have you ever had a thing for your conflictor?

[Jonathan]

It was his wit....

This sounds much more like someone describing their supervisee than their conflictor.

Well that would suggest that Diana's possibly INFj, but I'm willing to take her word for it that she's ISFj.

In any case, the description only mentions good things explicitly...

that I was most impressed by....that was extremely interesting to me....Conversation with him was easy. I can't ever remember any awkwardness. ...unwaveringness in it that interested him. ...not only have similar senses of humor and laugh a lot, but find each other's differences intriguing

It seems to me that there must be some sort of moment, some sort of specific type of situation where one is aware that "This is the conflict relation coming into play now" or "This is the point where accepting Fi and producing Ti come into conflict."

I can only guess at what it might look at. Rational vs. irrational is easy to picture; the rational person is annoyed at the irrational's seeming irresponsibility. But that's not an adequate example here, because it applies equally to Activity relations.

@Diana: I don't mean to probe too much, but I thank you for sharing. This is really a great opportunity to understand ISFj (or IxFj) + ENTp much more fully. But I'd be curious...given all the positives you mentioned, what was it that you couldn't stand? ...Surely not the mere fact of oppositeness (which is also present in dual relations). Is it something that can be articulated? Or is it just a vague feeling that never surfaces in any way but just bothers you?

[Expat]

It was his wit....

This sounds much more like someone describing their supervisee than their conflictor.

Well that would suggest that Diana's possibly INFj, but I'm willing to take her word for it that she's ISFj.

Well actually I think that she's likely ISFj and that would suggest that he's ESTp, probably Ti subtype.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

My husband and I are ENFj/ISTp and have been married for 6 years. I met him 11 years ago and he was not intended to be a "keeper" because he was much older than me. I discovered after dating other people though that we had a bond. He contacted me many times through those years of indecision, and let me know that he was thinking of me. I finally realized that not only did I love hearing from him-we connected like so few people do. We had some issues in the beginning, but now we have a relationship that my friends envy. He is intelligent, detached, playful and helps me get my head out of the clouds. He is on an NF pedestal for certain....but I wouldn't have it any other way!!

[Jonathan]

My husband and I are ENFj/ISTp and have been married for 6 years. I met him 11 years ago and he was not intended to be a "keeper" because he was much older than me. I discovered after dating other people though that we had a bond. He contacted me many times through those years of indecision, and let me know that he was thinking of me. I finally realized that not only did I love hearing from him-we connected like so few people do. We had some issues in the beginning, but now we have a relationship that my friends envy. He is intelligent, detached, playful and helps me get my head out of the clouds. He is on an NF pedestal for certain....but I wouldn't have it any other way!!

It is interesting that there's a book called "Love Types" or something like that, based on MBTI, that's all about compatible types. According to that book, ENFJ-femal/ISTP-male (or maybe ENFJ-ISTP in general...I don't remember...see below) is a great combination.

The book is very strange in that its suggested relationships are highly assymetrical, with women of each type being considered compatible with many more types than men of each type. It recommends usually that Ns stick with Ns and Ss stick with Ss, which is completely opposite Socionics. The one big exception is with the case NFJ women, who it says do well with their opposites. It sites Keirsey's book in the references for this, however Keirsey's view is symmetrical (opposites attract), whereas this book only follows him in the NFJ-STP case.

One thing I've sometimes wondered is whether MBTI ENFJs, who are generally highly energetic and forceful (but in a nice way) are ESFP in Socionics. Maybe not...just a thought.

Anyhow, according that book, ENFJ/ISTP is right on the mark.

[Jonathan]

It was his wit....

This sounds much more like someone describing their supervisee than their conflictor.

Well that would suggest that Diana's possibly INFj, but I'm willing to take her word for it that she's ISFj.

Well actually I think that she's likely ISFj and that would suggest that he's ESTp, probably Ti subtype.

Could be, but her description of him sounds N, and especially Ne given the fact that she says Anndelise reminds her of him.

I'm inclined to go with her assessment about types rather than judge the types based on the intertype description at this point, because we don't have enough information. Basically, she's seems to be saying that things were going great, but there was a problem (unspecified), so I don't think we know yet the nature of the relations. Just from the description, it actually sounds more like Activity, since she mentioned that had shared a sense of humor and connected so easily. Ni types may also fit the description of "constant stream of ideas."

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I discovered MBTI after taking a Socionics test many years ago in which I came up ENFj. I took to the MBTI and have studied it ever since. I don't know
much about Socionics but I am taking it that it must be impossible? to be the same in both. I took 2 different tests again this time, just to see what would happen. I came out to be Enfj on one and on the other it said ENFj (no subtype) OR ENFp (no subtype). I read in keirseys book though that the ideal match was ESFj/ISTp. I am interested in the book you mentioned. I think (certainly in my case) that opposites do attract and the theory has it's merit.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Slava]

Just wanted to add that a relationship, especially a long-term one isnt a 2-dimensional thing that you can quantify, examine, and easily sum up. There are many many layers and aspects all combining, and it would be next to impossible to describe every one with its interactions to all the others. There's never a complete description, all I can ever give at a time is a summary of one of any of the myriad layers.

This is true, but people with bad F and relational paranoia need something to help them. Everyone developes a way to rationalize the things they are weak at.

One of the biggest fears people have these days is that they will be replaced with machines. Usually the people with low IQ's who work trivial jobs.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Jonathan]

@Diana: I don't mean to probe too much, but I thank you for sharing. This is really a great opportunity to understand ISFj (or IxFj) + ENTp much more fully. But I'd be curious...given all the positives you mentioned, what was it that you couldn't stand? ...Surely not the mere fact of oppositeness (which is also present in dual relations). Is it something that can be articulated? Or is it just a vague feeling that never surfaces in any way but just bothers you?

Well, a lot of the positives were also negatives, if that makes sense. He was completely disorganized, unpredictable and impulsive. I could never plan anything whatsoever, because he'd on the spur of the moment completely change things around without letting me know ahead of time. He didn't understand my need to have peace and quiet and time to myself just to think, nor did he understand my need to get out and do something, some kind of physical exercise. I practically had to beg him to watch the kids so I could get out and run, or walk or rollerblade or something by myself. I explained that it was an actual physical need like food or water or air, and I was going to go completely insane. He acquiesed but never did get it. He also didn't understand why I wanted to know how things were going to go beforehand, why I had to plan anything. He would call constantly when he was traveling, and pout if I didn't want to talk right then, so I'd end up on the phone when I had a million other things to do. (Not that I didn't want to talk to him, but it was all the time.) He made it difficult for me to do anything, as he'd interrupt me, or try to get me to put it off. He was very selfish, didn't understand me, laughed at the things I wanted to accomplish rather than supporting me, yet expected my full support for all of his ideas. That's enough. I don't much like talking about the bad parts.

So, looking from one side, it doesn't look too bad, but there's a flip side. There were plenty of positives, but below the surface was a constant tug-of-war. I could either force my way and drag him through to my way of doing things, or he could drag me along to his way.

Thanks....well that gives a good understanding then. Again, I appreciate your sharing. Clearly, I think that for relationships to be successful, people need to respect each others' needs, communicate to coordinate their activities, and both actively help each other to support each other's priorities. It seems clear that you weren't getting that. The great mystery is how type interferes with these three principles.

I've seen or heard of instances of where types devalued the practical goals set by ISj types, whether it's exercise, getting practical things done efficiently, etc. The odd thing is that on the surface, Si types have similar goals; exercise, practical things, simple things that need to get done, etc., are important to them too, but they're duals with , so somehow it's different.

I guess that's the thing to think about to see how Socionics really works....how the different intertype relationships foster that sort of mutual respect and support, or work against those. In theory, it should be a simple matter of "quadra values." In practice, it's harder because quasi-identicals tend to value such similar things. Anyhow...something to think about....

[Slava]

I've seen or heard of instances of where types devalued the practical goals set by ISj types, whether it's exercise, getting practical things done efficiently, etc. The odd thing is that on the surface, Si types have similar goals; exercise, practical things, simple things that need to get done, etc., are important to them too, but they're duals with , so somehow it's different.

Thats an interesting point... its like... if he does it its bad, but if he does it its excused. but i think thats because of the whole, redeaming qualities thing. its a matter of seing their good side or seeing their good side as something that is bad to you and or society.

[FDG]

I've seen or heard of instances of where types devalued the practical goals set by ISj types, whether it's exercise, getting practical things done efficiently, etc. The odd thing is that on the surface, Si types have similar goals; exercise, practical things, simple things that need to get done, etc., are important to them too, but they're duals with , so somehow it's different.

(Diana no offense you might not relate to this) types seem to just do it without making a big fuss about it. creative types I know always need to have a 3-months plan to follow accurately at the gym blah blah ( hidden agenda?)?

[Slava]

I've seen or heard of instances of where types devalued the practical goals set by ISj types, whether it's exercise, getting practical things done efficiently, etc. The odd thing is that on the surface, Si types have similar goals; exercise, practical things, simple things that need to get done, etc., are important to them too, but they're duals with , so somehow it's different.

(Diana no offense you might not relate to this) types seem to just do it without making a big fuss about it. creative types I know always need to have a 3-months plan to follow accurately at the gym blah blah ( hidden agenda?)?

Thats sorta similar to how Te types use systems and dont examine nor care how the internal components inside of it make it do what it does. And how Ti types need to know the components of a system to be able to string it together. Ti would then understand the internal working of the system and coul then modify it so that it has the same functionality, while the Te types only modify that which is external to the components they are presented (wich have subsystems)... its probably the same with Se vs Si

[Expat]

(Diana no offense you might not relate to this) types seem to just do it without making a big fuss about it. creative types I know always need to have a 3-months plan to follow accurately at the gym blah blah ( hidden agenda?)?

I think it's indeed the or, if you prefer, the IJ static-rational view instead of the IP dynamic-irrational view.

EDIT: hmm, no, it's more connected to specifically since INFjs have less need for plans.

[Jonathan]

(Diana no offense you might not relate to this) types seem to just do it without making a big fuss about it. creative types I know always need to have a 3-months plan to follow accurately at the gym blah blah ( hidden agenda?)?

I think it's indeed the or, if you prefer, the IJ static-rational view instead of the IP dynamic-irrational view.

EDIT: hmm, no, it's more connected to specifically since INFjs have less need for plans.

Are you saying that types have a strong need for plans, or only people with in their dual block? Would -dominantes have a strong need for plans then?

[Jonathan]

Thats sorta similar to how Te types use systems and dont examine nor care how the internal components inside of it make it do what it does. And how Ti types need to know the components of a system to be able to string it together. Ti would then understand the internal working of the system and coul then modify it so that it has the same functionality, while the Te types only modify that which is external to the components they are presented (wich have subsystems)... its probably the same with Se vs Si

So if I care about how things work...e.g., if I always insisted on proving everything in math class and hated to memorize formulas....then I must be a type?

types don't care about how anything works?

[Expat]

Are you saying that types have a strong need for plans, or only people with in their dual block? Would -dominantes have a strong need for plans then?

I mean specifically ISFjs and ISTjs who have as the 6th function; these types are anxious about putting things off and about not managing to do them if they do put them off.

EDIT: from the very beginning, Jonathan, I have fought against the idea that strong (as in ego) is about planning.

[Expat]

Ah, and reading Diana's description, now I see it as a likely ISFj-ENTp interaction.

[FDG]

(Diana no offense you might not relate to this) types seem to just do it without making a big fuss about it. creative types I know always need to have a 3-months plan to follow accurately at the gym blah blah ( hidden agenda?)?

I think it's indeed the or, if you prefer, the IJ static-rational view instead of the IP dynamic-irrational view.

EDIT: hmm, no, it's more connected to specifically since INFjs have less need for plans.

Are you saying that types have a strong need for plans, or only people with in their dual block? Would -dominantes have a strong need for plans then?

I think ISxjs have a certain need for plans, also due to the PoLR. The ESxps and ENxjs and INxps, not so much.

[Slava]

Thats sorta similar to how Te types use systems and dont examine nor care how the internal components inside of it make it do what it does. And how Ti types need to know the components of a system to be able to string it together. Ti would then understand the internal working of the system and coul then modify it so that it has the same functionality, while the Te types only modify that which is external to the components they are presented (wich have subsystems)... its probably the same with Se vs Si

So if I care about how things work...e.g., if I always insisted on proving everything in math class and hated to memorize formulas....then I must be a type?

types don't care about how anything works?

Well it depends what frame of reference you look at it from. From the Ti frame of reference we see a box with components inside but we want to see the essence of that box so that we can connect other boxes to it at the lowest levels instead of at the highest abstraction levels. I'm sure Te sees it the same exact way, however what is highest level for Te is lowest level for Ti. So when you are talking about math, you are dealing with terms that are defined by a stack of other terms and thus the symbolic manipulation and replacement would be more of a Te thing. Where as Ti would memorize the forumlas and use them as tools.

[Dioklecian]

Ewww cooties! My conflictor is always shocked at why I don't find them attractive, and they try to show off to me in the most ineffective ways... like they will be like... look at my legs, do you like them (in a condescending tone attacking my Fi). And I'm looking at their legs that they spent shaping in the gym, and instead of them being toned and shaped, they are instead powerful and nothing more than that. They present themselves sexually as if they were some kind of thing that they are trying to sell. And their sales tactics hit my POLR, because I have no idea if they are messing with my head or if they are seriously trying to impress me with their Fi.

As a plurality of the girls I have dated have been ISFJ I have to say that you don't appreciate them enough, I love going out with an ISFJ dressed to kill (almost literally) and have all the guys eye us with a profound sense of envy

[Slava]

Ewww cooties! My conflictor is always shocked at why I don't find them attractive, and they try to show off to me in the most ineffective ways... like they will be like... look at my legs, do you like them (in a condescending tone attacking my Fi). And I'm looking at their legs that they spent shaping in the gym, and instead of them being toned and shaped, they are instead powerful and nothing more than that. They present themselves sexually as if they were some kind of thing that they are trying to sell. And their sales tactics hit my POLR, because I have no idea if they are messing with my head or if they are seriously trying to impress me with their Fi.

As a plurality of the girls I have dated have been ISFJ I have to say that you don't appreciate them enough, I love going out with an ISFJ dressed to kill (almost literally) and have all the guys eye us with a profound sense of envy

As with all people, some are ok, some are assholes... I think the difference lies in level of egoism/ignorance, reletive to the observer. There is no right way to live though. There is only existance and dynamic reactions due to static forces, physical or existential.

[Dioklecian]

Ewww cooties! My conflictor is always shocked at why I don't find them attractive, and they try to show off to me in the most ineffective ways... like they will be like... look at my legs, do you like them (in a condescending tone attacking my Fi). And I'm looking at their legs that they spent shaping in the gym, and instead of them being toned and shaped, they are instead powerful and nothing more than that. They present themselves sexually as if they were some kind of thing that they are trying to sell. And their sales tactics hit my POLR, because I have no idea if they are messing with my head or if they are seriously trying to impress me with their Fi.

As a plurality of the girls I have dated have been ISFJ I have to say that you don't appreciate them enough, I love going out with an ISFJ dressed to kill (almost literally) and have all the guys eye us with a profound sense of envy

As with all people, some are ok, some are assholes... I think the difference lies in level of egoism/ignorance, reletive to the observer. There is no right way to live though. There is only existance and dynamic reactions due to static forces, physical or existential.

This is quite brilliant actually and I agree with it.

What is it that offends you about ISFJs (if that is the right word). What is it that you want from them and they cannot give you?

[Slava]

Ewww cooties! My conflictor is always shocked at why I don't find them attractive, and they try to show off to me in the most ineffective ways... like they will be like... look at my legs, do you like them (in a condescending tone attacking my Fi). And I'm looking at their legs that they spent shaping in the gym, and instead of them being toned and shaped, they are instead powerful and nothing more than that. They present themselves sexually as if they were some kind of thing that they are trying to sell. And their sales tactics hit my POLR, because I have no idea if they are messing with my head or if they are seriously trying to impress me with their Fi.

As a plurality of the girls I have dated have been ISFJ I have to say that you don't appreciate them enough, I love going out with an ISFJ dressed to kill (almost literally) and have all the guys eye us with a profound sense of envy

As with all people, some are ok, some are assholes... I think the difference lies in level of egoism/ignorance, reletive to the observer. There is no right way to live though. There is only existance and dynamic reactions due to static forces, physical or existential.

This is quite brilliant actually and I agree with it.

What is it that offends you about ISFJs (if that is the right word). What is it that you want from them and they cannot give you?

They don't offend me much honestly, I learned to appreciate them from a distance... but its still a draining interaction subjectively speaking, as expected. They force me to throw away what I stand for because to them the world should not have Ti Ne restrictions or judgements. So their attempts to "lighten me up" eat away at my soul, no matter how good their intentions are, those intentions are still selfish. It's like asking a cop to sing and dance with you in public. None the less, the ignorant ones really bug me sometimes, when they have no sense of ethical restrictions and appreciation conditioned into them yet. I was in Japan once with family eatting with some of my dad's coworkers and one of the ladies there was a hardcore ISFj and her and I tried to make small talk, so naturally I looked into her eyes and tried to get a feel for her psychological focus, so I could meet her half way, and neither of us could guage each other, so I started to feel panic, and extreme animosity building up... I just saw a hole in her soul, and I'm sure she felt the same. It was extremely frightening how hollow her soul appeared and yet she was still functioning and looking back at me. Eventually we started talking about the more shallow meanignless things like children. It felt like talking to a message machine and I felt offeded at how much respect, attention, and energy I had to divert to something that seemed to have no soul... Usually this never happens with my conflict and I but she was an extreme and had a very weak superego, as did I at the time.

[ncassidy]

Wow, a lot of the stuff in this thread helped me to finally type the last girl I dated. She is definitely my conflictor. No wonder it wasn't going anywhere.