Differences between ILE-ENTp and SLE-ESTp

[xerx]

^^^ Just sounds like impulsiveness, not unique to PoLR.

It's practically the definition of Fi PoLR. Ti PoLR would be impulsive in the implied sense, but about Ti related stuff.

ILEs seem more child-like, wide-eyed, clueless about it. ILEs *might* be more inclined than SLEs to be sad if they knew how their comment was coming across? That could be wrong though. Maybe it's just the ones I know.

That's actually true of me and a few other ILEs. We have a better idea of how our comments can come across because of Ne (still nowhere near as good as IEEs), since we can keep track of other people's mental states better than anyone else.

[strrrng]

since we can keep track of other people's mental states better than anyone else.

how does this follow from what you said?

[mfckr]

That's actually true of me and a few other ILEs. We have a better idea of how our comments can come across because of Ne (still nowhere near as good as IEEs), since we can keep track of other people's mental states better than anyone else.

Lol. You guys just think you do.

[xerx]

how does this follow from what you said?

Ne has a lot to do with modeling other people's world views and understanding how they fit together. It's like having a rough static snapshot or blueprint of someone's mind, his interests, values, potential to solve different problems and even intelligence. All that is an open book to me.

Ne interprets this mental state as static and unchangeable (but it'll probably change with more interaction). So it's about understanding how someone organizes his thoughts and internalizes information, his internal software or hardware.

ILEs have about 1/∞ of the abilities of IEEs to understand people, but we're pretty comfortable understanding those that are affected by social hierarchies and classification schemes (Ti), group dynamics and emotional expression (Fe), as well as Ne, Te and Ni (sort of). These IEs help pinpoint their personality.

bs. Ni is also good at guessing other people's mental states, NiFe even more so. That said, what an NiFe would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state and what an NeFi would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state differ significantly. So really, IEEs would do best at the kind of monitoring of someone's mental state that you're talking about, but an IEI, EIE, or EII might be able to accomplish an equal level of results.

I'm sure that's mostly true and I never implied that other types weren't sharp psychoanalysts, but..

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

Ne literally hones in on the aspects of the mental state that are static and don't change, like interests and such. Hence mental "state".

Lol. You guys just think you do.

Does an ESE only "think" they can change the emotional atmosphere in a room? Even if they fail, they can still make a big splash. Granted, what I do is based a bit more trial and error since it's essentially abstract and external to the self, but it's quite informative still.

[strrrng]

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

yes, but these changes are always seen as manifestations of an inherent process. Fe is the function that monitors the different 'frequencies'; Ni just aligns them in ways to filter out the basic mechanics.

while Ne retains a fairly consistent picture of a person's latent qualities, I don't see it ever really 'summing things up.' rather, it seems to draw blueprints and make measurements, then refine.

[xerx]

I do the same things (I gather that most other humans do too, being that accurate 'theory of mind' appraisals are essential to interpersonal interaction of any meaningful kind). Though I'd assume significant contrasts exist in the nuances and specifics for how we go about doing this. Which I think is where IM process distinctions become most relevant/interesting; in the underlying operational means of human action, not so much in its directed ends. The latter determination doesn't appear as strongly type-dependent in my experience.

With all due respect, you're not very good at it. There is no method to it either.

[mfckr]

With all due respect, you're not very good at it. There is no method to it either.

Who the hell ever said there was a method?

[mfckr]

Ne has a lot to do with modeling other people's world views and understanding how they fit together. It's like having a rough static snapshot or blueprint of someone's mind, his interests, values, potential to solve different problems and even intelligence. All that is an open book to me.

I do the same things (I gather that most other humans do too, being that accurate 'theory of mind' appraisals are essential to interpersonal interaction of any meaningful kind). Though I'd assume significant contrasts exist in the nuances and specifics for how we go about doing this. Which I think is where IM process distinctions become most relevant/interesting; in the underlying operational means of human action, not so much in its directed ends. The latter determination doesn't appear as strongly type-dependent in my experience.

Ne interprets this mental state as static and unchangeable (but it'll probably change with more interaction). So it's about understanding how someone organizes his thoughts and internalizes information, his internal software or hardware.

ILEs have about 1/∞ of the abilities of IEEs to understand people, but we're pretty comfortable understanding those that are affected by social hierarchies and classification schemes (Ti), group dynamics and emotional expression (Fe), as well as Ne, Te and Ni (sort of). These IEs help pinpoint their personality.

I'm sure that's mostly true and I never implied that other types weren't sharp psychoanalysts, but..

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

Ne literally hones in on the aspects of the mental state that are static and don't change, like interests and such. Hence mental "state".

I think I see others' psychology along the lines of it being some evolving mix of interdependent strata; one's fixed and effectively invariant properties being situated towards the core, with the increasingly variable properties ranging out peripherally. Not that I actively juggle every component of this in my mind whenever I'm thinking of someone. But the overall rubric for how I end up classing, sorting, and making sense of others breaks down into:

Nature - Certain innate personal qualities, perhaps acquired by accident of heredity, or maybe considered an expression of one's "nature," "essence," or "soul." These can only be sensed indirectly, they are hopelessly ineffable, but permanent across lifespan AFAIK.
Character - Systemically rooted emotional outlooks induced during early critical formative stages of existence that go on to silently comprise the ulterior foundation of a person's values, ethics, principles, and beliefs in life—whether they know it or not.
Personality (not Socionics) - Conditioned imprints and behavioral strategies forged through collisions with familial upbringing and social enculturation. A series of interactions that ultimately converges into parameters defining one's self-esteem, personal hobbies/interests, and resultant persona. Greater malleability and potential for self-change exists here, however.
Disposition - The "long term moods" that set an overarching tone/color/theme on a person's experiential awareness. Can be negative or positive, generally induced by either prolonged stress or prolonged satisfaction. One may not always be acutely conscious of its influence upon them; mindfulness can render it a useful barometer of conscience for gauging whether one is making good/bad key decisions in life.
Mood - The generally transient ups and downs that occur in response to localized and immediate situations and circumstances. AKA, the stuff gets accused of tinkering w/ the most. Self-explanatory I think.
Mental State - That which is contending with the exigent information processing demands of the moment. A dynamical cognitive portrait continuously emerging from the composition of one's current thoughts, impressions, reactions, objects of attention, focal priorities, and active motives.

[xerx]

That method:

Nature - Certain innate personal qualities, perhaps acquired by accident of heredity, or maybe considered an expression of one's "nature," "essence," or "soul." These can only be sensed indirectly, they are hopelessly ineffable, but permanent across lifespan AFAIK.
Character - Systemically rooted emotional outlooks induced during early critical formative stages of existence that go on to silently comprise the ulterior foundation of a person's values, ethics, principles, and beliefs in life—whether they know it or not.
Personality (not Socionics) - Conditioned imprints and behavioral strategies forged through collisions with familial upbringing and social enculturation. A series of interactions that ultimately converges into parameters defining one's self-esteem, personal hobbies/interests, and resultant persona. Greater malleability and potential for self-change exists here, however.
Disposition - The "long term moods" that set an overarching tone/color/theme on a person's experiential awareness. Can be negative or positive, generally induced by either prolonged stress or prolonged satisfaction. One may not always be acutely conscious of its influence upon them; mindfulness can render it a useful barometer of conscience for gauging whether one is making good/bad key decisions in life.
Mood - The generally transient ups and downs that occur in response to localized and immediate situations and circumstances. AKA, the stuff gets accused of tinkering w/ the most. Self-explanatory I think.
Mental State - That which is contending with the exigent information processing demands of the moment. A dynamical cognitive portrait continuously emerging from the composition of one's current thoughts, impressions, reactions, objects of attention, focal priorities, and active motives.

Too definitiony, bleh.

[strrrng]

That method:



Too definitiony, bleh.

agreed

[mfckr]

Lol ugh you guys are just being hyper-literal and boring. It wasn't at all meant to be read like a cookie-cutter.

[wasp]

Ne has a lot to do with modeling other people's world views and understanding how they fit together. It's like having a rough static snapshot or blueprint of someone's mind, his interests, values, potential to solve different problems and even intelligence. All that is an open book to me.

i'm high-key necroing this thread so i realize the chances of this member still being active today are low, but i don't fully agree with the point made above. i think it depends entirely on the level of intelligence/experience of said Ne-ego type. i've talked to a few while they're "sizing [someone] up" and most of their observations rely on the idea that the dots will connect similarly for everyone, not realizing that some people will have different reasons for (seemingly) doing the same things, yet they still naively apply these generalizations to everyone all the same. this puts the Ne-ego under the (false) impression that they've successfully sized everyone up... because Ne, like Se, only sees what's there, but they're unaware of what goes on "under the hood" except, in the case of Ne, where they're able to deduce the "why" behind the "what", but they can't do that unless they know the "what" - so sometimes it can look, to me, as if they're forcing people into these generalizations rather than actually being correct in their observations. like yeah, you're correct in thinking that person will be angry if you shit on their front doorstep, but i think that rings true for most people, so i'm not sure how you assigning this specific "trigger" to that specific person is a ground-breaking discovery, captain ob(li)vious.


as for the key differences between ILEs and SLEs, this is what i've observed, but it's based solely on my own experiences:

ILEs switch interests way more frequently than SLEs do - one day it's thermodynamics, next day it's the gulf war. both like to argue for the sake of it, but ILEs argue the underlying mechanisms of your argument, poking holes in them, whereas SLEs attack your argument. with that said, it can seem as if ILEs are arguing with the audience in mind, whereas SLEs are arguing with you in particular. ILEs go from being all there to nowhere, whereas SLEs have more stable "presence" levels. ILEs have a strong intellectual presence, whereas SLEs have a strong physical presence. ILEs can strategically start shit without it ever being traced back to them, whereas SLEs will always be dead center. both types will rape someone at one point in their lives, that's inevitable, but SLEs will leave a trail behind that'll eventually catch up to them and land them in prison, whereas ILEs will mental gymnastics their rape victim into thinking it was their idea. this is because ILEs rely on intrigue, such as luring their victim into an alley, whereas SLEs rely on force, such as hiding in the alley and pouncing on their victim. watch out for "smoke and mirrors" tactics with ILEs - nobody controls the input and output of information quite like an ILE. ILEs are strangely romantic creatures, whereas SLEs have more of an "everyman" quality to them. ILEs will always keep you guessing, but you'll probably be able "size up" an SLE pretty quickly. ILEs craftily plant ideas in your head - like a little fairy bzzzing around your noggin - whereas SLEs quite literally pound ideas into your head, like a swift ax to the noggin.

[thePirate]

Lol. You guys just think you do.

I find the majority rather oblivious tbh

although there are traces of some very good insight here and there

but overall? rather disappointing

[thePirate]

maybe it was because of what strrrng said that I also sense in them, I feel like theres two parts to psychoanalysis/mental state tracking - putting the dots on the map, and connecting those dots

ILEs are more oncerned with putting those dots on the map; which is good for alot of purposes but when talking specifically about psychoanalysis a different approach seems more ideal - alot of times puting those dots there aren't even relevant to the situation

Although Im sure that to them, us Ni types are missing the picture so

[silverchris9]

That's actually true of me and a few other ILEs. We have a better idea of how our comments can come across because of Ne (still nowhere near as good as IEEs), since we can keep track of other people's mental states better than anyone else.

bs. Ni is also good at guessing other people's mental states, NiFe even more so. That said, what an NiFe would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state and what an NeFi would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state differ significantly. So really, IEEs would do best at the kind of monitoring of someone's mental state that you're talking about, but an IEI, EIE, or EII might be able to accomplish an equal level of results.

[mfckr]

bs. Ni is also good at guessing other people's mental states, NiFe even more so. That said, what an NiFe would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state and what an NeFi would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state differ significantly. So really, IEEs would do best at the kind of monitoring of someone's mental state that you're talking about, but an IEI, EIE, or EII might be able to accomplish an equal level of results.

Yeah, I actually do believe gives the greatest edge in accurate awareness of others' mental states.

Though I think you're going to be generally better at reading people of your own quadra regardless. and confuse the shit out of each other quite frequently.