Differences between ILE-ENTp and SLE-ESTp

[Jimbean]

I am a bit confused. Sometimes it is easy to pick out an ENTp from other types, but other times ENTp's and ESTp's are a lot alike.

Take me for example: I act and think differently than many ENTp's, but at the same time I am different from most ESTp's. I seem to fall in this gap. For a while I tried out ENTj, even tried to think like it for about a week, but was not it.

Then I thought that socionics does not work for everybody, even though it could be used in some way (if you can use it at all).

I stuck with ENTp because it seemed right on paper, then when I saw that the intertype relations did not work or other people's descriptions of ENTp, I assumed that I was just well-rounded!

Well, anyway after seeing Transigent's "Socionics in the family" post, I remembered that I grew up in an Alpha household with an INFj as a sister (which I still live with).

Conflicting Relations

People who have parents that are conflictors have trouble identifying thier types. They may even LOOK like thier conflictors in a wierd way, and have problems identifying Introversion or Extroversion.

This is how I think it works: suppose you have an ESTp with an INFj parent. Now, what happens is I think that over time, the ESTp is "molded" into a form that the parent can easily deal with, but is still overly critical of.

So, they may become ENTp-acting, because the parent supresses the natural Extraverted Sensing.

Also, the person will seem introverted. (And they may test as the same type as thier conflicting parent.)

Thus, they will type themselves as an "Introverted" ENTp, they will feel give off a "feel" of ISTj...but thier true type is ESTp!

This is all true and it pisses me off! I want to discuss this if anybody is willing

[Joy]

It's hard to tell the difference between an intelligent ENTp and an intelligent ESTp. I've met an average intelligence ENTp...

Yeah... so it all comes down to your 3rd, 5th, and 7th functions.

When you're being aggressive, do you get Ni or Si? When you feel like you're doing something cause you just have to, is it Ne or Se? When someone makes you feel great in a way you didn't look for from that person, is it Si or Ni?

[Gilly]

When you're being aggressive, do you get Ni or Si? Ni?

Not a valid question. Using a function aggressively does not imply that you only use it when you're actually being aggressive.

If I'm wrong, what, exactly, would Ni or Si manifest themselves as when used "aggressively," by your definition?

[Ave]

Well, Im no expert on the matter but from what I understand, they differ in terms of aptitude. ENTps aptitudes are in finding original solutions to problems. ESTps aptitudes are in dominating the physical environment.

For what its worth, thats my $.02.

[Rocky]

ENTP: "Oh, hey, look! Watch me do a cartwheel!! Do you know the reason the sky is blue? I do! I'm going to be an engineer... wait, no... lawyer sounds better. Actually, I'd really, really prefer to be an international spy! Yeah, that would be cool. ICE CREAM!!!"

ESTP: "Penis, vagina, penis, vagina, penis, vagina, football, penis, vagina, penis, vagina."

[Fermi]

Rocky, no.. not atleast for me.. perhaps you don't meant it literally but not even in "feeling" it gives a honest description.

[Rocky]

Rocky, no.. not atleast for me.. perhaps you don't meant it literally but not even in "feeling" it gives a honest description.

... no it wasn't serious (thought the ENTP one isn't far from the truth :wink: ).

But now that you've brought it up, what does ESTP think?

[Joy]

ESTp thinks, "WOW I HAVE SO MUCH ENERGY HOW CAN I GET THESE PEOPLE TO LOOK AT ME I WANT ATTENTIOOOOOOOOOOOOOON" and then says "PENIS ASS-RAPE FUCK YOUR EAR LOOK AT MY BOOOOOOOOOOBS!!! I'M GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT!"

[Fermi]

I.. dont know what I think off... I know I do think though.. It's almost thoughts that's not in real words. Like it's a bit hard to "touch" in the real world.. (thoughts are in general a question we know little about, isn't it?) I think that's why it's hard to remember what I thought.. comprende? :wink:

Hmm, I have to think of this.. Oh, yeah.. When I see a beautiful woman I can... noo.. everyone probably do this.. :wink:

I'll come back in a few days and come with a report on what I do think of really...

[XoX]

Do ENTp's ever act like ESTp's, and vice versa? Do ENTp's ever show aggressive or confrontational behaviour?

For me it seems like ENTps are more often aggressive than ESTps. They get pissed of way more easily than ESTps who generally are quite calm.

[XoX]

It's my fault, I should have explained my reasoning better.

Anyhow, being new to socionics and still trying to understand the basic differences of the types, I'm trying to understand the differences between ExTp's. Since both have Fi as polr, I would assume some similarities exist in how they conduct their interpersonal relations. What I really was getting at was whether confrontational behaviour was more typical of ESTp's than ENTp's (ie. in a random sampling of situations, is the ESTp more willing to use direct language to achieve his goals? Do ENTp's ever try to achieve their goals in a direct way or do they achieve them in a more round-about way?). I know in the end it comes down to differences in individuals, but since we're working within the context of socionics, we should assume certain tendencies in individuals attributable to their type.

I hope that clears things up, I hope I didn't cause too much trouble.

ESTps are more direct. However I wouldn't call this "aggressive" really. Just direct and confrontational in the sense of being very direct. ENTps are more volatile and chaotic. This is true even in the display of aggression. ESTps are more in control of themselves.

[XoX]

ESTps are more direct. However I wouldn't call this "aggressive" really. Just direct and confrontational in the sense of being very direct. ENTps are more volatile and chaotic. This is true even in the display of aggression. ESTps are more in control of themselves.

I guess it comes down to ENTp's valuing Ne>Se. So, do ENTp's ever have clearly dileneated goals towards which they strive albeit in a chaotic and volatile way? I guess at the heart of this is really the difference between a senser and an intuiter. Are we justified in saying that Se types are more goal oriented than Ne types, or are Se types just more inclined to pursue goals in a direct fashion?

Reinin strategic types are more goal oriented than Reinin tactical types. ESTp is strategic type. ENTps, imho, are very bad at pursuing long term goals unless the goals "come to them". ENTps are good at responding to challenges in their environment and in a right kind of environment providing them challenges which lead them towards a bigger goal they can at least seem goal oriented. But if left alone ENTps just run in circles without knowing what to pursuit.

[Sol]

@Chin Diaper 007
you may notice your F by IR effects with T/F types IRL
other approaches may keep your misleading forever

[Alomoes]

@Chin Diaper 007
you may notice your F by IR effects with T/F types IRL
other approaches may keep your misleading forever

Speak english or nerd. Nobody here understands cult speech.

Old thread, by the way. There's a response here that's from 2007.

Also, yeah, wallflower can I be, however in normal situations, I tend to gravitate towards the center of attention for god knows how or why.

[Blaze]

ESTps are more direct. However I wouldn't call this "aggressive" really. Just direct and confrontational in the sense of being very direct. ENTps are more volatile and chaotic. This is true even in the display of aggression. ESTps are more in control of themselves.

I guess it comes down to ENTp's valuing Ne>Se. So, do ENTp's ever have clearly dileneated goals towards which they strive albeit in a chaotic and volatile way? I guess at the heart of this is really the difference between a senser and an intuiter. Are we justified in saying that Se types are more goal oriented than Ne types, or are Se types just more inclined to pursue goals in a direct fashion?

Reinin strategic types are more goal oriented than Reinin tactical types. ESTp is strategic type. ENTps, imho, are very bad at pursuing long term goals unless the goals "come to them". ENTps are good at responding to challenges in their environment and in a right kind of environment providing them challenges which lead them towards a bigger goal they can at least seem goal oriented. But if left alone ENTps just run in circles without knowing what to pursuit.

i don't agree with this.

estp's can be very impulsive, and, in the process of moving toward their goals, self destruct. so they achieve their goals but with unanticipated, self destructive consequences. they think that everyone else is stupid and incapable so they do not adequately anticipate the strength of others and how others will respond to their maneuvers. they trust no one, but think that everybody is an idiot. estp's get screwed in their goals when they have not taken into account other's strengths and abilities.

entp's can run in circles before they have made up their minds about what they want. when they are exploring a lot of possibilities (and this happens esp when they are younger). at these times they will seem unfocused and all over the place. but once they have made up their minds will move toward their goals strategically and with will and determination. entp's trust everyone, and see others' strengths and potentials easily. so entp's get screwed in their goals when their trust has not been well placed.

[Expat]

estp's can be very impulsive, and, in the process of moving toward their goals, self destruct. so they achieve their goals but with unanticipated, self destructive consequences. they think that everyone else is stupid and incapable so they do not adequately anticipate the strength of others and how others will respond to their maneuvers. they trust no one, but think that everybody is an idiot. estp's get screwed in their goals when they have not taken into account other's strengths and abilities.

rather than not take into account others' strengths and abilities, isn't it rather that they don't take into account the consequences of their actions, especially regarding how others view them?

Marlon Brando wrote in his memoirs how, in his first phase as big star, he could get away with anything once the movie was well into shooting, since the studios would never fire him and lose the money they had already spent. Amazingly, he did not seem to realize that that worked only for that movie; that the longer-term consequence was the increasing reluctance of studios to cast him at all -- which explains his "limbo" period of 9 years between Mutiny in the Bounty and The Godfather. Even decades later, he still didn't seem to make the connection.

entp's can run in circles before they have made up their minds about what they want. when they are exploring a lot of possibilities (and this happens esp when they are younger). at these times they will seem unfocused and all over the place. but once they have made up their minds will move toward their goals strategically and with will and determination. entp's trust everyone, and see others' strengths and potentials easily. so entp's get screwed in their goals when their trust has not been well placed.

That makes sense.

[Blaze]

rather than not take into account others' strengths and abilities, isn't it rather that they don't take into account the consequences of their actions, especially regarding how others view them?

yes i do see this as well...that others get to know their tactics over time and move to respond. but they still underestimate the strength of others and how far others can be pushed before they will push back. with force. trust me, i know.