Differences between ILE-ENTp and SLE-ESTp

[xerx]

how does this follow from what you said?

Ne has a lot to do with modeling other people's world views and understanding how they fit together. It's like having a rough static snapshot or blueprint of someone's mind, his interests, values, potential to solve different problems and even intelligence. All that is an open book to me.

Ne interprets this mental state as static and unchangeable (but it'll probably change with more interaction). So it's about understanding how someone organizes his thoughts and internalizes information, his internal software or hardware.

ILEs have about 1/∞ of the abilities of IEEs to understand people, but we're pretty comfortable understanding those that are affected by social hierarchies and classification schemes (Ti), group dynamics and emotional expression (Fe), as well as Ne, Te and Ni (sort of). These IEs help pinpoint their personality.

bs. Ni is also good at guessing other people's mental states, NiFe even more so. That said, what an NiFe would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state and what an NeFi would consider the important aspects of a person's mental state differ significantly. So really, IEEs would do best at the kind of monitoring of someone's mental state that you're talking about, but an IEI, EIE, or EII might be able to accomplish an equal level of results.

I'm sure that's mostly true and I never implied that other types weren't sharp psychoanalysts, but..

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

Ne literally hones in on the aspects of the mental state that are static and don't change, like interests and such. Hence mental "state".

Lol. You guys just think you do.

Does an ESE only "think" they can change the emotional atmosphere in a room? Even if they fail, they can still make a big splash. Granted, what I do is based a bit more trial and error since it's essentially abstract and external to the self, but it's quite informative still.

[strrrng]

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

yes, but these changes are always seen as manifestations of an inherent process. Fe is the function that monitors the different 'frequencies'; Ni just aligns them in ways to filter out the basic mechanics.

while Ne retains a fairly consistent picture of a person's latent qualities, I don't see it ever really 'summing things up.' rather, it seems to draw blueprints and make measurements, then refine.

[mfckr]

Ne has a lot to do with modeling other people's world views and understanding how they fit together. It's like having a rough static snapshot or blueprint of someone's mind, his interests, values, potential to solve different problems and even intelligence. All that is an open book to me.

I do the same things (I gather that most other humans do too, being that accurate 'theory of mind' appraisals are essential to interpersonal interaction of any meaningful kind). Though I'd assume significant contrasts exist in the nuances and specifics for how we go about doing this. Which I think is where IM process distinctions become most relevant/interesting; in the underlying operational means of human action, not so much in its directed ends. The latter determination doesn't appear as strongly type-dependent in my experience.

Ne interprets this mental state as static and unchangeable (but it'll probably change with more interaction). So it's about understanding how someone organizes his thoughts and internalizes information, his internal software or hardware.

ILEs have about 1/∞ of the abilities of IEEs to understand people, but we're pretty comfortable understanding those that are affected by social hierarchies and classification schemes (Ti), group dynamics and emotional expression (Fe), as well as Ne, Te and Ni (sort of). These IEs help pinpoint their personality.

I'm sure that's mostly true and I never implied that other types weren't sharp psychoanalysts, but..

Ni is dynamic so it focuses more on the changing aspects of the mental world. Mental wanderings can change due to a certain input -- e.g. a particular Fe atmosphere is conducive to some internal reflections but not conducive to others. Although I imagine an input isn't necessary for that to happen.

Ne literally hones in on the aspects of the mental state that are static and don't change, like interests and such. Hence mental "state".

I think I see others' psychology along the lines of it being some evolving mix of interdependent strata; one's fixed and effectively invariant properties being situated towards the core, with the increasingly variable properties ranging out peripherally. Not that I actively juggle every component of this in my mind whenever I'm thinking of someone. But the overall rubric for how I end up classing, sorting, and making sense of others breaks down into:

Nature - Certain innate personal qualities, perhaps acquired by accident of heredity, or maybe considered an expression of one's "nature," "essence," or "soul." These can only be sensed indirectly, they are hopelessly ineffable, but permanent across lifespan AFAIK.
Character - Systemically rooted emotional outlooks induced during early critical formative stages of existence that go on to silently comprise the ulterior foundation of a person's values, ethics, principles, and beliefs in life—whether they know it or not.
Personality (not Socionics) - Conditioned imprints and behavioral strategies forged through collisions with familial upbringing and social enculturation. A series of interactions that ultimately converges into parameters defining one's self-esteem, personal hobbies/interests, and resultant persona. Greater malleability and potential for self-change exists here, however.
Disposition - The "long term moods" that set an overarching tone/color/theme on a person's experiential awareness. Can be negative or positive, generally induced by either prolonged stress or prolonged satisfaction. One may not always be acutely conscious of its influence upon them; mindfulness can render it a useful barometer of conscience for gauging whether one is making good/bad key decisions in life.
Mood - The generally transient ups and downs that occur in response to localized and immediate situations and circumstances. AKA, the stuff gets accused of tinkering w/ the most. Self-explanatory I think.
Mental State - That which is contending with the exigent information processing demands of the moment. A dynamical cognitive portrait continuously emerging from the composition of one's current thoughts, impressions, reactions, objects of attention, focal priorities, and active motives.

[xerx]

I do the same things (I gather that most other humans do too, being that accurate 'theory of mind' appraisals are essential to interpersonal interaction of any meaningful kind). Though I'd assume significant contrasts exist in the nuances and specifics for how we go about doing this. Which I think is where IM process distinctions become most relevant/interesting; in the underlying operational means of human action, not so much in its directed ends. The latter determination doesn't appear as strongly type-dependent in my experience.

With all due respect, you're not very good at it. There is no method to it either.

[mfckr]

With all due respect, you're not very good at it. There is no method to it either.

Who the hell ever said there was a method?

[thePirate]

Lol. You guys just think you do.

I find the majority rather oblivious tbh

although there are traces of some very good insight here and there

but overall? rather disappointing

[thePirate]

maybe it was because of what strrrng said that I also sense in them, I feel like theres two parts to psychoanalysis/mental state tracking - putting the dots on the map, and connecting those dots

ILEs are more oncerned with putting those dots on the map; which is good for alot of purposes but when talking specifically about psychoanalysis a different approach seems more ideal - alot of times puting those dots there aren't even relevant to the situation

Although Im sure that to them, us Ni types are missing the picture so

[xerx]

That method:

Nature - Certain innate personal qualities, perhaps acquired by accident of heredity, or maybe considered an expression of one's "nature," "essence," or "soul." These can only be sensed indirectly, they are hopelessly ineffable, but permanent across lifespan AFAIK.
Character - Systemically rooted emotional outlooks induced during early critical formative stages of existence that go on to silently comprise the ulterior foundation of a person's values, ethics, principles, and beliefs in life—whether they know it or not.
Personality (not Socionics) - Conditioned imprints and behavioral strategies forged through collisions with familial upbringing and social enculturation. A series of interactions that ultimately converges into parameters defining one's self-esteem, personal hobbies/interests, and resultant persona. Greater malleability and potential for self-change exists here, however.
Disposition - The "long term moods" that set an overarching tone/color/theme on a person's experiential awareness. Can be negative or positive, generally induced by either prolonged stress or prolonged satisfaction. One may not always be acutely conscious of its influence upon them; mindfulness can render it a useful barometer of conscience for gauging whether one is making good/bad key decisions in life.
Mood - The generally transient ups and downs that occur in response to localized and immediate situations and circumstances. AKA, the stuff gets accused of tinkering w/ the most. Self-explanatory I think.
Mental State - That which is contending with the exigent information processing demands of the moment. A dynamical cognitive portrait continuously emerging from the composition of one's current thoughts, impressions, reactions, objects of attention, focal priorities, and active motives.

Too definitiony, bleh.

[strrrng]

That method:



Too definitiony, bleh.

agreed

[mfckr]

Lol ugh you guys are just being hyper-literal and boring. It wasn't at all meant to be read like a cookie-cutter.

[strrrng]

lol. it was written like one, though. despite it being clear what you were alluding to, the definitions still seemed a bit dry and unnecessary.

[mfckr]

lol. it was written like one, though. despite it being clear what you were alluding to, the definitions still seemed a bit dry and unnecessary.

Lol. It was self-entertaining.

[redbaron]

Lol. It was self-entertaining.

you were entertained by that?

[mfckr]

you were entertained by that?

I frequently use forum posts as an excuse to clarify my own thoughts regarding something. Else I'd never be motivated to make posts.

[Satan]

About ILEs:

Sometimes Fi-polr makes ILEs quite the opposite of the stereotype about them. It's the other extreme.

One ILE was very upset when he heard that a colleague of him had had sex with a prostitute. They where not friends or anything, but the ILE said that he had "lost all respect for him" because of what he did. Other people who heard about this were just "yeah, whatever...".

Some ILEs can act almost too polite in unexpected situations. Saying things like "thank you" and "please" when I think it's not really needed. Of course ILEs can use politeness as irony, but sometimes there's something else going on.

And of course the thing about treating everybody as a friend. Sometimes this strengthens the duality experience of "already knowing each other" that I can have with them.

that's the gay ones.

[silverchris9]

I frequently use forum posts as an excuse to clarify my own thoughts regarding something. Else I'd never be motivated to make posts.

Ditto x1000.

EDIT: I don't feel like you're supervising me. Start supervising me, dammit!

[mfckr]

EDIT: I don't feel like you're supervising me. Start supervising me, dammit!

What, am I not living up to my reputation as scourge of the INFp race?

Lol. I tend to think Supervision is something that avails itself in more involved levels of interaction (though the same could perhaps be said for any intertype). More than a few INFps had remarked in the past that my presence unsettles them with a generally inhibiting effect. Which always surprises me and makes me feel bad lol :\. Ask BnD about it.

I know they don't all share this reaction though (or at least I assume). As with all this shit, experiences vary wildly depending on the convergence in attitudes, values, interests, mental health, etc. between both parties.

[Beautiful sky]

Fi polr in ILEs seems to manifest more in a blithe, social awkwardness, where silly/absurd things are said/done as some haphazard means to gauge a social 'position.' it also has a more consistent quality, as they are looking for Si, and so will test changing boundaries in various ways. it sometimes feels childish, as if they simply want to see how they can prod you.

SLEs seem to be more unwittingly aloof and unconcerned with basic personal boundaries and social rules. the disregard for this comes as a price for the constant gauging of different power positions, and they often overstep themselves, undermining whatever temporary gain they believed their action to offer. however, I do find their ability to overlook people past a degree of basic usefulness to be... helpful, as it allows me to communicate with them from an objective standpoint, and build a more effective strategy.

This is really interesting because I met an ILE at a party who stood at the sidelines all night long and did not even attempt to engage in a social contact with anyone except for his SEI wife.

My SLE cousin will make silly things, like acting out without control in body dancing sort of silly displays. It upsets me because it seems that he can't be serious and not do these things in inappropriate settings. I'll watch my LSE cousin and how serious she will be; even though she may say gruff things, she will never get up and make a spectacle of herself.

[Beautiful sky]

One ILE woman who is a teacher of philosophy is very rigid about "correct" behavior and she is very vocal about it. At an informal gathering someone took a picture and she immediately protested: "Please erase the picture from your camera, I want you to ask before taking pictures of me".

At the same gathering some of the men took their shirts off because the sun was shining and we were sitting outside. Later she commented on this in a negative way, making connections to the equality between the sexes, because as a woman, she would not be able to expose her upper body in the same way in a social situation. Then she philosophized about this for some time, about the social consequences of the sexual connotations of womens breasts, and what to do about it etc.

This is SLI behavior.

[redbaron]

Lol. I tend to think Supervision is something that avails itself in more involved levels of interaction (though the same could perhaps be said for any intertype).

agreed.

More than a few INFps had remarked in the past that my presence unsettles them with a generally inhibiting effect. Which always surprises me and makes me feel bad lol

I feel this way about a couple LIEs I know in real life, but not on the forum.

[Blaze]

That said, the experimental aspect is still quite accurate imo. I think it comes out most in new social circumstances. Myself and my ILE friend share in common a tendency to steamroll social awkwardness. We dislike the feeling of awkward silences or people's social discomfort so we kind of pretend we're overly familiar with everyone and throw caution to the wind. It's kind of a "what do I have to lose?" attitude. That frequently results in trumping awkward with awkward, but we're completely willing to shrug that off at our own expense. Again, it comes back to this idea of making a mockery of taboo. Everythings awkward? Well why don't we point out how awkward it is by being EVEN MORE AWKWARD. We don't mind breaking the ice by being outrageously inappropriate.

totally.

i agree with Nowisthetime, too. someones we overcompensate our Fi polr by becoming overly stupidly rigid about what we think is Fi kind of stuff. trying to follow the rules i suppose. which we can only do for brief moments. lol

[silverchris9]

What, am I not living up to my reputation as scourge of the INFp race?

Lol. I tend to think Supervision is something that avails itself in more involved levels of interaction (though the same could perhaps be said for any intertype). More than a few INFps had remarked in the past that my presence unsettles them with a generally inhibiting effect. Which always surprises me and makes me feel bad lol :\. Ask BnD about it.

I know they don't all share this reaction though (or at least I assume). As with all this shit, experiences vary wildly depending on the convergence in attitudes, values, interests, mental health, etc. between both parties.

Huh. That generally inhibiting effect thing is pretty interesting. I would agree that most intertype relations require closer interaction. Like my IEE mom, we get along great and generally agree until it's time to talk about a "serious topic," and then we notice that our approaches are totally opposite.

[redbaron]

Huh. That generally inhibiting effect thing is pretty interesting. I would agree that most intertype relations require closer interaction. Like my IEE mom, we get along great and generally agree until it's time to talk about a "serious topic," and then we notice that our approaches are totally opposite.

My mom is IEE too. ha What type is your dad? (mine is SEI-Fe)

[silverchris9]

My mom is IEE too. ha What type is your dad? (mine is SEI-Fe)

LXI-Ti. I was convinced for a while that he was LII (and he's a very tech-y person, sort of a stereotypical NT), but more and more LSI seems likely. He's hilariously Ti/Fe, clearly has weak Fi and strong Ti, clearly values Ti over Te. It seems bizarre that conflictors would get married (and I think they were actually together for 10 years) and in some ways my dad makes more sense as my mom's supervisor than as her conflictor, but then, he's sort of everyone's supervisor. I was convinced he had weak Se, but now that I think about it, Ne-polr really fits better. Beneficiary and activity, from a purely description-based perspective, both fit us equally well. Also, interestingly enough, my (paternal) grandfather is probably IEI (and my grandmother is probably alpha, SEI over ESE).

[redbaron]

LXI-Ti. I was convinced for a while that he was LII (and he's a very tech-y person, sort of a stereotypical NT), but more and more LSI seems likely. He's hilariously Ti/Fe, clearly has weak Fi and strong Ti, clearly values Ti over Te. It seems bizarre that conflictors would get married (and I think they were actually together for 10 years) and in some ways my dad makes more sense as my mom's supervisor than as her conflictor, but then, he's sort of everyone's supervisor. I was convinced he had weak Se, but now that I think about it, Ne-polr really fits better. Beneficiary and activity, from a purely description-based perspective, both fit us equally well. Also, interestingly enough, my (paternal) grandfather is probably IEI (and my grandmother is probably alpha, SEI over ESE).

interesting. I have an IEI grandfather also. And I think my grandma is ILE. On the other side of the family my grandma is ESE and my grandpa was LII.

are either of your parents remarried?

[silverchris9]

interesting. I have an IEI grandfather also. And I think my grandma is ILE. On the other side of the family my grandma is ESE and my grandpa was LII.

are either of your parents remarried?

My dad is remarried, to a probable LSE, definitely Te/Fi over Fe/Ti, and she seems like an extroverted logical type. My mom isn't remarried but she's been dating the same guy (alpha SF) forever.

[Azure Flame]

What's the difference?

I ask because I Identify more with ILE even though I love sensory pleasures.

I also seem to get along with ISFp's a lot more often than INFp's. INFp's seem to deactivate me as per the illusionary partner relationship.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

It's thoroughly possible to be an Intuitive type and love sensory pleasures.

[mu4]

I think the fact you ask this question make you less likely a ego.

[ashlesha]

I think the fact you ask this question make you less likely a ego.

y?

[Azure Flame]

I think the fact you ask this question make you less likely a ego.

I think my general lack of knowledge on the subject matter is the reason.

In myers briggs, I'm like, smack dab in the middle between ESTP and ENTP.

[squirreltual]

Seems a fair enough question.

In tests I'll often score SLE as a close second. I appear to be more interested in power than other ILEs and probably cultivated an SLE persona to dip in and out of. Perhaps E8-ness is clouding the issue?

[mu4]

Just a intuition.

[aixelsyd]

One values Se/Ni the other Ne/Si. As for finding yourself there, well, you'll figure out that eventually.

I hope you found my reply enlightening. If not, I suggest you meditate on it until you do.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Could you post a picture for VI? Imho, ILE and SLE are two of the easiest to tell apart visually.

SLEs like to appear stylish, sometimes over-the-top, in-fashion, and professional, and have that stare that commands respect.

ILEs appear much more laid-back, friendly, approachable, and day-dreamy.

A few pictures could easily solve this problem.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Could you post a picture for VI? Imho, ILE and SLE are two of the easiest to tell apart visually.

SLEs like to appear stylish, sometimes over-the-top, in-fashion, and professional, and have that stare that commands respect.

ILEs appear much more laid-back, friendly, approachable, and day-dreamy.

A few pictures could easily solve this problem.

Type differentiation is not as simple as posting a picture.

DJ, I personally found and easier to choose from than and .

[Radio]

op u do not value ne whatsoever, aside from the fact that u seem incredibly resistant towards ne centric ideas you seem generally more physically present and focused than i would expect entps to be. theres also a certain smoothness to the way you present yourself, like u dont hesitate or doubt before you speak which is something i associate w beta sts. you're kind of not dorky enough to be entp and i dont see (m)any parallels w u and other selftyped entps here

[Creepy-male]

One values Se/Ni the other Ne/Si. As for finding yourself there, well, you'll figure out that eventually.

I hope you found my reply enlightening. If not, I suggest you meditate on it until you do.

This...

this is the key, now open the door in your mind

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

and don't forget: lube,lube,lube!

[silke]

--outdated--