:

I have read his book the selfish gene, for my bio class, and it seemed intriguing but insubstantial to me. So I think that he is Ni dominant (imaginative, very interesting perspective), and Fe, because his theories are not really based on facts, but are general interpretations. So I would say INFP.


A heard a lecture by him recently, he seemed quite emotional and full of pathos, but he didn't have many facts.

Its' just my opinion.

That is very true. However I didn't see the Fe hiden agenda. Also he is not very technical, in my opinion ENTPs inscience tend to be quite complex. Dawkins seems much more accessible.

these are evidently based on a very general sense of things, which is indicative of Ne. if these criteria were good, dio's typings would be perfectly reasonable (indicating that perhaps the structure ( ) of dio's thoughts is not the problem). the problem, however, is that when these criteria are considered they are absolutely absurd. for example, dio stated that "ENTPs inscience tend to be quite complex. Dawkins seems much more accessible." i have no idea why he would make such a claim;
rick has the following commentary about people that he has typed as ILE.

stephen hawking: "Concerned about making important academic concepts accessible to the average person."

david deutsch: "When LIIs speak on similar subjects, you get a different impression: "wow, this guy has fit everything together conceptually." For the ILE, the act of searching (i.e. simply trying to find new and better ways of looking at things) is more important than the destination itself (i.e. a structured conceptual system)." - ie this is less about complexity than about the ability and process of coming up with an answer.

my claim essentially boils down to the idea that dio's criteria are ridiculous and that he has no idea what he's talking about because he doesn't know how to evaluate his external surroundings. i see this as a feature of Se polr types. and, like many Ti types, he doesn't care in the slightest that his criteria are off; the creation of a system of ideas is more important to him than its the accuracy of its concepts.

[Gilly]

This refusal to explain has been pointed to before as an indicator of weak Ti, as we discussed in Joy's case. Ne+Ti types are, if anything, the masters of explaining: they're easily able to convey something in its simplist terms. I might even go so far as to say IEE for Dio.

no no no.

NeTi might be useful for dissecting and analyzing something in simplest terms. dio, on the other hand, is so far rooted into his own Ti that such an explanation is not even part of his mindset. i contend that the problem lies not with a failure of explanation, but rather with the fact that he doesn't understand what he's talking about at all. clearly, if he has no clue what he's talking about and his conclusions are totally wrong and unfounded, no explanation or analysis is possible.

The rule usually beats out the exception. His refusal to explain himself is more likely related to weak Ti than an obsession with it. Just like Joy, he might think he knows something, and he may or may not, but regardless, it's hard for him to retrace the logical thought process by which he arrived at his conclusions.

[aestrivex]

The rule usually beats out the exception. His refusal to explain himself is more likely related to weak Ti than an obsession with it. Just like Joy, he might think he knows something, and he may or may not, but regardless, it's hard for him to retrace the logical thought process by which he arrived at his conclusions.

that would be a plausible explanation. i don't want to point to one explanation and say that's how he reacts, because that would simply be misinformation, but if you look above or in the richard dawkins thread he gives an explanation of his ideas there.


i could be wrong but i'm led to believe that his observations hold some (albeit bizarre) basis and that he doesn't explain himself simply because he sees no need to do so rather than that he can't.

[Joy]

His refusal to explain himself is more likely related to weak Ti than an obsession with it. Just like Joy, he might think he knows something, and he may or may not, but regardless, it's hard for him to retrace the logical thought process by which he arrived at his conclusions.

It is not difficult for me to "retrace the logical thought process by which I arrived at his conclusions" because first of all, as I've stated more times than I can count, when I say something it is not a conclusion. Secondly, as we discussed yesterday, very rarely do I mean what I'm saying literally. Thirdly, I do know why I'm saying something, but even if I'm willing to reveal my reasoning it would take too long to explain how all of the factors involved are connected and it's just simply not worth the effort. And finally, there's this:

The problem is not that I cannot explain what I mean, it's that when I do people take it as an invitation for a sparring match, and I can't get out until I tell them I'm done... otherwise it never stops. There's no resolution because they don't want to get the point.

At some point I asked myself why they don't just ignore me if they think I'm wrong about so much stuff, and I thought about the people who I think of as unintelligent and don't respect and realized that I don't respond to them... I pretty much just ignore them most of the time. What they say is not stimulating, and they simply have nothing to offer me.

I started thinking about the posters who seem to have a problem with just about everything that I post. They're all very intelligent people who come to the internet to talk to people instead of just spending time with people they know irl because those people don't offer the stimulation they need.

That's when I decided that (unless I'm having a bad/off day) I would simply ignore the inquiries of people who I know from experience will just keep picking apart my posts looking for things to use to engage me in a debate. If someone who is not one of those people asks me to explain myself, I generally send them a PM because doing so will actually accomplish something, whereas responding in the thread would be like stepping into a boxing ring because others will see my explanation as in invitation to engage me in a debate.

It's sooo easy to get drawn in a lot of times (especially when I'm supposed to be doing something else that I'd really rather not do) because they start out by asking something that sounds like (and perhaps is) a legitimate and reasonable point or question, or they say something that is obviously untrue and easy to refute... but when I respond, they continue with these posts, each one getting further and further away from the point and very often becoming rather ridiculous. Suddenly it's literally 5 or 6 hours later and I realize that I've not accomplished ANYTHING during that period... the conversation was not productive or rewarding in any way.

Maybe some people see it as rude for me not to explain myself. I see it as rude for them to expect me to when they clearly are not looking to understand my point. This is proven even further when anytime I post something that sums up my point well, they totally ignore it and go back to a different post and pick something out of it to argue with. And then they call it a Ti PoLR when I get frustrated with this. And the funny thing about that is that I don't think that most (read: most) of the people who say that actually think that I have a Ti PoLR... they may not know what type I am, but they don't honestly believe that I'm ESFp... it's just fun to say so.

Disclaimer: I'd like to be clear that I don't think most of them realize what they're doing. And I certainly don't anticipate that anyone's going to be like, "Wow, thanks for pointing that out, Joy. I now understand that I should find a more productive way to stimulate myself and stop trying to leach off of the mental energy of others."

The main point of this post though is this: I request that you stop comparing me to Dioklecian. Thank you.

[Joy]

oh yeah, ENFp sounds better for him than any of the other types suggest

[Mea]

oh yeah, ENFp sounds better for him than any of the other types suggest

Please remember that we can't merely base our typings on functions as if each of them existed in the void.

As for Dio, he's definitely not an EJ nor EP. He is an IJ or IP, i can't quite tell right now. Dio's lack of explanation of his typings can be linked to his IJ/IP temperament always striving to conserve energy (as opposed to an EP or EJ).

And you seem gamma. ESFp?

Edit: Eh. I don't know really.
But Dio might be ENFp. I agree with Joy, and the rest who are suggesting ENFp.

[Expat]

As for Dio, he's definitely not an EJ nor EP. He is an IJ or IP, i can't quite tell right now. Dio's lack of explanation of his typings can be linked to his IJ/IP temperament always striving to conserve energy (as opposed to an EP or EJ).

Nah. That's not what being an introvert is about. Do Phaedrus, Diana, Isha, snegledmaca, tcaudilllg, niffweed17, and other accepted introverts here show any kind of lack of willingness to explain their thoughts when asked? Being an introvert is more about not feeling the need to take initiative, all the time, as a primary drive; not about not being able, or even willing, to be active when requested or when it's necessary.

According to your explanation, introverts would hardly ever achieve anything (since they'd be concerned with "conserving energy") which is very obviously not true at all.

i could be wrong but i'm led to believe that his observations hold some (albeit bizarre) basis and that he doesn't explain himself simply because he sees no need to do so rather than that he can't.

Some time ago he used to "explain" his typings exclusively via VI - a VI of the Sergei Ganin school, I think. He also said that he couldn't explain them better since "VI was Ti", which was difficult to explain to others.

Is that still how you see it, Dio?

[Expat]

Lol. funny. The most predictable typings around here...
Sneg: "You might be IEI"
Expat: "I don't think you are INTp"
not that those are bad typings just they seem to surface quite often

If you are implying that I have an inclination to not typing people as INTp, this is a fallacy since I have recently typed JohnClay, eliphalet's sister, and drd252 precisely as - yes - INTp. I'm also one of the few people here to accept that Phaedrus is more likely INTp rather than INTj. I can also see implied as INTp. So there is no case to say that I am particularly reluctant to type someone as INTp.

That was a good example of Fe>Te focus, by the way.

[aestrivex]

i could be wrong but i'm led to believe that his observations hold some (albeit bizarre) basis and that he doesn't explain himself simply because he sees no need to do so rather than that he can't.

Some time ago he used to "explain" his typings exclusively via VI - a VI of the Sergei Ganin school, I think. He also said that he couldn't explain them better since "VI was Ti", which was difficult to explain to others.

Is that still how you see it, Dio?

i would have to vehemently disagree that VI is a Ti subject. if dio really does hold that absurd perspective, his suggestion that he can't explain his Ti because it is too weak falls apart very quickly.

i wouldn't say that making a statement like that is necessarily type related; just erroneous and misguided. if anything, i think that it would also be reflective of strong Ti; i believe that making up portions of theories to tie together concepts is acceptable to a Ti system. that is perhaps what you have here, albeit not a very coherent system or reasonable
suggestions.


although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

[Expat]

although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

Fair enough.

Does anyone come close to acting this way, in your opinion? It seems to me that the Ti types are rather readier to explain their views.

[aestrivex]

although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

Fair enough.

Does anyone come close to acting this way, in your opinion? It seems to me that the Ti types are rather readier to explain their views.

i would agree, in general. i don't see anyone who does exactly what dio does, but when the INTjs and ENFps are compared, i see dio's unusual typings and poor explanations to be much more reminiscent of certain INTjs spewing very unusual ideas. look at tcaudillg for an example, who (from what i have seen) has, like dio, developed an extremely dubious method. i am aware that tcaudillg explains his methods more than dio, but given some of his and dio's recent explanations i think they make about as much sense.

certainly, dio's typings are very different from what ENFps on this forum do; most of them stay away from theoretical or methodological discussion of socionics and simply reflect on their own experiences with the subject. anndelise is an obvious exception, but clearly her explorations are highly different from those of dio.

[leckysupport]

although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

Fair enough.

Does anyone come close to acting this way, in your opinion? It seems to me that the Ti types are rather readier to explain their views.

Just a suggestion, but what about dio being a EII? I've seen EIIs faces go red and just walk away from a conversation if there is too much emphasis on Ti and/or Se.

Read the Fi section in this article:

http://socionics.us/practice/super_ego.shtml

Dio being a EII would also go in line of him appearing to have Se polr.

[Gilly]

The main point of this post though is this: I request that you stop comparing me to Dioklecian, despite our many obvious similarities. Thank you.

lol

IEE for Dio.

[Expat]

Just a suggestion, but what about dio being a EII?.

It's possible, but I still prefer IEE.

[aestrivex]

i think EII is more likely than IEE, but LII still makes the most sense to me.

[Dioklecian]

oh yeah, ENFp sounds better for him than any of the other types suggest

Please remember that we can't merely base our typings on functions as if each of them existed in the void.

As for Dio, he's definitely not an EJ nor EP. He is an IJ or IP, i can't quite tell right now. Dio's lack of explanation of his typings can be linked to his IJ/IP temperament always striving to conserve energy (as opposed to an EP or EJ).

Yes

[Dioklecian]

although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

Fair enough.

Does anyone come close to acting this way, in your opinion? It seems to me that the Ti types are rather readier to explain their views.

i would agree, in general. i don't see anyone who does exactly what dio does, but when the INTjs and ENFps are compared, i see dio's unusual typings and poor explanations to be much more reminiscent of certain INTjs spewing very unusual ideas. look at tcaudillg for an example, who (from what i have seen) has, like dio, developed an extremely dubious method. i am aware that tcaudillg explains his methods more than dio, but given some of his and dio's recent explanations i think they make about as much sense.

certainly, dio's typings are very different from what ENFps on this forum do; most of them stay away from theoretical or methodological discussion of socionics and simply reflect on their own experiences with the subject. anndelise is an obvious exception, but clearly her explorations are highly different from those of dio.

I don't fully understand what you mean with that phrase. By the way, I am pretty sure of your type. You can chose to send me the money after (and if) you find it to be correct (like Gilligan).

[Dioklecian]

t;] i could be wrong but i'm led to believe that his observations hold some (albeit bizarre) basis and that he doesn't explain himself simply because he sees no need to do so rather than that he can't.

Some time ago he used to "explain" his typings exclusively via VI - a VI of the Sergei Ganin school, I think. He also said that he couldn't explain them better since "VI was Ti", which was difficult to explain to others.

Is that still how you see it, Dio?

-I don't see an URGENT need to explain my typings, my theory is that if my typing is correct it will stand the test of time, otherwise it won't. I don't trust my method(s) sufficiently to believe that they give me the correct answer at all times. I am still working on identifying the essence of what "type" is, so the results are primary and methods secondary. That is, I am still changing my methods rather than my results.

Does that make sense?

[Dioklecian]

i could be wrong but i'm led to believe that his observations hold some (albeit bizarre) basis and that he doesn't explain himself simply because he sees no need to do so rather than that he can't.

Some time ago he used to "explain" his typings exclusively via VI - a VI of the Sergei Ganin school, I think. He also said that he couldn't explain them better since "VI was Ti", which was difficult to explain to others.

Is that still how you see it, Dio?

i would have to vehemently disagree that VI is a Ti subject. if dio really does hold that absurd perspective, his suggestion that he can't explain his Ti because it is too weak falls apart very quickly.

i wouldn't say that making a statement like that is necessarily type related; just erroneous and misguided. if anything, i think that it would also be reflective of strong Ti; i believe that making up portions of theories to tie together concepts is acceptable to a Ti system. that is perhaps what you have here, albeit not a very coherent system or reasonable
suggestions.


although absurd and often remarkably strange, i don't think that viewpoints like this or dio's behavior in general are a result of Ti polr. take a look at the ENFps on this forum; none of them come close to acting this way.

I still hold that VI is Ti, (+Se ) of course

[Dioklecian]

The main point of this post though is this: I request that you stop comparing me to Dioklecian, despite our many obvious similarities. Thank you.

lol

IEE for Dio.

My sister is ENFP and our dynamics are not those of identicals in my opinion.

[Joy]

The only thing that makes Ti sound more likely than an ethical type is Dioklecian's own descriptions of how socially inept he is and how he has difficulty beginning, maintaining, and understanding relationships. If anything, this seems to be something he needs and welcomes help with. (Please note that I don't mean any offense there, Dioklecian.) He doesn't seem at all insecure about his personal theories and typings and whatnot.

I think ENFp sounded good to me because (aside from just being in a haze right now) I was looking at his pics and thinking that he looks extroverted... plus some of the other stuff that's all ready been mentioned in this thread. At the same time though, when you think about some of the INTjs who've posted here... let's just take Hugo as an example... there seem to be some similarities. The fact that Dioklecian doesn't spooge Ti all over the forum in the form of long mental masturbation posts explaining his theories doesn't mean he doesn't have any.

Has ISTj been suggested yet? I've only skimmed this thread... and I'm not saying that I think he is ISTj (I just think he's Dioklecian). The way he tries to type countries or assume that all *insert whatever type here* are *insert some seriously neurotic behavior here* is worth mentioning because from what I've read (and observed to a lesser extent), people who fit best into the ISTj category tend to be judgmental about whole groups of people like this.

[aestrivex]

@dio: STFU. if you think i am paying you a cent for you to tell me that i'm SEI, keep waiting.


@joy: dio is the least confrontational person on this forum. there aren't any LSIs to compare him to, but just look at his behavior as compared to somebody like FDG. are they even remotely similar? i don't have any idea how dio could possibly be Se.

[Joy]

I don't see Se...

[Dioklecian]

@dio: STFU. if you think i am paying you a cent for you to tell me that i'm SEI, keep waiting.


@joy: dio is the least confrontational person on this forum. there aren't any LSIs to compare him to, but just look at his behavior as compared to somebody like FDG. are they even remotely similar? i don't have any idea how dio could possibly be Se.

Good God not SEI.

However I assure you that knowing your type would make you a happier person. 200 bucks seems a very fair price given the verbal abuse I have had to endure from you.

[aestrivex]

lol. in this instance, SEI was used exemplum random type which i am nottus which relates to this because whatever type you have in mind is precisely that.

[Dioklecian]

lol. in this instance, SEI was used exemplum random type which i am nottus which relates to this because whatever type you have in mind is precisely that.

As you wish, the price will increase in the future

[CuriousSoul]

Since I have become ESFJ (ESE) I can start typing people based on my subjective experience of the intertype relations and I can definitely feel the asymmetrical relations between me and Dio. I write long and thoughtful posts - he answers with few short sentences at most... Definitely he feels more pressure than I - hence I am supervising Dioklecian, and he is actually ISTP.:wink:

[Dioklecian]

Since I have become ESFJ (ESE) I can start typing people based on my subjective experience of the intertype relations and I can definitely feel the asymmetrical relations between me and Dio. I write long and thoughtful posts - he answers with few short sentences at most... Definitely he feels more pressure than I - hence I am supervising Dioklecian, and he is actually ISTP.:wink:

The short replies might be alearnedbehaviour, I had an evil INFP prof who drilled it into me that a sentence is plenty for most emails.

[Dioklecian]

As always these things are not certain certain, but he is very emotional and image conscious.

[Dioklecian]

INTP I shouldthink, because of thestrategic abilities.
By the way you said that my Ni scares you at times, Could you explain?

[Dioklecian]

I can say positive things too, you know

[Ms. Kensington]

Since I have become ESFJ

?

[Expat]

INTP I shouldthink, because of thestrategic abilities.
By the way you said that my Ni scares you at times, Could you explain?

me - (talking about some guy, project or other)
dio - hmm...this won't work out...he is not interested in that plan. he won't even be able to help you with that
me - why?
dio - just trust, it's doomed.


NOTE: i'm using very generic phrases here, simply trying to hint at the general spirit of it all

What doesn't sound Te-ego here is this "just trust me" which is very characteristic of Dio, that is, an unwillingness/inability to explain his conclusions.

[Dioklecian]

INTP I shouldthink, because of thestrategic abilities.
By the way you said that my Ni scares you at times, Could you explain?

me - (talking about some guy, project or other)
dio - hmm...this won't work out...he is not interested in that plan. he won't even be able to help you with that
me - why?
dio - just trust, it's doomed.


NOTE: i'm using very generic phrases here, simply trying to hint at the general spirit of it all

What doesn't sound Te-ego here is this "just trust me" which is very characteristic of Dio, that is, an unwillingness/inability to explain his conclusions.

I am just trying to save time usually, or keep my privacy.

[aestrivex]

INTP I shouldthink, because of thestrategic abilities.

is that your reasoning?


jesus.